May 25, 2022

EYES OF IRVIN KERSH: The Empire Strikes Back

JOSH, JON and MURRAY take on the sacred bantha of Star Wars movies. You love it, we know.


JOSH, JON, and MURRAY discuss why THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK is the best Star Wars movie...and why it wasn't supposed to be. Do we slay the sacred bantha of Star Wars fandom? Find out in this super-sized episode!

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Josh: Welcome to Trash Compactor. I'm Josh. And today I'm joined by Jon

[00:00:11] Jon: Hello.

[00:00:11] Josh: And Murray

[00:00:12] Murray: Oh, hello.

[00:00:13] Josh: the three of us are going to be talking about The Empire Strikes Back. The second Star Wars film made and the fifth entry in the saga, if you're under that sort of thing story by George Lucas, screenplay by Lawrence Kasdan and Leigh Bracket directed by Irvin Kershner. I don't think it's controversial to say that this is pretty much considered the gold standard of Star Wars movies.

[00:00:32] Right.

[00:00:32] Murray: I'm a huge Star Wars fan. Don't get me wrong by this is the sole reason that everybody thinks Star Wars is better than it is.

[00:00:39] Jon: Yes, this is the gold standard that fucked up the entire

[00:00:42] franchise.

[00:00:43] Josh: We are all in agreement that Empire Strikes Back is the best Star Wars movie.

[00:00:47] Murray: Oh yeah, yeah,

[00:00:49] Josh: Okay. Wow. All right.

[00:00:50] Murray: For me, I guess I'm like super basic in the sense that the only other contenders are from the original trilogy but even that, the step down would be like, for me, A New Hope, but that's such a big step down, like from how good this movie

[00:01:02] is

[00:01:02] Jon: I feel like the people that prefer A New Hope or the ones that were first wave I saw in the movie theater, I'd never saw anything like it before and the blew their skulls apart. And therefore there's a special place in their hearts for the first time.

[00:01:16] Murray: It's like the first album of a band you hear

[00:01:18] could be their worst one, but then it's going to be your favorite of theirs. Yeah.

[00:01:21] Josh: Here's the interesting thing about that. I agree that Empire Strikes Back is the best Star Wars movie at the end of the day. I had a conversation Last week and the order that listeners will hear this, with two of my childhood friends where we discuss the original Star Wars as a movie.

[00:01:35] And one of the things that I think this movie ruins about the original Star Wars is that the original Star Wars is this weird experimental standalone movie that works more effectively when there are no other sequels

[00:01:50] Murray: Yeah. Like the matrix one.

[00:01:52] Josh: yeah.

[00:01:52] Part of what's so experimental about it is this idea that you are walking into a random part of a story already in progress, you don't have any context for what's going on. You jump in like in media res or whatever the term is, and it's up to you to catch up.

[00:02:08] You don't know what's going on. it's specifically a random episode of an ongoing serial that's the conceit of the movie what this movie does is literalizes that. And in retrospect, retroactively, robs some of what makes the original Star Wars

[00:02:23] so interesting and so unique.

[00:02:25] Jon: I don't know if I would agree with that I feel like you just caught the program late. You didn't see the first couple of episodes you're watching TV and you're like, oh my God, what is this amazing show?

[00:02:34] So you start watching it there. And then Empire would just be in the next episode.

[00:02:38] Murray: I

[00:02:39] Jon: think that robs the first one of its glory. The first one works very well still.

[00:02:43] Murray: With my Matrix comparison The Matrix as a whole kind of gets not as high praise as if The Matrix 1 was the only movie. And of course, obviously Star Wars is massive and it gets like a ton of praise, but the sequels of it lessened how great it was and

[00:03:04] so but with Star Wars, the first one's great. No matter how you slice it, but I, that's why I, if I'm understanding you, I I could see that it took something special and then by comparison, everything in Empire did what was so special in Star Wars, but did it better.

[00:03:19] Josh: So something that I think is really cool about The Empire Strikes Back as a sequel to Star Wars, is that it's not the expected sequel. It could have been really easy just to do Star Wars 2 and just do the same thing over again. And George Lucas really has to get the credit for this.

[00:03:34] The Empire Strikes Back is completely different then the original Star Wars and it actually this didn't even occur to me until I was rewatching it in preparation for this, literally from the first minute or so the ice planet is the literal opposite of the desert planet from Star Wars.

[00:03:50] Maybe that's so obvious that I never thought to have the thought I don't know.

[00:03:54] Murray: No, a big part of what I'll probably be saying a lot in this episode this happens to me. I'll have a movie that I love say like Empire Strikes Back or Lord of the Rings and I'll put it on so many times in the background that 10 years go by and I've seen it so many times, but then I'll sit down be like, oh my, I feel like I've never seen this movie before because it's just

[00:04:16] Josh: It's like you're immune to what it's doing because you're so

[00:04:18] familiar

[00:04:18] with it

[00:04:19] Murray: everything just seems broken up into segments that are separate from the story.

[00:04:23] Say oh, this is Hoth. Oh, this is Dagobah. You're missing. The intricacies that tie everything together because it's broken down on modular. it's I don't think I ever caught on to, oh, it's the complete opposite of

[00:04:39] Josh: Sure.

[00:04:40] Murray: it's always just been boom ice.

[00:04:43] Like it's snow that's what it is, where on Hoth.

[00:04:45] Jon: It's funny. You mentioned that because when I was watching it recently maybe it's old age, maybe it's because as an actor, when you take a lot of classes and when you study a lot and you do it a lot you open up your defenses a little bit to become more vulnerable.

[00:04:55] So I get more teary-eyed and choked up when I watch movies and I was watching it and I was watching the carbon freeze and scene when they freeze Han, so on carbon Carbonite. And that was basically just paying attention to How Leia and Lando and Chewie and all them were just watching their friend die, And I thought about it as in like we all know he lives, I've seen the movie 10 million times, like you guys said, but what if this is if I'm a character in this? And what if I don't know what's happening? Like these characters do, they don't know what's going to happen they're watching their friend die.

[00:05:29] And I got a little teary-eyed watching it. Like I got the sniffles and I was just like, oh man this is a really powerful scene when you really don't know what the hell is going to happen. like

[00:05:39] Josh: no, that

[00:05:39] Jon: friends die and there's nothing they can do about it. Like

[00:05:43] Josh: that's as so good.

[00:05:44] Murray: Yeah.

[00:05:45] Jon: It's an amazing scene.

[00:05:46] Josh: I have a new appreciation for just how good the performances are in these original movies and this movie in particular like I said, this on last episode talking about Star Wars, Harrison Ford.

[00:05:58] Jon: Oh, my God

[00:05:59] Josh: He is so good in this movie. He gives it so much of the realism. The grounded-ness, the relate-ability that you could argue the stuff with Luke, it's a little fantastic. It's a little less relatable. In certain ways it's talking about the force, it's you're special.

[00:06:15] And you're having a sword fight with the arch real, another galaxy who you then find out is your father.

[00:06:20] Jon: As Mark Hamill puts it. He says it's very cerebral.

[00:06:23] Josh: What I was really realizing on this watch Mark Hamill's performance is concerned what he's able to do in those scenes where he's acting against a rubber puppet and an aluminum garbage can.

[00:06:34] a guy dressed all in black leather and robes with this huge mask on, the fact that all of those scenes play especially the Yoda scenes the puppet is so good. The nuance and Yoda's performance is so good, it still wouldn't work if Hamill wasn't so good.

[00:06:49] Murray: Well,

[00:06:50] Josh: The puppet.

[00:06:50] Murray: I was telling this to Jon other day, cause we probably were watching it last time. He was over such a razor thin margin of this movie being great or being shittiest movie ever. Cause sometimes I'll be watching it and I'm just Like, how did this work?

[00:07:05] There's just like giant walking, like Yetis and weird robots. Like Darth Vader himself he looks great, but he's so close to looking dumb. And like with Yoda, I'm not shitting on The Dark Crystal, but only got a cult status.

[00:07:18] It's certainly not Empire. It's like all the same things are there essentially between the two, but this somehow skated on that margin and now one of the best movies of all times where it just was so close to making it.

[00:07:34] Josh: Well as Jon always says is that it all comes down to the execution. And I think This movie secret weapon was really Irvin Kershner the director. And actually in preparation for this episode, I watched the two movies

[00:07:46] he directed prior to The Empire Strikes Back that I had never seen The Eyes of Laura Mars is kind of like a supernatural thriller written by John Carpenter actually.

[00:07:56] Jon: no shit.

[00:07:57] Josh: It's got Faye Dunaway Tommy Lee Jones in one of the best Tommy Lee Jones performances I have ever seen.

[00:08:04] Jon: Really.

[00:08:05] Josh: Yes.

[00:08:05] Murray: yeah, That's it.

[00:08:06] Jon: statement, man.

[00:08:07] Josh: yeah, no dude, it floored me how good this movie was.

[00:08:11] Because so it's written by John Carpenter, it's a supernatural thriller. I love John Carpenter. I love his work, but you can imagine how in the hands of a lesser director how a supernatural thriller written by John Carpenter could be a train wreck.

[00:08:23] Murray: Obviously I love John Carpenter, but it's basically when he directs his own movies, there's a clumsiness to them. That's why I liked John Carpenter so much, but even him directing it is a lesser director, even though he was one of my favorites.

[00:08:36] Jon: Famously too, The Empire Strikes Back went really over budget and over schedule, which means

[00:08:42] that they were putting the effort.

[00:08:43] Josh: So once I saw the eyes of Laura Mars I don't want to oversell it because I could also see some people not liking it as much as I did, but I loved it. It really floored me. And again, it was so clear to me, reasons that I liked it were really, the director was really elevating the material.

[00:08:59] The performances were so good. The character moments were so human, you could tell, he gave them the time to find those moments. He was searching with them to find those moments, to find , the exact right note to hit. And also camera work

[00:09:13] he really moves the camera and creates new compositions and he lets the actors dictate the pacing of scenes a lot more versus George Lucas, he sets the camera down and he gets a bunch of takes. And then he uses the editing to dictate the pace of the scene.

[00:09:26] Jon: Hoth and the carbon freezing room are good examples of that. one Han and Leia are bickering before he leaves

[00:09:32] Josh: shots.

[00:09:33] Jon: long shots where if you're paying attention to the edit, you'll realize that they're going back to the same shot. So it's

[00:09:39] like, you just said, Josh they might cut it up, but you can still tell that, all of Han's coverage was done one long take

[00:09:45] Murray: That's the one thing that I noticed in Empire more than the other ones is it's the one to me that feels the most actually lived in this is their reality. Nothing's fantastical or weird to them. Not that anything's like weird to say, Luke in the first one, but when you go into the Cantina, it feels like you could almost hear " and action," right before they go, it doesn't seem like they walked a bar of people living their life.

[00:10:10] It seems made for it. Whereas Empire, especially in the beginning in Hoth, when they're like planning stuff it just seems very lived in this is their daily routine, their life.

[00:10:19] Jon: It's almost like like in A New Hope George Lucas, as a filmmaker is drawing attention to the weirdness, to the audience. Look how kooky and weird this bar is. It might

[00:10:27] Murray: Yup.

[00:10:28] Jon: for the characters, but the whole point of the scene when they walk in is to show how fucking weird it is.

[00:10:33] Murray: Yeah.

[00:10:33] Jon: in Empire you already know it's weird

[00:10:36] Murray: yeah,

[00:10:37] Jon: you're going to see these weird things, but we're not going to draw too much attention to how weird it is. It just is weird.

[00:10:41] Murray: The two things that stand out to me with that is when they're in the asteroid. And he talks about whether they, the mynocks or whatever, they're like what is that noise?

[00:10:52] And we look, it was like, oh, it's a raccoon outside. It's not oh, raccoon, what is that? They just like, no.

[00:10:57] Jon: Like us. It's a mind knock

[00:10:58] Murray: Yeah. Yep. And then the other thing that w it's more of an acting thing, and I actually think of Jon a lot with it. Cause it seems just so oh he is living in that moment is when he's cooking with Yoda.

[00:11:09] And he just takes a handful of like crackers and sprinkles it on his soup. the comfort in which he did that. It just feels like a lived in world,

[00:11:18] Jon: Josh was talking about with talk with acting against a Muppet. That's a lot that mark Hamill can bring to it.

[00:11:22] Josh: Not to say, obviously one of the revelatory things about Star Wars is that, for the time, they really did not spend a lot of screen time showing off the environments and the visuals like that.

[00:11:33] It is presented matter of factly, but but to use the example you brought up Murray, the Cantina, that's also happening Luke. He's never seen this before

[00:11:43] Murray: but he would have seen the different like races or whatever he

[00:11:47] Josh: Maybe not.

[00:11:48] Jon: well, To Murray's point when I was watching this there was a couple of moments in the movie. I was noting in my head about how weird it is and how amazing the movie is by not explaining it or getting into too much detail about it. The first example I remember as a kid thinking, the first shot, you see the probe droid comes out, I was like mom,

[00:12:09] Murray: Hmm.

[00:12:09] Jon: And he said, it's like fucking disk with like arms as a kid. I thought that was weird. It's weird. Supposed to be weird. And as an audience member watching it

[00:12:17] Josh: Mm.

[00:12:17] Jon: I was like, they would explain this thing a little bit more if it were made today and I'm glad they don't, but then there was one other moment it seems like such a throwaway moment, but I think it's the perfect example of nuance and just having something that's really impactful without explaining it is after they captured the good guys in cloud city.

[00:12:34] They cut to Chewbacca in his cell and there's a screeching. Going off, it's making Chewbacca crazy then they turn it off and then it. That's all I needed to see as an audience member to know that they're just torturing him

[00:12:49] Josh: Yeah.

[00:12:50] Murray: Um,

[00:12:50] Jon: him they don't go into it.

[00:12:52] There's no scene of two stormtroopers being like, Hey, watch this. We're really going to piss him off And

[00:12:56] Murray: yeah, yeah,

[00:12:56] Jon: because that would be done today. it's such a weird cut, why would they have that in the movie? And they have it in the movie show how bad it is for all of these characters and what they're going through right

[00:13:08] now.

[00:13:08] And

[00:13:08] Murray: like purposeful too,

[00:13:10] Jon: yeah,

[00:13:11] Murray: is torture them enough that Luke feels

[00:13:14] Jon: like it's a quick moment yeah, exactly. But it's just like a really quick moment. It's just something like you said that you see the movie 10 million times and it's just oh yeah. Then they, the thing happens. But then like when I was watching it and like really laser focused on it.

[00:13:26] What a cool fucking moment. They didn't need to have that moment in there. It defines so much for the characters and the atmosphere and the setting,

[00:13:32] Josh: to ask you guys a question. where Did you rank this movie in the trilogy when you were.

[00:13:37] Murray: as a kid, it probably was least favorite because it's so dark and adult, so in the same breath, I want to say probably Return the Jedi was my favorite which is not surprising for a kids movie. Right. That's probably the newest one that I would have seen. And then my parents, their first date was A New Hope.

[00:13:58] So they were

[00:13:59] Jon: Uh,

[00:13:59] Murray: on

[00:14:00] Josh: Oh, wow.

[00:14:00] Murray: But for me, it's probably the one as a kid. I watched the least, because it a kid, it would be scary. Say, like bounty hunters or something, like as a kid, when you can't really process, even Dagobah might seem scary.

[00:14:13] And it just it's like a darker movie, but like darker, Richard like, I don't know. It's like

[00:14:18] Josh: Yeah, it's a more mature, it's a more mature movie.

[00:14:20] Jon: I saw them in order. My dad a connection where some guy was able to give him VHS copies of these movies before they were out on VHS So they were pristine, amazing quality full for the time. so I watched the in order. And Return of the Jedi was the only one that I didn't have.

[00:14:37] And when I was a little kid up until maybe about the age of 11

[00:14:41] Josh: Oh, that must be so frustrating. Not to have Jedi

[00:14:44] because, Because empire has no ending.

[00:14:46] Jon: At some point we just ended up taping Return of the Jedi off of NBC. So we had to

[00:14:50] Josh: Gotcha. Okay.

[00:14:52] Jon: and even moments in NBC that they cut out, which was stupid.

[00:14:55] But anyway, point being Jedi was my favorite. We used to rent it from the video store all the time. But that's also because I was a little kid Green's my favorite color of the green lightsaber lightsabers. All I ever wanted, the Ewoks my favorite environment to travel in is like a forest,

[00:15:11] Josh: you don't have to justify it.

[00:15:12] Jon: It's not, don't, I'm not trying to justify it, but it's just a little kid, there was all. To grab onto. And the one that I saw the least. So

[00:15:21] Josh: Um,

[00:15:22] Jon: special for me to watch that one.

[00:15:24] It changed when I got to 11 years old, I started to pay attention more and Empire overtook the rest of them quickly after that.

[00:15:33] Josh: When I was a kid, my feelings were the exact same as Murray's The Empire Strikes Back was my least favorite Return of the Jedi I was my favorite. I don't think that's an uncommon ranking for kids.

[00:15:42] As much as I love and can see that Empire is the better movie now. And as much as I can see that, Return of the Jedi maybe has some flaws in it. Maybe George Lucas was onto something when he was making these movies the way he wanted to make them.

[00:15:58] And there was some fallout from this movie for letting Irvin Kershner, who was enabled by Gary Kurtz, who was producer by letting him do his thing and be independent and shoot things in ways that George Lucas himself wouldn't necessarily have. And all the extra time he took, which costing George Lucas, real money.

[00:16:16] Remember that George Lucas financed this movie himself

[00:16:20] Jon: These are independent films.

[00:16:21] Josh: And that his whole future his whole company was on the line. You can say, oh George Lucas, he didn't want them to be spending money or whatever, blah, blah, blah.

[00:16:30] But I really think he's justified in his concern about how long the movie was taking to get made. But but that's that what this movie for me is a great example of it perfectly demonstrates the difference between being a kids movie and being a movie for kids, if that makes any sense this movie does not Try to be kid friendly though.

[00:16:53] It is a movie for kids. There's no dumbing down or pandering. It's actually the opposite. There's a lot of stuff in here that maybe as a kid, you don't necessarily understand, but you, have to reach for it. And in my opinion, the best children's entertainment sometimes there are parts of it that, go a little over their heads there were things in there that they don't necessarily understand exactly.

[00:17:16] But they're curious about, and they stick with them, maybe even scare the shit out of them and they never forget it. But those are the things that, make them curious about the world in a kind of safe environment, right? If

[00:17:29] that. makes any sense,

[00:17:30] Murray: But it's like comparing spy kids to like Goonies, one is a kid's movie Goonies is just like made for kids,

[00:17:38] right? Yeah. yeah. Yup.

[00:17:40] Josh: movie.

[00:17:41] Yeah.

[00:17:42] Jon: in Goonies that you might not understand as a kid and as

[00:17:44] Murray: Yeah,

[00:17:44] Jon: you're like, oh, I get it. It treats

[00:17:48] Josh: So let's get into the discussion of the content of the movie itself. So we'll start with all the stuff that happens on Hoth. And then we'll talk about the stuff that happens with Han and Leia on the Falcon and the asteroid field.

[00:17:59] Then we'll talk about Luke and Yoda and Dagobah, and then we'll talk about everything that happens on Cloud City until the end. Starting on the ice planet of Hoth actually something really interesting that I think we take for granted now. This movie starts out exactly the same as star wars, it's got the star wars logo.

[00:18:15] And you can imagine for a second, the audience, seeing it for the first time being confused that they had maybe threaded the wrong film in the projector. The original storyboard and the original script for The Empire Strikes Back, has the crawl not happening against a star field but over the ice field.

[00:18:33] Murray: Hm.

[00:18:33] Jon: interesting.

[00:18:34] Josh: So what is being established here, from literally the first frame is these are not. Necessarily individual movies with their own identity. They are segments of a larger whole which I

[00:18:46] Murray: Yeah,

[00:18:46] Josh: really makes sense for this movie since doesn't stand on its own.

[00:18:51] Murray: no.

[00:18:51] Josh: ending, a lot of the threads. lead to a climax but it just raises new issues that like there needs to be a follow-up.

[00:18:59] Murray: This is going to sound so cheesy, but the opening where it's so quiet and it says, in a galaxy far away, then there's that like pause of anticipation and then it hits you with the blaring thing to this day. It, makes me feel the same way. It hits the same every time. I don't know if it's just cause you're such a fan, but can't deny the excitement that happens with the fanfare, but it's also the anticipation that they built. It's almost like a perfect amount of silence on either side of it.

[00:19:30] Jon: Kind of genius and just moments that I could just grab your attention just in the first couple of seconds of a movie. It's we have your attention. Here we go.

[00:19:36] Josh: We spend the first 20 minutes just establishing this new dynamic between the three main characters.

[00:19:45] We don't even see the villains until 20 minutes in, which I thought was very interesting. The first 20 minutes is about showing the new dynamic of these characters, which is not the same as where we left them at the end of

[00:19:57] star wars. It's a completely

[00:19:59] different dynamic.

[00:20:00] Murray: is great because that goes hand in hand with what you said earlier about the very first Star Wars, just starting you in the middle of the story that you're even watching, which is something that just, when you said that Hit me I've always been a sucker for Raymond Carver, or even some Hemingway where you're just thrust into the middle of a story and you're trying to figure it out. characters know what they're talking about, so they never need to explain it.

[00:20:24] And now it's making me wonder, it's oh, I probably, because of watching Star Wars at such a young age, you

[00:20:29] Josh: That's interesting.

[00:20:30] Murray: cut beginning. And so that's where I got a taste for it. But I just love by having this new dynamic, it shows you that like life happened. Like the, again, what I was thinking is all lived in universe, happened between the closing credits and what you're seeing now.

[00:20:47] And that's why they have new dynamics. Cause it seems very genuine. It seems like people that have been fighting side by side and living side by side and the tension is getting thicker. And there's even like what it was Hans when I bumped into that bounty hunter on whatever.

[00:21:03] and you're just like, you don't know what that is. You have no idea what, but it's just no, because they've been on other ventures that you're not seeing

[00:21:10] and

[00:21:11] Jon: There's some obvious aspects to that worth. Like Luke and they call him Commander Skywalker and he gets attacked by the Wampa. And you can tell that he's seen some shit, but I think One of the best moments for Luke to convey that as when he hops in to his theater.

[00:21:25] And he's like, how are you doing Dak? Because like, I feel like I could take on the whole empire myself, and then it looks like I know what you mean. And just by him saying, I know what it means. Like this guy has seen some shit

[00:21:34] Murray: Yeah.

[00:21:35] Jon: was Dak in A New

[00:21:37] and now he's the commander and he's in charge.

[00:21:39] With hon he goes from, Hey, do you think this girl might be into me to he's clearly into her. And they clearly have some, unrequired the thing that they are arguing about and he's leaving. There's a lot of things going on and they call them general and captain, and

[00:21:53] Murray: Yeah.

[00:21:53] Jon: it's, there's a

[00:21:54] lot of. stuff going.

[00:21:55] Josh: Speaking of Han and Leia. I just had this thought for the first time rewatching it for this, I get the vibe that Han and Leia hooked up

[00:22:05] Jon: Oh, yeah, I get the

[00:22:07] same vibe

[00:22:07] too. I always

[00:22:09] thought

[00:22:09] that was inferred.

[00:22:10] Josh: that never occurred to me. as a kid I just wasn't taking those terms, but the intensity of the fight, it's like they, they fucked and that's the only thing that explains why they're so mad at each other.

[00:22:21] Murray:

[00:22:21] And

[00:22:21] maybe it meant more to

[00:22:22] one than the other

[00:22:24] Jon: thing is we can't infer who was right or wrong in this situation. Maybe there is no right and wrong as it usually is in life. But he's like, why won't you admit your feelings about me? And it's like, why would he say that? but he's also leaving at the same

[00:22:37] time.

[00:22:37] Josh: because he is pissed off that it never happened again. He's mad.

[00:22:41] Jon: she doesn't seem to

[00:22:41] care that he's leaving,

[00:22:42] Murray: in the kissing, that's very like, you know, where Billy Madison got the like Karl, so great to see you, like when C3 PO walks in. she's like actively convincing herself that there's no feelings.

[00:22:54] Thinking that if she does it enough, it will be true. He, I feel like sees through that.

[00:22:59] Jon: There's a moment where. They're trying to get away from the empire and he's literally saving her life and she's one day you're going to be wrong and I wish I'm going to be there to see it. And it's like,

[00:23:07] Josh: Yeah,

[00:23:08] Jon: is she saying that to him in his ear?

[00:23:09] They're trying to get away from certain death. So something must have really, really bad vibes between them before this movie started. something happened.

[00:23:18] Josh: Yeah, so they totally fucked Murray not to go too off on a tangent, but that scene the kissing scene want to return to, because that scene was actually what made me have that, realization that, oh, I think they have already hooked up before this, but

[00:23:34] Jon: also a little bit of trivia they did when they shot a new

[00:23:37] hope, they actors and they kept it secret for like

[00:23:40] decades. The tension's there.

[00:23:41] Josh: talking about the battle of Hoth. The structure of the movie is very interesting. George Lucas talks about it a lot it's there in every single draft of the movie, the big, fight, with all the action and the

[00:23:51] whizzbang of it all

[00:23:52] is at the beginning

[00:23:53] instead of the climax

[00:23:54] You know what else I thought was kind of interesting? they brought wedge back.

[00:23:57] Jon: Oh, yeah. Like he was such a throwaway character in the first movie and they

[00:24:01] keep bringing them back for each movie,

[00:24:03] Josh: so by Jedi, I get it. But in this one oh, to be fair, all the other pilots are dead,

[00:24:07] but,

[00:24:08] Jon: that didn't have to bring back the actor to play Wedge.

[00:24:10] Josh: right.

[00:24:11] Murray: Yeah.

[00:24:11] Jon: been another character entirely.

[00:24:12] Josh: I wonder if that happened in the casting, if they were like, Hey, why don't we bring back to that guy?

[00:24:16] He was good. he didn't die so we can bring them back.

[00:24:18] Jon: that's probably five hours worth of work for him,

[00:24:21] if that, Cumulatively all three movies, he probably worked like four days, That's why the actor, Denis Lawson, who also, as people know, he's Ewan McGregor's uncle in real life.

[00:24:32] But that's why he spoke dismissively about Star Wars. I feel like for many years, because he's

[00:24:36] Murray: Hmm.

[00:24:36] Jon: I sat in the cockpit. I didn't, I barely acted why people are so obsessed,

[00:24:41] you you know?

[00:24:41] Murray: when, People ask James Khan about BottleRocket and he's like, I worked on it on a weekend, like 25 years ago. I have no idea.

[00:24:48] Josh: Something that also out to me on this watch was General Rieekan's, a fucking bad-ass he's fucking

[00:24:52] cool.

[00:24:53] Jon: that too. And I was

[00:24:54] actually sad that he never comes back for like other ones.

[00:24:56] Murray: Hmm.

[00:24:56] Josh: when Han's yeah, there's a bounty on me. If I don't pay off job with a hunter, my dead man and Rieekan's response is like a death. Mark's not an easy thing to live with as he

[00:25:04] gets it. Yeah.

[00:25:06] As if like he

[00:25:07] Murray: Yeah.

[00:25:07] Josh: And I was

[00:25:08] like, who is this? Bad-ass

[00:25:10] Murray: but also the fact that he's on the other side of it too, so either he's still living with it or escaped it

[00:25:16] Josh: right.

[00:25:16] Jon: of that, it also shows competency. With what he's doing, he's like, I got more important shit to deal with. You're the type of guy I'm not going to convince. Have fun

[00:25:23] solo. I hope to see you

[00:25:24] I'm glad you brought that scene up because that's when I feel like you get into this real Spielberg of hyper complicated camera work that the audience doesn't realize

[00:25:33] In the same shot Han Harrison Ford walks in one frame to the other.

[00:25:37] He goes from one depth of focus to the other depth of focus. He changes where he is in the frame. just all perfect synchronicity with the filmmaker and the acting. It's really feeding the performances,

[00:25:48] Murray: It's like

[00:25:48] Bad hat Harry. The bed had Harry shot.

[00:25:51] Jon: of jaws stuff.

[00:25:52] It's a

[00:25:53] Murray: Yeah. Like

[00:25:53] it's like

[00:25:54] Jon: when the, when they focus with the guy with the keys and the camera goes to the cliff and you see the neighborhood, it's like this complicated thing I'm getting in the weeds now, but like empire does stuff like that. Maybe not as flashy, but it like it's there. He's got to pay attention to it.

[00:26:06] Josh: And having just watched the eyes of Laura Mars and the movie he directed before that radon and Tevye, which is a very interesting movie. Just as a sidebar, as a TV movie, that's about the hijacking of an air France flight. By Palestinian revolutionaries where

[00:26:21] Murray: Oh executive decision.

[00:26:22] Josh: exactly.

[00:26:23] Sorry, where they take all of the Jews hostage. And it was a very interesting movie for a lot of reasons that this probably isn't a podcast for, but He does the same thing in both of those movies. he does those invisible long shots where it keeps following characters and creating new compositions

[00:26:40] as it goes.

[00:26:40] Jon: also they experiment with lighting in the

[00:26:43] Murray: Yes.

[00:26:43] Josh: yeah, no, the lighting in

[00:26:45] Jon: of monitors on people's faces. But

[00:26:48] the ice

[00:26:49] Murray: the set. Yeah. I was going to say the set of the ice hallway is like, where first hits me. I was like, this is not like,

[00:26:54] any other star

[00:26:55] Jon: blue light on Han and layer when they're arguing and stuff like that, it's just, it's. It's great. They're experimenting with All the potential that atmosphere provides,

[00:27:03] Josh: Whereas by comparison, I think the lighting in star wars and Jedi are way less interesting Like they have moments but I think generally the lighting in the two other movies in the original trilogy are a little more flat and unless interesting something else I wanted to note on the Imperial side all of the bit parts are fantastic.

[00:27:21] British character actors most of whom have appeared as villains and doctor who multiple times like Julian Glover and Michael shared who shows up again later in last crusade as

[00:27:32] Jon: As Hitler.

[00:27:33] Murray: Ah,

[00:27:34] Josh: The other interesting thing though, is that, not to shit on them, but, I also thought that some of the bit parts on the rebel side are not quite up to snuff.

[00:27:42] Jon: the

[00:27:42] same thing.

[00:27:43] Josh:

[00:27:43] Not John Ratzenberger cliff from cheers. He's good. the guy who was like two fighters against a

[00:27:47] star

[00:27:48] destroyer,

[00:27:49] Murray: when it's just three people sitting and he was like what does he

[00:27:52] Jon: know what you're talking about. Is

[00:27:54] Murray: Yeah,

[00:27:54] Jon: see like a background, it's like a matte painting.

[00:27:56] Josh: We'll clear all flight groups for immediate launch. Is that shot against the matte painting. And that is actually Joe Johnston art concept design or whatever.

[00:28:03] Murray: could tell again, not to shit on them, cause it makes you be like why does this actor aligned? You're like, oh no, it's because it's

[00:28:09] somebody on set,

[00:28:10] Jon: but Zev the pilot that tragically dies, who also

[00:28:13] Murray: mm.

[00:28:14] Jon: Han and Luke from the

[00:28:15] Murray: Yeah.

[00:28:15] Jon: he's good. January.

[00:28:17] Josh: no. Yeah, he's great.

[00:28:17] Jon: even the lady who speaks in a flat tone, I on Kennan ready? That's fine. That's

[00:28:22] Murray: Yeah.

[00:28:22] Jon: But specifically, the random as soldiers, it's like, what the hell?

[00:28:26] There's a million people that want to be in this movie, but these are the, I guess

[00:28:29] it's just like,

[00:28:30] they just got the shot done. And that was a,

[00:28:32] Murray: the flatness of, the ion cannon thing that also shows again the world has lived in, right. It's like, if you hear like air traffic control or something like that, it's always it's not, there's no emotion to

[00:28:41] it.

[00:28:42] Jon: for what they're doing.

[00:28:43] Murray: vector nine, you're clear for like, it's not, there's no emotion to

[00:28:46] it.

[00:28:47] Jon: for what they're doing.

[00:28:48] If this ion cannon fails of people are going to die in ship So she's just very flat, matter of fact, like ion cannon ready It's not okay guys, I hope it works. It's just cause

[00:28:59] she has to like, be a professional about it,

[00:29:01] Josh: on that note, something that always really struck me when I was a kid is that others no glory in the battle of hot

[00:29:08] They are fighting to buy time to escape.

[00:29:12] Murray: yeah.

[00:29:13] Jon: They just want to get out.

[00:29:14] Murray: There's no winning. You

[00:29:15] Josh: Yes, Exactly. Exactly. There is

[00:29:16] Jon: running

[00:29:17] Murray: Yeah.

[00:29:18] Josh: winning is to buy time to run away

[00:29:21] Murray: And the fact Leia does not want to do that. You can tell almost like there has to be the vendetta from Alderaan. she almost, she's not like saying

[00:29:29] Josh: that's interesting.

[00:29:31] Murray: from running, but there's like a weird, obsession with her to not leave.

[00:29:35] Josh: she Goes down with the ship. Like she takes that responsibility very seriously. Something

[00:29:38] Jon: I,

[00:29:38] Josh: again in the last Jedi, actually she takes every loss very seriously.

[00:29:42] Jon: Murray, I think that's a fantastic point though, because when you really think about the trauma that she experienced with Alderaan and being tortured at the hands of Vader she would stay to the last man to try and be like the final fuck you to the empire, if

[00:29:55] she could. That's why she literally has to get dragged out of a Echo Base

[00:29:58] Josh: one thing though, that is interesting is that it is subtext one of the things that I said about star wars in our conversation about that. That I had with my other friends is that really weird if you think about it, the moment after they escaped the death star Luke is really upset that obiwan just died and Leia goes over to comfort Luke.

[00:30:16] I'm just like, why is Leia comforting, Luke? She just had her entire planet, her whole family,

[00:30:23] Jon: Yep.

[00:30:24] Josh: completely blown up.

[00:30:25] Jon: It is a messed up fact that she would try to comfort Luke and liquid and even

[00:30:29] consider that

[00:30:30] she's all messed up.

[00:30:31] Murray: bad writing than the character

[00:30:33] trait,

[00:30:33] Jon: agree.

[00:30:33] Josh: so you can try to justify it as a character trait, but what it really is writer is more interested or more, it's more understanding of the interiority of the male protagonists, then the female ones, which

[00:30:46] I'm not saying is a reason to not like, or enjoy the movie, but

[00:30:50] Murray: Hm.

[00:30:50] Josh: very clear.

[00:30:51] And I think it Return of the Jedi. This is even more the case George Lucas is not interested in what's going on inside Leia. He's interested in what's going on inside Luke.

[00:31:01] Murray: And the outside of layer

[00:31:02] Josh: if you go

[00:31:03] Murray: yeah,

[00:31:03] Josh: yeah,

[00:31:04] Murray: Yep

[00:31:04] Josh: Moving on from Hoth, unless something more to say.

[00:31:07] Murray: Just two things so I don't know how lasers work apparently, because he shoots the probe droid twice and he's it must have a self-destruct I didn't hit it that hard.

[00:31:15] It's you fucking shot at twice with lasers. You didn't hit it that hard. Like what the hell?

[00:31:19] Josh: That's

[00:31:20] Murray: this movie I'm fully convinced would not work today because everything anyone's ever complained about in future Star Wars, there's no setup that Luke can force. His saber, like at all,

[00:31:34] Josh: The only thing you can infer though, they have established a lot of time has passed between the first one and the

[00:31:39] Murray: very true. jumping ahead, but you meet the emperor without getting any sort of clarification, like

[00:31:43] everybody.

[00:31:44] Josh: about this movie, wouldn't fly with Star

[00:31:46] Murray: Yep. Yeah,

[00:31:47] Josh: today. See, last Jedi,

[00:31:49] Murray: Yeah.

[00:31:50] Yup.

[00:31:50] Jon: The lightsaber thing I want to talk about. That is the perfect way up difference between Luke and Vader in the movie.

[00:31:59] Because when you see Luke struggle that hard to do a simple task and he gets it and you cheer and yeah, he got out of the cave. later on, when he's going to fight Vader and you already know what Vader can do when he goes up against Han Solo, you're like, doesn't have a chance.

[00:32:14] Murray: Yeah,

[00:32:15] Jon: what Obi-Wan and Yoda tell him, we, as the audience already know.

[00:32:19] Just from seeing Vader interact with Han Solo, where he just easily deflects lasers with his fucking bare hand easily takes a gun away from him. Like

[00:32:27] Murray: yeah,

[00:32:28] Jon: You're like, oh no, is going to lose.

[00:32:31] Murray: yeah. Yup.

[00:32:32] Jon: but that being said a couple of things about half I like really establishes a lot of great character moments.

[00:32:37] We talked about it showing how they changed and stuff like that, but also how they interact. One of my favorite moments is when Luke and Han say goodbye to each other before the battle. there's something unsaid and they both want to say how much they care for each other, but they don't quite know how, and by the way, Han goes out of his mind to find out where Luke is and to rescue him in every moment that he can.

[00:32:59] Murray: Yup.

[00:33:00] Jon: like, are you okay? He goes, I'm good. and didn't have this. And he's like, be careful out there and he's like, I will, and then they leave and you too.

[00:33:08]

[00:33:08] There's a lot unsaid. but they're also, I guess you could go into maybe toxic masculinity and stuff like that, but they just don't know how to express it to each other

[00:33:15] Josh: they're emotionally stunted and they

[00:33:16] don't

[00:33:17] their feelings. Sure.

[00:33:18] Jon: Yeah. all about Leia. Hey, why don't you tell me how you feel? But with Luke, he's like, be careful. He doesn't know. He know like he's an awkward man. And that's literally the last time they see each other until they rescue him in return of the Jedi.

[00:33:30] Josh: another way to read it is that both of them are like, we may be about to die.

[00:33:35] Jon: Exactly. All of

[00:33:36] Josh: Yeah, yeah,

[00:33:38] Jon: know this might be the last time they see each other.

[00:33:40] Murray: but there is, yeah. They don't know how to express themselves. There's that, but also they do know what each other is

[00:33:47] Jon: Yes.

[00:33:48] Murray: They don't have

[00:33:49] to

[00:33:49] Josh: it.

[00:33:50] Jon: But

[00:33:50] it makes it that much more beautiful

[00:33:52] because like,

[00:33:52] they want to, but they don't have to. And they don't know how it's all three and we, as the audience project so much meaning onto that moment. I feel like if there was done by another director, that's not Kershner.

[00:34:04] They're like, Hey, you're a good kid. You're good. Go kick some ass. But in this seems like have the ending to The Graduate where they're on the

[00:34:10] Murray: Yeah.

[00:34:11] Jon: just had this moment where like we, as the audience are projecting so much

[00:34:15] Murray: yeah.

[00:34:17] Jon: and it's such a good use

[00:34:18] of it.

[00:34:18] And it makes it that much heavier before they

[00:34:20] go out to possibly die.

[00:34:22] Josh: and even the staging of it is very interesting. Like they are separated.

[00:34:25] Murray: Yeah.

[00:34:26] Josh: they're not on the same level. Han is all the way up here and Lucas all the way down there

[00:34:29] Jon: And look almost in a way, always looks up at hon. I feel

[00:34:33] Murray: Yeah,

[00:34:33] Jon: as a

[00:34:34] metaphor to.

[00:34:34] Murray: there's a cool thing. The on hot that they set up and it's a running joke, but it happens. And it also sets up how he survived. The carbon dating is cause there's like a seven, what like a 725% chance, or like to 1% chance that they would survive the night, but Han finds a way to survive the night and then

[00:34:56] getting through the Astro

[00:34:57] field.

[00:34:58] there's us, you know?

[00:34:59] Josh: to one.

[00:35:00] Never tell me the

[00:35:01] Murray: And then they never told me that. So it's like the fact that it's a slim chance. They're like, no one's ever survived carbon freezing, but there's something about Han that always is flying by the seat of his pants and somehow beating the

[00:35:13] odds

[00:35:13] Josh: flying by the seat of his pants. That's something I want to return to. Cause there were a

[00:35:16] Murray: Hmm.

[00:35:17] Josh: where hon he just, his first instinct is like some crazy shit, but it's only way forward when the hyperdrive malfunctions

[00:35:24] again,

[00:35:25] which is actually a really funny running gag throughout the movie even happens three times.

[00:35:29] So it's even structured like a

[00:35:30] joke. I mean Like the rule of threes and every time it happens, you're like, oh shit again.

[00:35:34] Jon: even when, uh, when the skin is nothing wop, wop, wop,

[00:35:36] Josh: Yeah. It's a funny sound. It's but like his first instinct when being chased by the start of story is to be like, no, okay. I'm going to turn around and fly. Right at them.

[00:35:46] Murray: that's from new hope, right? he goes charging in at the,

[00:35:50] Josh: Oh yeah.

[00:35:51] Murray: fuck, fuck, fuck. Like,

[00:35:53] Josh: Yeah, I forgot that. You're right.

[00:35:55] Jon: one little, point Hoth does the perfect example of showing Vader's results? Because when Vader shows up, he's in front of the stormtroopers,

[00:36:06] Josh: Yeah.

[00:36:07] Jon: the hallways, his weapon safely on his belt, he doesn't give a fuck nothing, anyone does, it's going to stop that man for

[00:36:17] walking down that hallway where he wants to go.

[00:36:19] And that says a lot

[00:36:21] Murray: something about his power that like literally every person and gun and everything in this base is not a threat to me. that's like

[00:36:29] Jon: He's walking like he's walking to a board meeting

[00:36:32] Josh: it's almost casual.

[00:36:33] Jon: he doesn't give a fuck about what may approach him in the hallway because he's got a covered,

[00:36:39] Murray: really quick, the most confusing line in all of star wars is hongos, I'll see you in hell. And you're like this opens up a whole can of worms here. do they have a punishment afterlife? Do they have help? What is going on there?

[00:36:55] I know it's just a phrase, but why would they have that phrase?

[00:36:58] that

[00:36:58] would be like, if

[00:36:59] Han hits his thumb is like Jesus Christ like you'd be like that doesn't fit.

[00:37:03] Josh: throughout the movies or like certain colloquialisms that, they shouldn't actually be able to have like, this is a bad example it in the Phantom menace when Hugh Quershi or captain Pinnock or whatever he goes. Oh, without the shield generator, we'll be sitting ducks. It's like what? It's like, how do you know what a duck

[00:37:16] is?

[00:37:16] Murray: you

[00:37:16] have docs. Oh, I do

[00:37:18] Jon: one thing I will say, Murray, is that I just quickly looked it up while you were talking to verify it and Norse mythology, they do have their own version of hell and it's called hell, which I'm not sure where the word came

[00:37:29] Murray: but

[00:37:30] I guess for me, just because

[00:37:31] they're going between planets and like, it doesn't seem I don't know. It was just so jarring

[00:37:37] Josh: So there's another way to look at it where, it's not jarring because if he had said, then I'll see you in insert Saifai word with a lot of

[00:37:45] X's and Z's that's unpronounceable. Yeah.

[00:37:47] Yeah. then that really would've told you.

[00:37:50] Murray: Yeah well, some things you have to do, not a mistake, but do it incorrectly

[00:37:54] Josh: it's sort of a conceit, for example, how are all these people speaking English?

[00:37:57] Jon: Yeah.

[00:37:58] It's was just about the, say

[00:37:59] Murray: Yeah.

[00:37:59] Jon: speaking English with like with American or British accents

[00:38:02] Josh: it's like an understanding what the audience, there

[00:38:04] are certain things you just shouldn't think too hard about

[00:38:06] though, but that said the ICU and health thing, it makes sense to me that there's some religion that believes in a version of hell.

[00:38:14] Jon: it would be

[00:38:15] Josh: Uh,

[00:38:16] Jon: if he said like Jesus Christ as an

[00:38:17] Murray: well that's what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

[00:38:20] Jon: because that's a specific

[00:38:21] person.

[00:38:22] Josh: it's as jarring as if he had said, oh, Jesus Christ.

[00:38:26] Murray: Yeah, you guys make a very good point. Like If you're going to have a line like that, which is important because he's literally like, I would rather die trying to save my friend, then leave him to die on his own, which is very Han

[00:38:36] solo.

[00:38:37] So he needs some sort of dismissive line.

[00:38:40] Josh: and he's also saying Hey buddy, like we're all going to have no one is getting out of this. Like, like,

[00:38:45] Murray: you're surviving.

[00:38:46] Josh: yeah.

[00:38:46] Jon: before

[00:38:47] we die,

[00:38:47] Josh: The choice to use that colloquialism what that says about the character I think is more important than the

[00:38:55] artifice of it

[00:38:56] all.

[00:38:56] You know what I mean?

[00:38:57] Jon: he puts on his Yankees captains, pass me the mountain Dew. And he

[00:38:59] Murray: Yeah. Yep. then he shotguns a red bull and fucking crushes the can on his head.

[00:39:04] Josh: I'm glad that you brought that up. Moving on from Hoth we split up the characters, which is an interesting choice, and I actually realized that Lucas, he does something similar again in attack of the clones where he splits up. Obiwan Annika and pattern-making go off and fall in love.

[00:39:19] And in this one, he splits up Luke from Han and Leia. So Han and Leia can go fall in love. they returned to each other in a similar way. Someone's in danger and needs rescuing way, an attack of the clones, it's the solo guy, no pun intended, but the guy on his own, the ostensible hero who gets in trouble and the B team or whatever, has to stop what they're supposed to be doing and go and rescue him.

[00:39:40] It's like poetry

[00:39:41] Murray: Yeah. It's in a way it's like we, Luke's only the eighth team this movie because these Luke Skywalker, in terms of time and mission and everything like that, he's total like B team in this movie. Do you know what

[00:39:55] I'm saying?

[00:39:55] Jon: funny because

[00:39:56] Murray: it's a

[00:39:56] very heavy Han solo layer

[00:40:00] movie.

[00:40:00] Jon: I never quite thought about it, but it's weird because and Leia are doing the heavy lifting when it comes to the action thrill ride. That is a

[00:40:08] Murray: Um,

[00:40:08] Jon: movie, Luke doing the heavy lifting with Yoda to establish what star wars is

[00:40:15] Murray: yeah.

[00:40:15] Jon: as like the mythos and the culture of what the forces, and combined, I shouldn't say what star wars is, but like what the deeper

[00:40:22] kind

[00:40:22] of, I feel like, but you need

[00:40:24] Josh: I mean, certainly what it becomes.

[00:40:26] Jon: But you do need like the romp that is Han and Leia to be star wars too. Otherwise it

[00:40:30] just becomes like,

[00:40:31] Murray: it out. Yeah.

[00:40:32] Jon: Trek and academic. If you don't

[00:40:33] Josh: Yeah.

[00:40:34] Murray: Yeah.

[00:40:34] Josh: But so moving on, let's start with the stuff that happens on the Falcon with Han and Leia and all this stuff in the AstroTurf field.

[00:40:39] The first question that want to ask who put the door on the Falcon and why on the cockpit? no,

[00:40:44] but yeah, between star wars and the empire strikes back in the original star wars, there was no door on the cockpit you saw through to the corridor and back and now, and this one, all of a sudden there's a door.

[00:40:53] I never really thought to

[00:40:54] ask why.

[00:40:55] Jon: was there a doorway and the new hope.

[00:40:57] Josh: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I mean, there was a door

[00:40:59] Jon: always open.

[00:41:00] Josh: so I think, I know the reason from a dramatic standpoint, it's so you can have scenes where Han and Leia are alone.

[00:41:06] Jon: Correct.

[00:41:06] They could tell three people to shut up And thick and close the door.

[00:41:10] Josh: so

[00:41:10] Jon: I want to spend 45

[00:41:12] minutes talking about the door.

[00:41:13] Murray: let's do it. Let's do it. Yeah.

[00:41:15] Jon: Let's get down to brass tacks, the door

[00:41:17] Josh: I wouldn't be surprised if it was Irvin Kershner who was like, we need a door here so I can play these scenes that with Han and Leia

[00:41:22] Jon: Probably. That's probably how it went.

[00:41:25] Murray: Han solo covering C3, POS mouth, one of the best jokes in the whole movie. Very like subtle and underrated.

[00:41:31] Josh: the humor in this movie is so good

[00:41:34] Murray: Yeah.

[00:41:35] Josh: it all is subtle and all works. Even the unsettled stuff is still really funny.

[00:41:39] Jon: Harrison Ford always points but that's the best use of a point is when three-peat was talking to him and he puts the finger up in three points of

[00:41:45] starts stops talking, but then three POS says is his. And he's like, I knew that and he goes to chewy and he's I gotta tell you three POS idea, but taking all the credit for it.

[00:41:55] And three PO notices, which

[00:41:57] is even funnier,

[00:41:58] Josh: What the fuck

[00:41:59] Jon: I know he's come on.

[00:42:00] Josh: I want to return to

[00:42:02] the the kissing scene because like I said before, this was what made me have the thought maybe they had hooked up before the movie because watching it now as an adult.

[00:42:13] It reads a little uncomfortably to me does say stop and he

[00:42:17] doesn't And there's literally nowhere for her to go.

[00:42:20] Jon: Get past.

[00:42:22] Josh: Yeah. But

[00:42:22] Murray: and

[00:42:22] Josh: they are stuck on the ship together.

[00:42:24] Right.

[00:42:24] Jon: It's true.

[00:42:25] Murray: and she has

[00:42:26] Anxiety really bad when she falls on his lap and he's like holding onto her which seems like for safety sake. But clearly she's not that because he doesn't look like he's trying to make a move on her. He's just she fell onto his lap and he's like

[00:42:41] her because the ship's rocking, but she was like, go, like,

[00:42:43] Josh: but then he makes a joke about it.

[00:42:45] So like,

[00:42:46] she's clearly freaked out and he's not taking her seriously. he

[00:42:50] Murray: yeah,

[00:42:51] Josh: which I get, is there

[00:42:52] Murray: dynamic. But.

[00:42:53] Josh: this Is one of those things that reinforces this idea that has existed in mass entertainment and in culture for a long, long time, that the way to get a girl like you, it's just a matter of persistence

[00:43:06] sure. She's saying no, but that's just because you haven't tried hard

[00:43:09] enough and she'll come around eventually

[00:43:11] Jon: I I agree.

[00:43:12] Murray: is the nice way they put it,

[00:43:14] Josh: forced court shift.

[00:43:15] Jon: Of course, Jesus.

[00:43:16] Murray: chip,

[00:43:17] Josh: Uh

[00:43:17] Murray: I think. that's how they explained it in gone with the wind and

[00:43:21] Jon: Hmm.

[00:43:22] Murray: even what is it? Pale rider. I think where he like, basically. Grapes the girl, like right in the beginning, but he's like the good guy. And then, we love the movie, but Blade Runner has that really weird

[00:43:33] Josh: Yeah,

[00:43:34] Murray: just like a

[00:43:34] Jon: Bleeder is with a real awkward,

[00:43:36] problematic scene.

[00:43:38] Murray: where like somehow

[00:43:39] Josh: That's a very polite way

[00:43:41] Jon: Yeah.

[00:43:41] Murray: that was the way

[00:43:42] Jon: Every seen basically.

[00:43:44] Murray: Breece DJ pancake, he's a short story writer and his mom, there's a story of his mom being like, this is true, you clearly attack that girl. And he was like, he said something, he like downplayed it as forced courtship or something like that.

[00:43:56] And you're just like, oh, that's horrible.

[00:43:57] Josh: the thing that I think saves it from going even further is the fact that it is a movie for kids.

[00:44:02] Murray: Yeah.

[00:44:03] Josh: And not that this makes it any better but it made me have the thought, oh, they must have hooked up before this and Han thought was into it, then.

[00:44:13] And that's why he's sort of like, Hey, I know what you're thinking. I know you're saying Nope, but I really know that you like me because I'm a scoundrel, like you like this. which is fucked up. But the reason why I think he thinks he can say this is because something did happen between them

[00:44:28] already.

[00:44:28] Murray: They have a history that he's like relying on

[00:44:31] Josh: Now that

[00:44:31] Murray: in a way.

[00:44:32] Josh: see it. It's still problematic as fuck. not like I'm not

[00:44:35] Murray: as soon as a

[00:44:37] Josh: yes. as

[00:44:37] Jon: Yeah, she doesn't stick around.

[00:44:40] Josh: no. So which is also something that I know is an experience. A lot of women have where they do let them have the kiss because it's just easier

[00:44:48] Murray: yeah,

[00:44:48] Josh: than risk making the guy, man,

[00:44:50] Murray: yeah.

[00:44:51] Josh: a real thing.

[00:44:51] and so the fact that she then immediately runs away as soon as she has the opportunity also reads is like not great.

[00:44:57] Jon: I think you're right. in those days there really was the she's playing hard to get

[00:45:03] Murray: Yeah.

[00:45:03] Jon: and culture, which I hope that I think we're getting rid of right now, but that's something that they're really playing into, but also on top of that, Solo was an asshole.

[00:45:12] So he's in with a heart or the heart of gold, so he's being an asshole and he's doing the she's playing hard to get, which does not look good, it really comes down to it. But that being said too, like of joking. Maybe they hooked up in the past. There's something very

[00:45:28] wholesome

[00:45:28] Josh: not

[00:45:29] Jon: star wars. Well, I'm Trying to say, is that I think as adults, we can infer that and that works really well for the characters. And then it's like, it seems pretty clear that they did. However, something very chaste about star wars too. So I wouldn't be surprised if like it's on the record that they never did anything up until this movie to give them a bigger moment.

[00:45:49] this is not a way to explain anything. I'm just kind of dissecting what we're looking at

[00:45:54] Josh: yeah.

[00:45:54] Jon: definitely a

[00:45:56] Murray: There's no it's problematic, but I think what also the movie kinda is resting on, besides it being like, like at that time, it was almost like blindly going past people. Like, No, one's seeing it through the eyes that we're seeing it now in 2020, but they're also, if they did hook up, with that implication that almost like they have their own dynamic that you're

[00:46:17] witnessing, and it doesn't make it any better, but it

[00:46:19] just

[00:46:20] Josh: is a throwback to movies from the forties. And as happens a lot in star wars they are intentionally referencing something from the past without considering They're also importing cultural standards of the time.

[00:46:34] Jon: And continuing the standard as well. That being said, I think what the movie's trying to do give it the benefit of the doubt is to try to show that lay, I can't concentrate on anything else, but the mission and Hahn is maybe someone who's trying to grab onto her humanity.

[00:46:53] that doesn't excuse it.

[00:46:55] Murray: at the worst times ever, ,

[00:46:57] Jon: it comes off as like very clumsy because of how wholesome star wars is.

[00:47:02] but I feel like if these movies were made today, they would definitely need to get rewritten with those scenes.

[00:47:07] And they would definitely need to talk to a fucking woman

[00:47:09] about those scenes

[00:47:11] and get their perspective

[00:47:12] Murray: men,

[00:47:13] Josh: a lot. Yes,

[00:47:14] Jon: you know,

[00:47:15] Murray: go well.

[00:47:15] Josh: No. One more thing that I want to say about stuff on the Falcon the scene with the mine ox and the space slug. I love it because shouldn't work. It's just

[00:47:25] black curtains

[00:47:26] and a fog machine

[00:47:27] and a couple of plastic wings on like rods so doctor who it's so like

[00:47:33] 1970s,

[00:47:34] Murray: like rocking themselves. Like

[00:47:35] Jon: yep.

[00:47:36] Josh: it is. So

[00:47:37] Jon: And

[00:47:38] Josh: like no money,

[00:47:39] Murray: that

[00:47:40] Josh: had, it works.

[00:47:41] Murray: of being awesome

[00:47:42] or like complete shit, like

[00:47:44] Josh: Yeah, but it works.

[00:47:45] Murray: Yeah.

[00:47:46] Jon: People talk about and star wars oh, there's no sound in space and

[00:47:49] dude, they're in a fucking asteroid with no atmosphere in the stomach of a worm. And they just go out with little like masks on their face as if they wouldn't pop or they have oxygen.

[00:48:00] and I love how star wars. Whatever it star wars who gives a shit and it works in some weird way. Like you said, Josh, it's like doctor who, they're in space. They can't just walk out with it instantly dying.

[00:48:12] But it worked in some weird way. It's the atmosphere of the warm stomach and the

[00:48:16] gravity of the asteroid shirt, whatever.

[00:48:17] I don't give a shit. I'm not thinking too hard about it, they're not asking you to think hard about it.

[00:48:22] about the set because they do that beautifully into carbon chamber room,

[00:48:27]

[00:48:27] There's a lot more stuff going on, but if you notice in that, we'll talk about it, but there's literally no walls on that set.

[00:48:32] Murray: two minor things that I loved about the asteroid scene they're both involved. Vader. when he's just like walking away and everybody's going about their business and even that little remote control, like droid is just going by like, no, one's paying attention to it.

[00:48:47] you get the idea that it's, that's just what it does all day long. It has its thing. And it's just like running around like, doesn't sidestep it. He doesn't look down at it. So it feels like it would be like if you had this at your office at work, you have conditioner that

[00:49:00] Jon: Hm,

[00:49:01] Murray: made like a clunking noise every Like you wouldn't just be like, what is that? You would just like, ah, who cares? Whatever.

[00:49:07] then the other one was when that one guy that's doing the hologram gets like destroyed and Vader could not give a fuck.

[00:49:15] Jon: And it's such a throwaway joke.

[00:49:17] Murray: Yup. He just dies off in the corner Vader's just going about his I think

[00:49:24] a good character trait, but also I keep just saying the world actually feels lived in

[00:49:28] and real, even though it's a space opera.

[00:49:31] Jon: Larry? There was like,

[00:49:32] Murray: Yeah.

[00:49:32] Jon: don't even acknowledge it.

[00:49:33] Murray: Yup.

[00:49:34] Jon: continues a sentence. he was

[00:49:35] Murray: not be able to see it

[00:49:36] only,

[00:49:37] Jon: true,

[00:49:37] Murray: the only one that could see it

[00:49:38] Jon: and he doesn't care.

[00:49:39] Murray: just doesn't care. Because he kills them whenever he even slightly annoyed with them. I don't care. Like you're dead. Like

[00:49:46] your,

[00:49:46] Jon: right there.

[00:49:47] you just reminded me of it, but this is also the same section in the movie where Vader talks to the emperor for the first time. This is the first time we

[00:49:53] see him. the version of empire strikes back that I watched was actually the original version

[00:49:57] Murray: lucky I watched Disney plus bullshit.

[00:49:59] Jon: which by the way as special editions

[00:50:02] Murray: It's the best one out there.

[00:50:03] Jon: plus version of the empire strikes back is the one that I will watch casually whenever, because they didn't

[00:50:08] do that many changes.

[00:50:09] And it's

[00:50:09] Josh: Yeah.

[00:50:10] Jon: great. There's nothing really.

[00:50:12] Murray: Yeah.

[00:50:13] Jon: know, that's uh,

[00:50:14] Murray: the look of the original

[00:50:15] emperor

[00:50:16] Josh: it's so creepy because

[00:50:17] they use like a chimpanzee's eyes And they matter to them on the face of a woman. Clive revel is an actor who provided the voice

[00:50:24] it's the first time we see the emperor this movie is actually the first time we see a lot of star wars hallmarks uh, above a fact, the emperor Lando Yoda, the Imperial March

[00:50:35] Murray: but that's what I was saying. Like With last

[00:50:37] Jedi,

[00:50:37] how much fallout in the last Jedi? Cause who Snoke? We don't even know who Snoke is. It's you didn't know who the emperor was, but that didn't bother you before. So that's what I'm saying. This

[00:50:45] movie could not work today.

[00:50:46] Jon: it would work for critics, but it would not work for fanboys, I think.

[00:50:50] Josh: because this movie subverts expectations , that phrase that is tried it out as if it's like a mistake, but literally, like this was not the movie that people were expecting it to be.

[00:50:59] Jon: and it actually got split reviews when it

[00:51:00] came out a

[00:51:01] Murray: say, I

[00:51:01] Josh: Yeah.

[00:51:02] Murray: maybe I'm saying it wouldn't work today, but maybe it didn't really

[00:51:05] work back then in, in the same

[00:51:07] way that last Jedi doesn't work today. But with some people it does,

[00:51:11] maybe it was the same thing.

[00:51:12] Jon: Go back and read the original reviews. A lot of people, like a lot of critics were like, this is not what I wanted it to be.

[00:51:18] Murray: Hmm.

[00:51:19] Jon: It's bla bla bla bla bla.

[00:51:21] So I watched the original version and then right before we started this, I watched this special edition version of that same scene. There's something about the original version I like more the dialogue is very similar, but in the original version, the emperor is like Luke Skywalker has to be stopped, yada, yada, yada, and

[00:51:38] Josh: Yeah. Yup.

[00:51:39] Jon: get straight to business.

[00:51:40] And he's he's just a boy. I think we can turn him that. Can you do it? Yes. Okay. blah, blah, blah. When you watch the special edition he's like the son of Anakin Skywalker, and then Vader's like, how can that be as if he's just learning that he has a son. The emperor goes, search your feelings, whatever, it's true. And then they continue a business. And I think the original one preserves the

[00:52:01] special at the end of the movie, because it was made first. So if he had him saying, how can that be? You'll be asking yourself, why is he asking that question?

[00:52:10] Also besides preserving the surprise, I think it also preserves the character of Darth Vader. Because like Vader really changes Luke decides to kill himself at the end into the pit

[00:52:27] Murray: that was totally missed on me when I was a kid.

[00:52:29] thought he planned it. I thought cause the way

[00:52:31] he perfectly,

[00:52:32] yeah.

[00:52:32] Jon: But, I think. Is almost the same Vader, for the whole movie up until that point. And that's when he like, has the telepathic conversation with him, come with me and he deserts him. And then even when he walks away, when they go into hyperspace, he looks almost defeated.

[00:52:48] If they brought in the surprise of him saying, how can that be? He's already starting to change at that moment. And I think it works better with him changing later, like the telegraphing that they're telegraphing the surprise and they're telegraphing his arc.

[00:53:03] And I

[00:53:04] feel like they should do neither.

[00:53:05] Josh: the other way you can read it later on in the movie, he basically says to Luke, Hey, you should join me together. We can overthrow the emperor. you can read it as that's what he's

[00:53:15] Murray: his end game. Yeah, like

[00:53:17] Josh: And he's pretending to the emperor that, oh, he had a son. This is the first I'm hearing of it.

[00:53:21] Jon: You could give the benefit of the doubt that he's playing the emperor too. But if you just take out that line, like they had in the original version, there's no need to even have that question because it's already established that he doesn't give a

[00:53:34] anything except for himself

[00:53:35] Josh: the problem is, and the reason it's there is because

[00:53:38] Jon: because I made the pre-calls

[00:53:39] literally why it's there.

[00:53:41] Josh: know. I know. So he should have a bigger reaction.

[00:53:44] Jon: Even with the prequels existing. I think it still works because it shows how far gone he is, because he says

[00:53:50] Josh: I agree.

[00:53:50] Jon: Luke, that Anakin is dead. So I think as he's now Darth Vader, he's no longer Anakin. So it's like, Hey, we need to kill your son. Luke Skywalker and dark hair is like, dope.

[00:54:00] Let's do it

[00:54:01] Murray: join us or die or

[00:54:02] Jon: well, I mean, like

[00:54:02] to the emperor, his face is would be believable if he would be like that, because to go to the dark side and to be that bad and evil, it's man, this guy really is more machine than man. Like OB one said he really is fucked up.

[00:54:14] And then as we all know, there's still something deeper there,

[00:54:16] Josh: there a couple of things I want to mention that I liked about the stuff on the Falcon?

[00:54:20] No time to discuss this in committee. I'm not a committee.

[00:54:22] That's such a great line.

[00:54:23] I love that. that's so good. Han's maneuver when the hyperdrive doesn't work again, his first thought is. Okay. We'll fly right into them then. it's such a ballsy completely born out of total desperation.

[00:54:36] But it just shows like, when he's up against the wall, he finds a way out. his first instinct is to do the craziest thing to take the fight right back to them.

[00:54:44] Murray: he's

[00:54:45] not shooting at them.

[00:54:46] Josh: no, but he has an idea. He has

[00:54:47] an

[00:54:47] idea.

[00:54:48] Murray: since I cannot run them, I have to somehow will hide. And the only way I could hide

[00:54:52] is literally if they

[00:54:53] can't see me, you know, like if they

[00:54:55] Jon: a large,

[00:54:56] Murray: radar.

[00:54:57] Jon: a large element of surprise because they don't

[00:54:59] expect it and they don't know what to do

[00:55:01] when he does that.

[00:55:02] Josh: Exactly. He's also cycling them out Because he knows that they're not expecting him to do that.

[00:55:06] They're like, what the fuck is he doing? something similar actually. It actually reminds me of how PO in the last Jedi, he pulls off a crazy maneuver, in the very beginning where just him and one lone X Wang, and he approaches that superstar story the difference though, is that maneuver wasn't one born out of desperation, He gets the order to retreat or whatever from lad. And then he decides not to he keeps going because he knows he's so good. He can do it. Which is ballsy. the last is drawing distinction between doing something insane because you have no other choice versus

[00:55:42] Murray: bravado

[00:55:43] or like, uh, Yeah,

[00:55:45] Yup.

[00:55:45] Jon: and

[00:55:46] Josh: Yeah,

[00:55:47] Murray: Yeah.

[00:55:47] Josh: which I really appreciate about the last Jedi, using a very familiar archetype from the other movies, the hot shot pilot because it's something we've already seen, it's actually giving that character a very interesting arc where Let's actually look at that for a second. There's a downside of this

[00:56:04] Murray: That's why I think, besides having to command everybody and keep them safe, that's why Leia has no patience for pub, because it's we've all seen this sort of hot shot stuff, but she's way more than seen it. She's lived it she's fucked. It she's had a kid with

[00:56:20] it and she, yeah. Yup. because also at that point they were like separated for so long.

[00:56:27] They had one. Encounter and then like he died. So it was just like, it's, there's no like real redeeming quality to her at that point when she's seeing like PO do all this stuff.

[00:56:36] Jon: I think a difference with Han and Poe is that you were talking about Josh, how he does it , cause he has no other choice in poet, does it because of that. But also one hon does have a choice he's way more sly way more I know how to finish this battle and end or without killing more people.

[00:56:52] And he

[00:56:52] does like the message, I got an idea he tries to be smart about it. Whereas Poe would just grab his gun and be like, let's get as many people killed as we can so we can win. And Han would be like, fuck, no

[00:57:02] Josh: moving onto diggaba and Yoda and the training scene, when I was a kid these parts of the movie where the slow parts that kind of bored me.

[00:57:10] Jon: I like them.

[00:57:11] Murray: I'm like a huge, a Muppet fan. So even as a kid, I was loving it,

[00:57:13] Josh: Yoda's introduction is great.

[00:57:15] Murray: yeah. And I, it took me again, like when I was saying how I've seen it a million times, then I really see it, years later is almost like you grow up and you're like, oh, Yoda is so crazy.

[00:57:25] no, he's just testing Luke's patients. Cause he's been watching Luke for Luke's whole life force watching him or something like that he's

[00:57:33] Josh: yeah.

[00:57:34] Murray: for 800 years. You've been dreaming of adventure and like, not doing

[00:57:38] Jon: like, I it's like

[00:57:38] for all I've watched or you've always looked to the stars and

[00:57:41] never worked right. Where you were, what you

[00:57:42] were doing and all

[00:57:43] Murray: so it is. To me the twist of when he's like driving loop bonkers and many just gets calm and goes, I can not train this boy or

[00:57:50] something like that You're like, oh fuck.

[00:57:52] Josh: and in that moment when he turns around and you see the look on your face it's so he's a completely different character and it's

[00:57:58] a fucking rubber puppet.

[00:58:00] It is. It is, it is insane. How well this

[00:58:03] works

[00:58:04] Absolutely insane.

[00:58:05] Jon: it always creeped me out as a kid when he's like, I'm not afraid and he's like, you will be, you will be,

[00:58:11] as a kid. I'm like, a kid, I was always like,

[00:58:13] what do you

[00:58:14] read that? I like those moments as a kid though, because as a

[00:58:17] kid

[00:58:18] Josh: what I'm talking about is like, yeah. The

[00:58:20] actual training,

[00:58:20] Jon: So I'm seeing the actual training as a kid, I actually liked because there were kind of get into the nuts and bolts about what he can do.

[00:58:26] And for some reason, as a kid, the image of him trying and failing get the X wing of the swamp, I didn't realize this until now, but I think subconsciously that movie was showing me that it's okay to fail Because

[00:58:41] usually in movies,

[00:58:42] Murray: they all fail, but

[00:58:43] Jon: well, think about it.

[00:58:44] Like it think about it. Like in every movie that we watched, someone's I got an idea and I'd do like a fucking montage and they do it and it works. and this is the first movie I've seen where the good guy, Luke Skywalker, the guy I want to be is trying something. he's just failing. He can't do it, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he can't do it in the future.

[00:59:05] just that he needs to try harder. He needs to focus more. And as a kid, I was absorbing this. So when

[00:59:10] Murray: okay.

[00:59:10] Jon: wing goes up and then it goes back down into the water, like broke my heart. then Yoda was telling me that no, you can get past it. these are things that as a little boy, I was like absorbing,

[00:59:21] Murray: funny thing about that whole scene is that Luke only trains for about six hours. Right. Because he trains just basically the length of time that they were in the space slug. Give or take. So you have the day before, Luke's I'll do whatever you want. Just, you could train me and literally like smash cut to the first thing he tries to this is impossible. Like imagine being Yoda, you'd be like, This is exactly what I said. What happened 20 minutes ago? You said you wouldn't give up and now you just like.

[00:59:49] Jon: Luke should have been there for a lot longer than he was.

[00:59:53] Murray: Yeah.

[00:59:53] Jon: he was, and at the same time, it's like maybe they were traveling in the Falcon for a lot longer than we thought,

[01:00:00] Josh: Yeah, well, that's what they say.

[01:00:01] Murray: the only thing is because they go right from the asteroid to Lando.

[01:00:05] Josh: Without hyperspace.

[01:00:06] Jon: Yeah.

[01:00:07] Murray: shit.

[01:00:08] Josh: Not to get too nerdy, but

[01:00:09] Murray: that's very, very true.

[01:00:11] Josh: But I believe the line on that is they actually are traveling for six weeks?

[01:00:15] Murray: Oh, wow.

[01:00:16] Josh: yeah,

[01:00:17] Jon: I feel like it's the economy of filmmaking a little bit, it's almost like they're telling the story you don't need to see three months of Luke training. You don't need

[01:00:24] to see three months of them,

[01:00:25] Murray: but

[01:00:25] Jon: playing holo-chess in the Falcon, getting bored.

[01:00:28] Murray: no,

[01:00:28] Jon: know,

[01:00:28] Murray: it's funny. Cause like

[01:00:29] literally I had no idea. It just seemed

[01:00:32] but but then it's again, they're like,

[01:00:33] Jon: five months later, or

[01:00:34] Murray: yeah,

[01:00:35] Jon: a

[01:00:35] Josh: Right.

[01:00:36] Jon: time has

[01:00:36] passed,

[01:00:37] Josh: you go with it. it's called refrigerator logic. It's something that you don't think about until, get home and you're at the fridge to get a glass of milk and middle of the night and you're like, huh, how come

[01:00:46] he was only on the planet for like

[01:00:48] Murray: Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

[01:00:49] Jon: Yeah.

[01:00:50] Josh: yeah, I think it works

[01:00:51] Jon: And also it seems like they were in cloud city. I got the vibe that they were there for me, like a couple of days or something like that

[01:00:56] Murray: The older I am now, like I've watched the training scene, just going back to what Yoda is saying and watching it on like subtitles and stuff, because I was like, that's where everything is coming down to.

[01:01:09] That's the stuff that like, you always just say like, oh, it's the force or whatever, but you forget the details of

[01:01:14] what he's saying.

[01:01:15] Josh: No, absolutely. Now I really vibe with it but when I was a kid, I think I found it a little boring because it was going over my

[01:01:22] head. I didn't really, I didn't really get it.

[01:01:24] Murray: like when he said, and it's basically I forget exactly how it's phrased, because it's like very poetic, but it's like the dark, I will like rush to your side in a fight

[01:01:33] Jon: it's easier. He said more

[01:01:35] Josh: and quick to join you in a fight.

[01:01:37] Murray: When he's talking about the force, which was the best explanation before it was like bacteria in your blood or whatever. But like he's saying basically a that I really do try to adhere to myself as like, everyone's the same, crude material, And then he starts talking

[01:01:51] Jon: Limited speed.

[01:01:52] Murray: where the we're like rocks and the trees and everything like that, which is very like Buddhist and good. But now imagine if you that same training, but then you went over to the dark side, you would be totally fine with killing whole planets of people and choking people left and right.

[01:02:12] Because to you with that understanding yet they're just, they're like, they're just rocks. not anything.

[01:02:18] Jon: we're all just dirt. So it

[01:02:19] doesn't really matter.

[01:02:20] Murray: so it's almost like dark side, especially someone as powerful as Vader he has the understanding of a Jedi.

[01:02:27] He just chooses the more powerful

[01:02:30] flashy stuff. Cause that's what he craves. But the teachings are still going to be the same of just like, what I'm killing people. Quote unquote they're dirt. They're crude

[01:02:39] Jon: Yeah, I think that's a fantastic point because Jedi philosophy would be, since we're all the same, we're encouraging empathy. And then this would be like, since we're all the same, we're encouraging nihilism and you

[01:02:50] might as well be the king of the

[01:02:51] top, the king of the hill, because fuck it, nothing matters.

[01:02:55] So you must

[01:02:55] get all the power that you can.

[01:02:56] Josh: in hell than serve.

[01:02:58] Jon: Exactly.

[01:02:59] Murray: Yep. I'll be the top man on the mountain, but the mountain is just a mountain of dirt, like a Johnny Cash and empire

[01:03:04] Jon: Yeah.

[01:03:05] Murray: Like it just, that doesn't well, nine inch nails, but you guys know what I'm saying?

[01:03:10] Josh: can we talk about the cave?

[01:03:11] Jon: Yes.

[01:03:12] Josh: So when I was a kid and you're a says your weapons, you will not need them. And he takes it anyway. Like even I, as a kid was like, Luke,

[01:03:19] Jon: Yep,

[01:03:20] Murray: It's like

[01:03:20] Josh: not to

[01:03:21] Murray: the

[01:03:21] perf it, it's

[01:03:23] Jon: exactly.

[01:03:23] Murray: example of Luke and not being ready for training.

[01:03:26] Right.

[01:03:27] Jon: Yeah,

[01:03:27] Murray: understanding it.

[01:03:28] Yeah,

[01:03:28] Josh: just said,

[01:03:29] Murray: yeah, yeah. Yup. Yeah.

[01:03:31] Jon: The one thing he told you not to do

[01:03:32] Josh: maybe this was always obvious to everybody but when he asks him what's in there and he says only what you take with you, he takes the gun with him.

[01:03:40] Jon: the

[01:03:41] lightsaber with them.

[01:03:42] Josh: He

[01:03:42] Murray: Yeah.

[01:03:42] Josh: the fight with him.

[01:03:44] Murray: Yeah.

[01:03:45] Jon: mirrored himself, literally, and metaphorically at

[01:03:48] that

[01:03:48] point.

[01:03:48] Josh: Which, which, when I was a kid, I don't know, for whatever reason his face and the mask

[01:03:52] Murray: looked like more camel.

[01:03:53] Josh: right

[01:03:54] Jon: And it

[01:03:54] is him.

[01:03:55] Murray: no, it is

[01:03:56] Jon: actually, him in the

[01:03:57] floor looking up through the mask.

[01:03:59] Josh: I know.

[01:03:59] Jon: Yeah.

[01:04:00] Josh: when I was a kid, it didn't register to me that was supposed to be his

[01:04:03] Murray: It's

[01:04:03] almost like too high of a concept for our kid

[01:04:06] brains to comprehend.

[01:04:08] So we just saw something else. Yeah,

[01:04:10] Jon: It's like at the lack of context the person's whole getup, like who is this person? But I specifically remember seeing it for the first time and asking my dad who is that, and my dad

[01:04:17] says, that's looks Skywalker. And I'm like, oh, okay.

[01:04:20] And I

[01:04:20] just moved on.

[01:04:21] Josh: and what's so weird. Is that okay? So when I was a little older, I was like, okay, so that's supposed to be Luke, but it's a bad fake head. And then when I got older I saw the behind the

[01:04:30] Murray: Yeah,

[01:04:30] Josh: it's actually mark Hamill's head in like a fixed thing. was like, what the fuck?

[01:04:34] Murray: yeah,

[01:04:35] yeah, Yeah.

[01:04:36] Jon: Yeah.

[01:04:37] Josh: me.

[01:04:38] Murray: more telling than Luke, being told not going to need your weapons. Like it shows how he's fully not trusting Yoda, but also he's not understanding the grand concepts, but the look of disappointment on Yoda, just sitting there slumped on the log when he comes back

[01:04:53] out of the cave.

[01:04:55] Josh: he's like drawing in the

[01:04:56] Murray: Yeah. Well,

[01:04:57] This is really, this is something that it's could be a tangent. I don't want to get all religious, but

[01:05:01] Josh: please.

[01:05:03] Murray: knows the line he used without sin throw the first stone.

[01:05:06] Josh: Yeah.

[01:05:07] Murray: when that happens, these people are bringing someone that's caught in the act of adultery, which back then could get a woman killed.

[01:05:13] apparently not the man, because whatever, but what, when they go to. Jesus. It says, he's doing something in the dirt that is not explained. He's like drawing in the dirt, making either patterns or people started to make, I think, cause of B DeMille, when he made king Kings, he had like magically writing, like every sin of everybody that's there.

[01:05:33] So oh, he knows my son, but like the parallel of you saying that of approach like the teacher, who's just either sitting like disappointed or not concerned with what just happened or something, but that they're just drawing in the dirt absent mindedly don't know if that was any sort of inspiration, but that is like a

[01:05:52] big, uh,

[01:05:53] Jon: It might be

[01:05:54] Josh: No,

[01:05:55] Jon: knows

[01:05:55] Josh: It very well could be. One thing about the sequence it's subtle but it's the first example of, guess you could say like surrealism and star wars with

[01:06:04] slow motion effect.

[01:06:05] and it's handled very well because it's a subtle cue that what you are seeing is not literally happening.

[01:06:10] Jon: he's now in a.

[01:06:12] Josh: yeah. And the choice to make it so subtle like that It's so effective.

[01:06:17] and it's the introduction of non-literal kind of surrealism as part of the cinematic vocabulary

[01:06:24] Murray: is that,

[01:06:25] does that only happen one more time

[01:06:28] Josh: It happens a couple more times. It happens in revenge of the Sith when mannequin is dreaming about,

[01:06:33] Padma dying.

[01:06:34] Jon: Hm.

[01:06:35] Murray: forgot that those existed when I asked that yeah, I was just thinking of the cave

[01:06:39] Jon: the cave is way more metaphorical, but not even trying to be cerebral. and the last Jedi, when Ray and Kyla rung him back to the back. That's in slow motion,

[01:06:48] but that's just, because it's cool. It's literal it's and it's

[01:06:51] really fucking cool.

[01:06:52] Murray: that's one thing about great about the SQL's is they brought like coolness back to star wars and literally if there's anything that could be added from some sort of special effect that they didn't have an empire, if they could just add like actual realistic glow from the lightsabers, it'd be like

[01:07:07] Jon: Yeah.

[01:07:08] Murray: like perfect movie.

[01:07:09] Josh: Especially because the first encounter with Vader and Luke in the carbon freezing chamber,

[01:07:14] Jon: The

[01:07:14] lighting is so cool in that.

[01:07:16] Murray: yeah. Yup.

[01:07:17] Josh: is so cool. And when Vader first ignites his lightsaber in the dark, interactive lighting that quote unquote should be there

[01:07:23] Murray: yeah,

[01:07:23] Josh: made it even

[01:07:25] Murray: yeah,

[01:07:25] Josh: awesome.

[01:07:26] Murray: Yep.

[01:07:26] Josh: it doesn't work.

[01:07:27] Murray: No, at the

[01:07:27] end, like we understand the shortcomings, but of all the things that George Lucas toys around with these movies, no, do that. that's

[01:07:34] something that would be

[01:07:36] Jon: it's funny. You mentioned that the carbon freezing room, because both in this scene, in the cave and in the carbon freezing room, it really does validate that Darth Vader is iconic because in both scenes, specifically in the carbon freeze in the room, there's a shot of just his silhouette.

[01:07:50] And just from his silhouette alone, it's the dark shadow of doom. It is Darth Vader. so when he says that line the force is strong, could be, you're not a Jetta yet. And you just see the black silhouette that's so fucking cool. And they do that a little bit in the cave when he arrived.

[01:08:04] You see his silhouette and then he watched them the frame and

[01:08:06] he's definitely iconic at this point. He hasn't been already

[01:08:09] Luke, as a character, he always changes over the course of the trilogy, from a naive boy to a headstrong student who thinks he knows more than he actually does to almost like a Zen, warrior monk, by the end of Return of the Jedi.

[01:08:21] Jon H: Luke was defined by his attachments to his friends in the field like day go by and the empire strikes back is where they solidify that idea. At least at this point in the story.

[01:08:31] And, just the idea of as the audience are like, what is the right choice to do? what would I do in this situation? And I think we would all agree if we were heroic figures in the galaxy or far, far away, we would do exactly what Luke did. We wouldn't just let

[01:08:46] Han and lay a die, And it's weird because Obi wan and Yoda said, you're not ready. You're going to fail. It's a mistake. I don't even necessarily think it's a mistake. I think it's just one of those things where it's just like, there's no choice. He just had to do it I don't know what type of person he would be if he didn't go.

[01:09:04] And let his friends die, so I feel like he had to do it. So it's like a false choice in a weird way, if the empire strikes back is where mythos are made about star wars is what the forces about.

[01:09:15] is also like what the characters are about. And this is the defining moment for Luke is when he's I got to go, sorry guys, I'm going to go. I don't care if I'm not ready, I'm going to go.

[01:09:24] Josh B: in one sense they are right. Cause he has his ass completely handed to him, the other.

[01:09:28] Jon H: he had to go.

[01:09:29] Josh B: But on the other hand, knowing what we know, there's a way to read that as they're manipulating him because they're concerned that if he goes and faces, Vader and Vader, lets Luke know that he's actually his father, that they're going to lose their shot to defeat Vader and the.

[01:09:48] Jon H: Yeah. And they think that he will join Vader possibly,

[01:09:52] Josh B: worried that he might join Vader. And I think as an audience we're supposed to be, we're

[01:09:56] Jon H: More supposed to be worried. too.

[01:09:58] Josh B: Not even just in this movie, I think that at the beginning of the next movie, we're supposed to be worried about what choice he's going to make.

[01:10:04] Jon H: I think we're supposed to doubt where Luke could go,

[01:10:07] Josh B: don't think that fear is ever really

[01:10:10] genuine.

[01:10:11] Jon H: there's, but their purpose really drawn is these, as silhouette, when he's walking to the door, it looks

[01:10:17] Josh B: sure,

[01:10:18] Jon H: silhouette. they're doing that on purpose. I know.

[01:10:20] Josh B: totally.

[01:10:21] Jon H: are the good guys going to win? Yes, they're going to win.

[01:10:23] Is he going to go bad? Probably not, but it's just, they're definitely want to put

[01:10:26] Josh B: For sure.

[01:10:27] Jon H: tension

[01:10:28] J Murray: the thing that I got this time, watching it after the Boba Fett episode with Luke is Luke gives groggy the same choice that was given to him by Yoda, basically

[01:10:40] like, yeah, I didn't, it's not exactly phrased the same, but it is. very similar. Yeah.

[01:10:47] Jon H: I argue that he gave him a choice, whereas Yoda was like, just don't do it.

[01:10:51] J Murray: true. But No, he does say

[01:10:52] Josh B: I mean he didn't stop him.

[01:10:53] J Murray: it's very similar to what Luke says,

[01:10:56] like if you go, But one thing that was, interesting about this and it's something that I actually think that the prequels make, stronger is. there's this really cool thing of not understanding of prophecy, right. Because it's like, oh, If he is not it then all hope is lost. Yeah. Yep. which is interesting with obiwan have been like, No this is the chosen one. Trust me like this. And then you'll does not really sure. But then what I don't think was written or thought of at the time that the SQLs do pre-calls do make ' stronger is that there is now a history of them thinking that anagen was the chosen one that was going to bring balance to the force, but then that proves to be wrong or so to speak.

[01:11:41] I still think the prophecy was correct, but then,

[01:11:43] so they go like it does. Yeah, Yep. so that's like a cool thing. they're always seemingly wrong about the prophecy, but then actually with Jedi,

[01:11:52] if you watch it straight through, they were right. All along. But it has, just with less malice, but like it's something that is Developed in, less than patient of Christ, right? When, like that's the big problem that the Harvey tells characters Jesus is having is that misunderstanding what, Jesus was supposed to be for, he thought it was going to be like to overthrow in and change

[01:12:11] Jon H: Hmm.

[01:12:12] J Murray: like a, not like a betrayal there, but just like a, your world crashes around you. And I feel like that's what happens to Yoda when Luke flies off? No,

[01:12:21] to obiwan because Yoda is still thinking that there is another one, from OB Wan's point of view.

[01:12:26] It's like, fuck, I put all my eggs in his dad's basket. That sounds weird. and then that didn't work out. So I was, maybe I was wrong. I had the wrong Skywalker it's Luke and then Luke flies off and he's like, well, shit, like what the fuck? Like.

[01:12:38] Josh B: and all the time he put into watching over Luke and protecting Luke, like he has a lot in, he has a lot invested

[01:12:43] in, in Luke,

[01:12:44] J Murray: doubling down

[01:12:46] Josh B: Yeah.

[01:12:47] J Murray: of what happened with Anik and like, oh, I was,

[01:12:49] Josh B: Right,

[01:12:49] J Murray: wrong. I thought, but it's, there's also the cool thing of a, story's not done and told stone. Right. All

[01:12:55] Josh B: right.

[01:12:55] J Murray: They thought they had the right.

[01:12:57] person. And then for decades, they're like, now that prophecy was wrong, Anacon,

[01:13:01] wasn't

[01:13:01] Jon H: right.

[01:13:02] J Murray: the chosen one, But it's like the story wasn't over until it was like over.

[01:13:06] Josh B: that's a really interesting, parallel that I never would have made, You also, brought up the, no, there was another, which is a really interesting. can of worms, I believe George Lucas has said like the whole reason that was in there was to, put the thought in the audience's mind, oh, Luke might lose and die

[01:13:22] J Murray: From a writers point of view, I actually, do like backing yourself into a corner so that you have to get out and but I feel like that even now, just always read as false

[01:13:32] Josh B: right.

[01:13:33] J Murray: me of the story I heard. vinyl?

[01:13:35] Was that Martin Scorsese,

[01:13:36] Josh B: Yeah. Oh Yeah.

[01:13:38] That's you on HBO? Yeah.

[01:13:39] J Murray: dice? Clay was supposed to get like killed off and he kept improv in a, line. Like my twin brother will avenge me. just in case because he didn't want to be off the show for good. Like If he could convince Martin squares.

[01:13:50] Josh B: such a wild reference, man.

[01:13:52] J Murray: I know, well, like, so it reminds me of

[01:13:54] Josh B: It's so funny.

[01:13:55] J Murray: this to be like, no, there is another leaving a back door open that they have no idea who the other could even be. They're not?

[01:14:04] thinking layer. They're not thinking

[01:14:05] Josh B: No, they're definitely not thinking layup, This gets into return to the Jedi territory, but, that's the reason that line is there to plant the seed in the audience's mind. Oh, maybe it doesn't all hinge on Luke and Luke, he could die and he's quote unquote, disposable or whatever.

[01:14:19] I know from hearing about it, obviously I wasn't around, but there was a lot of speculation in between empire and Jedi about who the other was.

[01:14:28] J Murray: I was wondering how much that line would have landed

[01:14:32] back then, or if it was just like a throw away

[01:14:35] line.

[01:14:35] Josh B: you can read in Usenet, message boards that are archived. you can read what the speculation was. And also, letters to the editor section of magazines, like, star log and all that stuff.

[01:14:44] Like you can read what fan speculation was who could fill

[01:14:48] Luke shoes, who could,

[01:14:49] J Murray: I could see, cause I can't separate what I know that's why, like, when you were saying like, Luke is supposed to be like, oh, will he go bad? It's like, you just. Ever think of that, being a possibility. Cause you know, story, but I wonder how you would get nervous oh, maybe Luke and then so when he starting to lose you just like click.

[01:15:08] Jon H: One, I do remember, cause I, I remember a lot about my life and when I was watching this movie for the first time I remember, being like, oh my God, there's someone else out there. And then like my dad or whatever, or my mom, maybe he was just yeah, like there's another person that there who could possibly be the hero.

[01:15:27] but they didn't spoil anything for me yet. I didn't, I still didn't know. I was like, I still remember the revelations as they came, which was kinda cool.

[01:15:34] Josh B: Your mom did good.

[01:15:35] J Murray: Yeah.

[01:15:35] Jon H: or my dad, whoever it was, but my parents let's just say my.

[01:15:38] Josh B: Parents did great.

[01:15:39] Jon H: there you go. you guys are talking about prefacing and stuff like that.

[01:15:43] What's interesting is that they don't even get into that with the original trilogy. It's just, he's the last one. He's the only hope. even if he's Steve-O from jackass, he's the last hope and they have to make sure that this goes right.

[01:15:55] So

[01:15:55] Josh B: watch that

[01:15:56] movie. I would

[01:15:56] Jon H: exactly, and it has to be done.

[01:15:59] And so it has to be extremely frustrating for these characters see this headstrong, young, 20 something year old and be like, no, I'm going to do my own thing. It's like, motherfucker, like you said, like I waited 20 something years for this,

[01:16:10] J Murray: Yeah,

[01:16:11] let's get back to this jacket star wars crossover. My name is Johnny Knoxville and this is the Sarlacc

[01:16:16] bungee jump.

[01:16:17] Like, come on.

[01:16:20] Josh B: Before we move on from that there is another line, the light on Yoda's face, the light in that whole shot is, is one of the most beautiful shots in the whole.

[01:16:30] Jon H: They do this great thing with, and, kudos to the lighting department on this, but it's just the light from his X wing,

[01:16:36] leaving and going.

[01:16:37] Josh B: and

[01:16:37] you don't see it. It's all in the

[01:16:39] lighting. It's

[01:16:39] all in the

[01:16:40] lighting and you hear it. Yeah.

[01:16:43] Jon H: you see Alec Guinness and he's a ghost. then the light goes away from him.

[01:16:47] And then when the light comes back, he's no longer there, but his voice

[01:16:50] J Murray: no, no. What's like,

[01:16:52] Jon H: subtle, amazing cinema cinematic, just like

[01:16:55] Josh B: That's the Kurdish

[01:16:56] man. That's Kersh

[01:16:57] J Murray: there's some cool things that I was thinking of in terms of what we said earlier with the world that happened in between the two movies. just imagine like Yoda, just sitting there then obiwan shows up as a ghost. There would be some sort of heartbreak, even though He's more powerful than you could ever, but just like, oh, like you died, man. Like, maybe he felt that in the forest, but like, you know, it's. like the, first time he sees obiwan, as it goes, it would

[01:17:24] be like,

[01:17:25] like startling now.

[01:17:26] Josh B: that's interesting because I don't get the impression that was necessarily the

[01:17:30] first time,

[01:17:30] J Murray: I'm saying like, in between

[01:17:33] Jon H: He's talking about the

[01:17:34] J Murray: like.

[01:17:35] Jon H: story in between

[01:17:36] J Murray: Yeah. Like just a

[01:17:37] Jon H: hope and empire.

[01:17:38] J Murray: that's what I was thinking of. and then also, like poor chewy, with Han, like he, he thinks he's gonna freeze to death and then he's not. and then he gets frozen in Carbonite so it's Chewy's been going through like a whole emotional ride, in this

[01:17:52] movie too.

[01:17:53] Josh B: you reminded me of something, I used to really hate, that the prequels ruined the reveal of Yoda this movie. But then I realized something, for someone who has watched the men, the episode order, when they see Yoda again, they may for a second be like, what the fuck is wrong with Yoda?

[01:18:11] J Murray: Yo true. Like,

[01:18:12] Did he

[01:18:13] Jon H: He's crazy.

[01:18:14] Josh B: Yeah. Like, I always thought it would ruin that scene. When in actuality I realized no, they might be like, what happened to Yoda?

[01:18:20] How is this going to resolve? Has he just lost his fucking mind? He's been alone this whole time. dealing with the guilt and the everything. What

[01:18:27] is the matter with Yoda?

[01:18:28] J Murray: works. I'm wondering, is there like any sort of phrase for, the prequels are weird in the sense that they are prequels, but you're almost yeah,

[01:18:37] Josh B: continuity. no, but, I mean

[01:18:39] J Murray: but you're still meant to watch them in the same vein as like a sequel. I don't really think they're fully meant to be watched 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9.

[01:18:48] I still think that,

[01:18:50] Josh B: if you ask George Lucas, he does things.

[01:18:52] J Murray: really?

[01:18:53] Josh B: Yeah.

[01:18:54] Jon H: I think it's one of those things where it's like, This is a movie for kids, but there's stuff in it for adults. I feel like that's the way the prequels are for people. I've never seen star wars. these are meant to be seeing the episode, order a book for the people that had seen the original here's some winks and nods that like little kids, like when Palpatine says to, I'm going to look over your career with great

[01:19:16] Josh B: with

[01:19:16] great interest.

[01:19:17] Jon H: like, oh, but

[01:19:18] As a little kid to like, whatever, I don't get it. Like it doesn't take you out of the

[01:19:21] movie type of thing, you know?

[01:19:23] J Murray: it still ha like they're prequels, but you're still meant to see them

[01:19:27] Josh B: Not, oh, not from George Lucas's perspective. I would argue The main reason why that doesn't work is just the aesthetic, jumped from episode three to episode four. It's like the style of filmmaking it's like really hard to make that leap,

[01:19:40] Jon H: but also think of robs the original trilogy of hard earned moments. to go into the empire strikes back already knowing that Vader is his father really does diminish the

[01:19:52] story build up to that, you know,

[01:19:54] Josh B: let's talk about that. Moving on from diggaba to, cloud city,

[01:19:58] Cloud city as a kid was my favorite environment in star wars.

[01:20:03] just something about the color and the art deco design, and it's just so beautiful.

[01:20:08] It's so moody. It's so gorgeous. it's like a city in the clouds it's also like a representation of hell, especially in the carbon freezing chamber. And there's something about the, mood it's very unsettling.

[01:20:17] it really draws you in

[01:20:19] Jon H: It works perfectly for the movie

[01:20:20] because there is something, it looks so nice when they show up

[01:20:24] Josh B: on the outside.

[01:20:25] Jon H: white and this like perpetual dusk. like you said, there's something underneath and you go to like a metaphorical hell there's. Crazy dynamic sets and cloud city.

[01:20:35] the carbon freezing room is pretty obvious, but let's also go into the last, part of the duel with, Vader and Luke were like, they're in the hallway and he's throwing all this stuff at him,

[01:20:44] Josh B: Yeah.

[01:20:44] Jon H: hallway. Like the floor is lit up like the Billy Jean music video. just like there's crazy lights and sets and windows and like matte paintings going on.

[01:20:55] Like it's extremely dynamic and best been cloud city. it gets very like, don't know, like Fritz Lang metropolis type stuff it just seems like they're going all out crazy with the sets. And I really love that.

[01:21:07] Josh B: so now, we're introduced to Lando, which is really interesting because he's introduced so late in the movie.

[01:21:13] Jon H: And he's a full fledged character.

[01:21:16] J Murray: yeah,

[01:21:16] exactly. Yeah.

[01:21:17] Jon H: Yeah,

[01:21:18] Josh B: and I love the gag he plays on hon

[01:21:21] J Murray: got a

[01:21:21] Josh B: lot of guts coming here. And like, hon, he's like maybe I did do something like, I

[01:21:26] don't know what's going

[01:21:26] J Murray: totally gets them.

[01:21:28] Jon H: I love how Harrison actually puts his hands up to defend himself because he actually

[01:21:31] Josh B: yeah.

[01:21:32] Jon H: but he looks scared in this space, oh

[01:21:33] Josh B: And not only is it a great way to introduce the character? Not only is it funny, not only is it really well acted, but it also, it disarms you, little bit because you're worried about what's going to happen here. And he plays into that. It's oh, okay. Like This is dangerous.

[01:21:48] And it's like, no, man, I'm just fucking with you.

[01:21:49] Actually the opposite. It isn't, disarming, they, really lean into that. This isn't what it seems like on the surface.

[01:21:55] Jon H: even, he's like, are they friends? And then like chewy says something and then Hahn's that was a long time ago,

[01:22:00] Josh B: he's forgotten about that.

[01:22:01] Jon H: yeah, exactly. So you already know that there's some form of bad blood, a little bit between them.

[01:22:08] J Murray: but it's,

[01:22:08] it's it works.

[01:22:09] Josh B: friendship, one of the best parts of solo for me was the interaction between Han and Lando

[01:22:14] Jon H: Yup.

[01:22:15] Josh B: having that as backstory, that whole dynamic, it, it totally works

[01:22:20] watching this movie. It's it's

[01:22:22] perfect. Yeah. It's really good.

[01:22:24] J Murray: solo was for a movie that didn't need to be made or at all that I think that's why it's held up so good. they knew what to focus on without trying to like, reinvent the wheel, it's

[01:22:33] Jon H: a good movie.

[01:22:34] Josh B: I think it's all of those. Great. And it's interesting because, Lawrence Kasdan who wrote solo, he co-wrote it actually with his son.

[01:22:40] Jon H: And he's also the writer of the empire strikes

[01:22:42] back.

[01:22:42] Josh B:

[01:22:42] he always said, his favorite character was, Han solo. And, when they Lorde him, to co-write the force awakens, the carrot that they gave him was, and then you can write your own movie, whatever you want.

[01:22:54] And he was like, I want to do young Han solo.

[01:22:57] That's what I want to do.

[01:22:58] J Murray: cool.

[01:22:59] Josh B: So,

[01:22:59] J Murray: that it was handled with care, there's something going on with cloud city, with Han that's that vibe of, it's not what it seems, but there's a similar thing happening to Lando where it's not what it seems for him either, because he has a deal that he made in the best interest of his people that keeps getting changed on him.

[01:23:18] so It's like cool where they're both like in the same boat in that,

[01:23:21] Josh B: Yeah, totally. it's so good. the circumstances for both of them, they are in really shitty circumstances trying to do the best that they can. And it still has really horrible ramifications for

[01:23:31] Jon H: Exactly. And you could see the frustration and Billy Dee volumes grow

[01:23:36] and grow. And then, duty. He was, like he was probably best known actor they got besides like Alec Guinness, he was Billy Dee Williams when they got

[01:23:45] Josh B: Yeah. Which

[01:23:46] I think the casting of that was, part of a way to do the characterization for them a little bit. Like they knew that, Billy Dee Williams reputation proceeded him and because he's introduced to late in the movie, they think, perhaps where using the audience's knowledge of him to inform the characterization of the character.

[01:24:04] Jon H: It's like when you get like Tom cruise to be somebody that comes with the Tom cruise,

[01:24:08] Josh B: Yeah. Stuff. Yeah.

[01:24:10] J Murray: That's why when he was in Valkyrie, he was just like, no, I'm Tom cruise. I just wear a Nazi uniform.

[01:24:14] Jon H: there you go.

[01:24:15] Josh B: Yeah.

[01:24:16] J Murray: a.

[01:24:16] Jon H: the good guy because he's Tom cruise. Tom cruise is a really good actor.

[01:24:19] Josh B: Yeah. The problem is that you can never forget that he's Tom cruise.

[01:24:22] J Murray: this same thing happens with like Brad Pitt. He'll be good, but you're always like, no, that's Brad Pitt as that's

[01:24:27] Tom cruise as

[01:24:27] Jon H: saying.

[01:24:28] One thing I think forgot to talk about, earlier in the movie was the introduction of Boba Fett. And, watched the original version, so that also meant that he had the original voice.

[01:24:38] Josh B: Yeah. The original voice, the line readings are way,

[01:24:41] way more interesting.

[01:24:43] Jon H: motherfucker

[01:24:44] Josh B: Yeah.

[01:24:45] Jon H: and with the new voice, we're going back to the very perfunctory matter of fact, you see the difference when he says no, disintegrations

[01:24:51] Josh B: As you wish

[01:24:53] Jon H: Exactly. Like that. And then the new one is as

[01:24:55] Josh B: as

[01:24:56] you wish.

[01:24:56] Yeah. Right? Yeah.

[01:24:58] Jon H: But, it's so funny, but we're talking about execution here. It's like the same lines set in a different way. changes it ever so slightly. And he was more sinister. Before they got into the prequels.

[01:25:09] J Murray: like it's been like an ongoing thing to try to soften Boba Fett once he like up as much as he did, but it's like, you kind of knew he was going to, so why are you surprised? Like you made the action figure? Like it's that was the whole point of the character was like

[01:25:22] how popular he was.

[01:25:24] Right.

[01:25:24] Josh B: yes. again, like I think he's, Again, this kind of gets into return of the Jedi territory, but the way he's conceived in this movie and the way he's played in this movie, in film, star wars in live action, star wars. This is the only time he's really played that way.

[01:25:38] J Murray: Okay.

[01:25:39] Jon H: Oh yeah. That guy's like a real, like a scheming conniving sort of, low down dirty dude.

[01:25:44] first impressions go a long way because that's what you remember. And then two minutes into return, the Jedi he's gone. So the bulk of your memory of him is, him being

[01:25:51] this way.

[01:25:51] Josh B: I forget where I read this, but I read this recently and now I'm sorry not to give them credit, but, something I never picked up on is the way Vader is what Luke has the potential of becoming Boba Fett is what

[01:26:03] Jon H: Han could have

[01:26:04] become

[01:26:05] Josh B: dark version of Han solo would

[01:26:06] Jon H: that's very interesting. Yeah.

[01:26:08] Josh B: Vader is, Luke's masked, black hat version and, Boba Fett is the same thing to Han, like the dark reflection of Han solo.

[01:26:17] J Murray: that.

[01:26:17] Josh B: some, real quick things, that Han and lay a scene of something must have happened to three people he's been gone too long.

[01:26:23] I've gotten lost They reshot that scene. They showed the original version, I think an empire of dreams or something, they reshot that scene because it wasn't quite hitting the right note for Irvin Kershner and Gary Kurtz agreed.

[01:26:36] So they reshot it. And it's so interesting because, if you watch the original version of the scene, it's fine. Like it works, I feel like another director, have say, okay, it's good enough, moving on. but every Kirschner was like, I don't think we got it.

[01:26:49] And they've remounted the scene. They've reshot the scene. don't think that's something, Lucas would have done. I don't think that's something George Lucas appreciated at the time was redoing a scene that he had already gotten in the can,

[01:27:02] J Murray: Yeah. Yup.

[01:27:02] Josh B: But I think that's the, paying attention to things that, makes this movie work on a level that none of the other star wars films do.

[01:27:12] it's interesting, right? this is a George Lucas movie that is executed by people cared about other aspects of filmmaking that George Lucas was less concerned with.

[01:27:21] Jon H: Yes, George, notoriously hates directing and hates dealing with actors and he would write, he hates the

[01:27:27] shoot. He hates shooting a movie. He likes to edit it.

[01:27:30] J Murray: So it's

[01:27:30] what? Just fucking edit then, bro.

[01:27:32] It's your

[01:27:33] creation?

[01:27:33] Josh B: there's a validity to that version of star wars. The problem is that we got this movie and we got it and we got it second. And it's set the bar for star wars.

[01:27:44] So high,

[01:27:45] that would argue the reason the sagas still exists and is more alive than ever arguably is because this movie knocked it out of the park

[01:27:53] J Murray: Yeah. this movie makes you think that you're getting like the Beatles, discography, but in reality you get like one Beatles album and the rest are like, foo fighters or some that's good and enjoyable, but it's

[01:28:03] not like

[01:28:04] Josh B: but not that.

[01:28:05] J Murray: We're like Weezer.

[01:28:07] Jon H: exactly this has shown wonderfully, and the making of star wars books by was a Rinzler JW

[01:28:14] passed.

[01:28:15] Josh B: who passed away within the last year, wait to young.

[01:28:18] Those are amazing books.

[01:28:20] Jon H: best part I feel like of the empire strikes back book is that somebody by the grace of God had a tape recorder on set, when they're shooting the scene where Han solo gets frozen.

[01:28:30] they transcribe the entire tape you actually read, quote unquote in real time, then discovering the moment of, I love you. and you see the organic way that they go about it. And I've encouraged. Her is like you were saying, Josh is like, this isn't working. feel like we can do this and that.

[01:28:46] And that then he's then you see him talking to Harrison. Harrison's like, I feel like I wouldn't be saying, I love you. And then they're not even just talking about them. They're talking about what the characters might be doing. and he's like chewy, w should we would probably just jump in and protect or whatever.

[01:29:00] He's like, yeah. Like where should he be standing? then they're like, oh God, now we got to change how we do this with Lando, Billy come over here and then delete Elaine's comes over. then you're talking to Carrie Fisher. And that's why the movies a masterpiece is because they put in the effort and the time.

[01:29:14] it's not just

[01:29:14] like,

[01:29:15] oh, it's on the pay.

[01:29:17] J Murray: of knowing it's not working before it's, too late. I feel as an editor, George Lucas might just be

[01:29:22] like,

[01:29:23] it in post.

[01:29:24] Jon H: Maybe, but these are also aspects of filmmaking that happens on like a drama, if they're shooting, like Sophie's choice, they would do this

[01:29:31] Josh B: my only quibble with what you're saying, I agree with you, but I would frame it slightly differently. I don't think that George Lucas is not willing to put in the time or the effort. I just think for him. These movies work in another mode of cinema

[01:29:45] Jon H: right. not to be so basic as this, but it's like, if you had a moment like this and like the fast and furious or something like that, where it's just. The mode of that movie is something else. What it's, what they're trying to do is something else there's merit to that, that George Lucas wasn't wrong.

[01:29:58] God goddammit. He made star wars. So he's on the, he knows what he's doing, we're just talking about the reason why this movie is

[01:30:04] different

[01:30:05] Josh B: I agree.

[01:30:06] Jon H: why this movie is different.

[01:30:07] Josh B: Yes, exactly

[01:30:08] Jon H: why this movie hasn't quite been replicated again, because I still feel like they're not willing to over schedule.

[01:30:16] They still have release dates before they have scripts and stuff like that.

[01:30:19] J Murray: and then a lot of it is the action sequence, right? I, know, I don't know if it's the same for star wars, but like in Marvel movies, I think the act action sequences are before they even get like a director. so the directors hired to just bring story the characters, talking to the action points.

[01:30:37] Jon H: I think I heard about that with the director who did, black Panther,

[01:30:40] Josh B: Ryan Coogler.

[01:30:41] Jon H: I think I heard a story about how he was like, oh, I wonder how I'm gonna do the action scene. And someone was like, oh no, someone else is gonna do it for you. he was like, what are you talking about? but now we're just talking about different modes of filmmaking,

[01:30:51] J Murray: But that's what I think sets us apart is that,

[01:30:53] those movies. they're so factory made that you don't, and even if you take someone that's great, like Ryan Johnson, he still gets more sucked into the factory aspect of it than he would on any of his other movies

[01:31:06] Jon H: this is just a perfect example of intention and execution, coming together in a very beautiful way where it's like, they're like, no guys, what is the intention of what we're doing? oh, it's this? Then we got to do it this way. And then they

[01:31:18] did it.

[01:31:19] Josh B: the way to understand this movie. Again, I'm going to bring up the eyes of Laura Mars. I watched this movie and it was such a revelation because, having the two movies, to compare seeing the story and what it was and how good the movie itself was the ability he had to really elevate the material, find those human moments, there were so many moments in, the eyes of Laura Mars, where I'm like, they found that on the day. I bet that, that,

[01:31:45] Jon H: Good day.

[01:31:46] Josh B: in the script, so the same way he elevates, what could be a very schlocky, supernatural, thriller. He elevated, the comic book, flash Gordon, homage.

[01:31:56] J Murray: Yeah.

[01:31:56] Josh B: he elevated that as well.

[01:31:58] And when I say the empire strikes back ruined star wars,

[01:32:02] J Murray: I agree.

[01:32:03] Josh B: this is what I mean, it's because it

[01:32:05] turns out it's because it turns out this was the exception, not the rule.

[01:32:11] J Murray: exactly. But it's so, good. it has Yoda. It has, I am a father, it's got the ATA T has got so many, like

[01:32:19] things that people know it's got Boba fat Lando. So people associate this with being bigger. it's obviously very big, but it's like you lose sight that this is only one movie out of mostly like mediocre movies that we

[01:32:35] love to death.

[01:32:36] But,

[01:32:36] Jon H: it's just a different game

[01:32:38] Josh B: I want to talk about I am your father, because that has been called, the greatest twist in cinematic history.

[01:32:45] Jon H: I

[01:32:46] would say,

[01:32:46] J Murray: I could say it.

[01:32:47] Jon H: yeah,

[01:32:47] Josh B: the case is very strong. but for me, it's in that moment also in retrospect ruined star wars,

[01:32:54] J Murray: Yeah.

[01:32:54] Josh B: your point of view, When Darth Vader says, no, I am your father Luke Skywalker. It becomes a story about a father and a son. It becomes a story about a family.

[01:33:04] It becomes a story about legacy and it creates a trilogy sized hole the prequels are conceived in that

[01:33:12] Jon H: to this.

[01:33:14] Josh B: a backstory here, right?

[01:33:16] And then, I think a lot of the future movies, draw the wrong lessons from this movie, they try to replicate the twist.

[01:33:23] They try to do like. who were they related to?

[01:33:25] Jon H: who are raised parents? Uh,

[01:33:27] Josh B: That all starts here. And, the wrong lessons are taken from why this movie works.

[01:33:33] it's not because it's dark. It's not because it has a twist. this is where the Skywalker saga quote unquote starts right here in

[01:33:41] that moment. You know, that the next movie has to be about this.

[01:33:45] J Murray: There was no saga up until all this. Cause with that delivery, you're filling in even without like details, but like thoughts and emotions of a story that's that goes on, 20 years before this, even though you have no detail, but like in that deliver, like you just get everything dropped in like a future unseen and

[01:34:06] Josh B: It's this moment that completely alters the trajectory of what star wars

[01:34:10] movies are going to be.

[01:34:11] Jon H: it on its head, which

[01:34:12] makes it an amazing twist.

[01:34:14] J Murray: and I think that, and I could be 100% wrong on this, but it feels like this twist, if I'm going to talk from a writing point of view came about organically, where in the process, rather than the twist, then let's start writing the

[01:34:31] movie.

[01:34:32] Jon H: Right.

[01:34:32] Josh B: which, ties into something, that I wanted to ask you guys, Do you think that George Lucas always knew that Darth Vader was Luke Skywalker's

[01:34:40] J Murray: No

[01:34:40] Jon H: no. It's.

[01:34:41] J Murray: because in a new hope, his name is

[01:34:43] literally Darth

[01:34:44] Vader, that's not a

[01:34:45] title. Like,

[01:34:46] Jon H: he goes back and forth whether he had it all planned, but it's

[01:34:49] Josh B: well,

[01:34:50] Jon H: ha he did not have it all

[01:34:51] J Murray: Well, Certainly not details. I think you could plan and Josh, I'm sure you've done this in your writing too. Like all right. I want to shoot this like story or script, like out of a cannon right out of the bat. Like I just want to hit the ground running, like what we were saying before Your mid story, even when you start, everything's in motion, so I'm sure he had that idea of, there's a whole story. I'm sure. Before this, I don't know what it is, but. there's been like lifelong myth that he had this all planned out from the

[01:35:19] jump

[01:35:19] Jon H: You were

[01:35:20] J Murray: definitely

[01:35:20] Jon H: about, Yoda saying, no, there's another in this movie. George Lucas hedges his bets in a big way. One like, well, I don't know what if mark Hamill doesn't come back. We can just make it about someone else in

[01:35:31] J Murray: Um,

[01:35:32] Jon H: Ford because Harrison Ford didn't have a contract for a third movie.

[01:35:35] J Murray: okay. Wow. Yeah, yeah.

[01:35:37] Jon H: did that. And they were like, if Harrison Ford doesn't want to come back, we've already written them out and we have Lando to replace them.

[01:35:44] Josh B: who is literally wearing Han Solo's clothes and flying his ship with his best friend at the very end?

[01:35:50] Yes.

[01:35:51] Jon H: so there was no plan. He was like, I

[01:35:53] J Murray: yeah.

[01:35:54] Jon H: Ford to come. I want these things to happen, but he's hedging his bets he has his bets with a new hope. I don't know if I'm going to be, if I'm going to make any more movies. So they just blow up the main, bad guys base.

[01:36:05] And they're

[01:36:05] J Murray: Hmm.

[01:36:06] Jon H: dead Vader still floating out there in space. But like the movies over, you could

[01:36:09] just end star

[01:36:09] wars right there.

[01:36:10] J Murray: Which is what Josh said earlier

[01:36:13] Josh B: yes, exactly,

[01:36:14] Jon H: it's just, He doesn't quite know where the next steps going to be, but he's got a gut feeling of where he wants it to

[01:36:19] go.

[01:36:19] J Murray: all

[01:36:20] about writing yourself in a corner.

[01:36:21] Josh B: I think from a certain point of view when George Lucas, says that, or people tried out certain interviews where, it seems like George Lucas is saying that he always knew Vader was a father. That was always the plan.

[01:36:33] I think from a certain point of view, that's true. Like I can easily see how in George Lucas's mind, if you read the rough drafts of star wars, the various iterations, there is a father, it is about. The relationship, between father and son, it is about, passing something on.

[01:36:48] Jon H:

[01:36:48] The themes are

[01:36:49] Josh: It's sort of

[01:36:49] a cauldron of ideas that are swirling around. So when he says that always the plan from a certain point of view, that's true. It's just the details.

[01:36:58] Josh B: don't think he really, yeah. I don't think he realized that the Vader character and the father character were the same until he got into the writing of empire.

[01:37:07] Jon H: I agree

[01:37:08] J Murray: because A hundred percent.

[01:37:09] because they do certainly set up Atacand, Skywalker, your dad's lightsaber, your

[01:37:15] Josh B: Yeah.

[01:37:16] J Murray: uncle Owen being like, fuck your dad. Like he's no brother mine, so there is something there. And whether he was thinking that a dad might show up later, he might meet up with him as a rebel or something like that definitely possible.

[01:37:30] But no way. Cause even before the prequels come into play, at what point would Darth Vader have been like, Hey obiwan could you give this to my son? When he comes of age? I'm a bad guy now. And I

[01:37:39] Josh B: Right.

[01:37:40] J Murray: but please, if you would so even stuff like that fit, but I could see.

[01:37:44] He was going for an angle. And then all of a sudden something just clicked he probably looked back at what he had and he was like, oh fuck it. Like those I'll we'll figure out that, like, you know, those details aren't enough to spoil it.

[01:37:56] Josh B: believe there's a picture of George Lucas's notes on the script where, this may be in the JW w are making of empire, but you literally see. The page of the script where George Lucas in his own handwriting has written, Vader equals father exclamation point underlined circled,

[01:38:17] right?

[01:38:18] J Murray: figured that

[01:38:19] Josh B: Yeah. Like he just got the idea. Marie, what you were saying about like it's possible, we could see his father, down the road. The Leigh Brackett script, the very first script from George Lucas's, notes and his ideas and his outline.

[01:38:31] You see ghost of Anacon and Skywalker, and there's this whole like knighting ceremony with, the lightsaber where,

[01:38:38] J Murray: cuts off his arms. Cause you can't Knight somebody with a lightsaber.

[01:38:42] Josh B: where, he administers the Jedi oath or something to Luke in like an and nighttime, a Jedi Knight. Alan Dean foster, was hired to write splinter of the mind's eye, the first official SQL to star wars,

[01:38:55] J Murray: Is that not Canon anymore?

[01:38:56] Josh B: Yeah,

[01:38:57] Jon H: empire came out, I feel like,

[01:38:59] Josh B: it was actually written as a potential low budget sequel, just in case star wars, wasn't a huge success, but George Lucas had this, version of star wars. Where he saw it as like a James Bond, like franchise, where he would make the first one, he would create the world.

[01:39:14] And then he would invite all of his filmmaker friends to come in and make

[01:39:17] J Murray: oh

[01:39:17] Josh B: star wars movie.

[01:39:18] Jon H: star wars, for instance, for Coppola's star wars.

[01:39:20] J Murray: there was Francis for a couple of,

[01:39:22] star wars. It's called godfather,

[01:39:24] but

[01:39:25] Josh B: or

[01:39:26] J Murray: Hey,

[01:39:26] Josh B: could say star wars is, George Lucas has godfather and literally his apocalypse. Now he chose to direct star wars apocalypse now was actually supposed to be George Lucas's movie that he and John Millie is we're going to do together. And right after American graffiti, he chose to do star wars instead because he wanted to do something.

[01:39:43] Uplifting, rather than something about the Vietnam war and they're playing for, it was actually wild. Like they were actually going to go to Vietnam while the war was still happening and shoot it documentary style.

[01:39:53] J Murray: that doesn't sound like, that sounds like a bit like millions and

[01:39:56] the PAMA. That

[01:39:57] doesn't sound like a George Lucas at all.

[01:39:59] Josh B: man. He was a documentary filmmaker.

[01:40:01] He was a documentary and experimental filmmaker. So

[01:40:04] J Murray: No, I meant to go like

[01:40:05] Josh B: no, but that's what I'm saying. Like

[01:40:07] he, he,

[01:40:07] shot.

[01:40:09] J Murray: Uh,

[01:40:10] Josh B: yeah, no

[01:40:10] 100%.

[01:40:11] J Murray: idea.

[01:40:11] Jon H: Feel like we should get back to the empire strikes

[01:40:12] back

[01:40:13] Josh B: we should,

[01:40:14] so basically, gravity of. No, I am your father completely warps the trajectory and the shape of what star

[01:40:22] wars is It is not the like James Bond franchise where it's a new adventure, blah, blah, blah. but Alan Dean foster, getting back to splinter of the mind's eye when he met with George Lucas, to get the notes for what, the guidelines should be. George Lucas specifically said that, Vader was a nobody. He's just a flunky. The

[01:40:39] villain is the real villain is the emperor.

[01:40:41] Jon H: Yeah.

[01:40:41] J Murray: Yeah.

[01:40:42] in the first one, he's like more just like an attack dog

[01:40:45] Josh B: Yeah.

[01:40:46] J Murray: else.

[01:40:46] Jon H: what makes Vader important besides him being a bad-ass and chucking up, lieutenants left and right is basically his relationship to Luke, cause he just seems like an evil presence and now that they established the emperor and he's like literally kneeling in front of them, he is a flunky.

[01:41:01] But it's because of his connection to Luke that makes them way more important than The emperor could ever be.

[01:41:06] J Murray: henchman is still just a henchman, interesting about the, no, I'm your father being like a final twist because the movie has like a bunch of twists, The big battles right upfront, they're in a cave. Oh wait. No, That's not a cave. Oh, they're in cloud city. Everything's

[01:41:21] Josh B: That's true.

[01:41:21] J Murray: it's not safe. Oh, there's this crazy guy. No, wait it's Yoda. And so like, you are kind of like one revelation after another, but they're minor.

[01:41:28] And so when you get this, it's just

[01:41:30] Jon H: exactly.

[01:41:31] J Murray: you up with like jabs and then it comes in like the haymaker.

[01:41:34] Jon H: Another jab moment too, is, when Lando frees them and he's there's still time to save hand and you're like, oh really? And they don't.

[01:41:41] J Murray: Yeah.

[01:41:41] Jon H: like a little

[01:41:42] minor twist as well.

[01:41:43] Josh B: John, we've talked about this in the past, the culmination of that whole

[01:41:46] Jon H: Yes, sir.

[01:41:47] Josh B: trying to reach, the slave one,

[01:41:49] Jon H: And escaping from cloud city,

[01:41:50] Josh B: when they were escaping from cloud city and they're running out to the Falcon like that for me

[01:41:54] Jon H: uh,

[01:41:56] Josh B: Is my favorite. I don't know what you want to call it. moment sequence, scene in star wars. it's not one thing it's really the alchemy of it. The stakes, the music, the color, the

[01:42:06] Jon H: The urgency with the actor is when he's like lay on go and

[01:42:09] all that, stuff.

[01:42:10] Josh B: that, little few minutes where running across the landing pad to get to the Falcon and they're shooting at the stormtroopers and then they take off like that for me, for whatever reason is my favorite star

[01:42:21] wars moment. I don't know. I don't know why.

[01:42:23] Jon H: It's funny because that goes right into mine, which is a little bit more cliche, but that's going straight into a Vader and Luke, when they really go into the depths of cloud city and the revelations there's something about. The way they shoot their duel. I love the three phases of it.

[01:42:39] I love how it starts off with, Vader's is toying with Luke fighting with one hand and then easily he's like all too easy. He thinks it's he thinks he has it in the bag, Luke keeps it up. So then Vader shows him how powerful the force is by throwing all this luggage at him. And he sends them through a window and yet Luke still persists and he still persists.

[01:43:00] And then Vader at this point, he's like, okay, I'm going to take my belt off and beat him into a corner. what's actually powerful about that moment, is for the rare occurrence in the star wars movie, they're like no music and no music and it makes it way more, imposing and he just comes out fucking a hundred miles an hour.

[01:43:21] Boom, boom

[01:43:22] heaven. And He's driving. Yeah,

[01:43:24] Josh B: with this game. I have a point I want to get to it. Yeah.

[01:43:28] Jon H: might kill him

[01:43:30] if

[01:43:30] J Murray: the only reason he doesn't kill him is he doesn't want to kill

[01:43:34] Jon H: you could almost hear the abusive words coming of his mouth. You're making me do this. Don't

[01:43:38] J Murray: Yeah.

[01:43:39] Josh B: Yeah, yeah, dude.

[01:43:40] Jon H: that to his son, you know? And then,

[01:43:44] Josh B: he has to end it.

[01:43:45] Jon H: and, but men like

[01:43:48] J Murray: Hidden to get his hand cut off. I would never expect that in star wars.

[01:43:51] Jon H: exactly. And leading up into that moment, like it's a high shot. There's an infinite abyss below them, surrounded by the brilliant lights of the matte painting in the mirrors. The glowing sabers they've sparked when it hit the railings. And when they hit a railing, it's like a, it's like bone

[01:44:08] Josh B: Yeah.

[01:44:09] J Murray: Yeah.

[01:44:10] Josh B: Shout

[01:44:10] Jon H: Mickey's. Yes. And also shout out to mic-ing. And, uh, we were talking about the book of both, but when he's like, when you're defining the space that you're having action and in all, at least that moment, man, where he's like, talking hard to he's like, don't make me fucking destroy.

[01:44:23] You. it looks like, no, fuck you. And he hits him in the shoulder and when he hits him in the

[01:44:27] J Murray: He's like, all right. I'm I'm yeah.

[01:44:29] Josh B: We are done.

[01:44:31] Jon H: And then he cuts off his fucking arm

[01:44:33] Josh B: I'm turning this car around right now.

[01:44:34] J Murray: well, it's

[01:44:35] like a NIGO Montoya, right? Like the faders just being like using his left hand, not doing anything. And then when he gets hit and he's just like, all right, yeah. this

[01:44:44] Jon H: yeah.

[01:44:44] J Murray: done playing with you.

[01:44:45] Jon H: the culmination of them fighting on that catwalk to me is like my favorite star wars moment. I think it's because of that word, the culmination, it's the culmination of those two characters coming to a, like an organic conflict.

[01:44:57] J Murray: Hmm.

[01:44:58] Jon H: movie is going literally just going, like, just watch,

[01:45:01] J Murray: Yeah. That shit. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:45:02] Jon H: and I fucking love that

[01:45:04] J Murray: That's cool.

[01:45:06] Jon H: happens

[01:45:06] J Murray: Yeah.

[01:45:06] Jon H: right after, Josh's favorite moment, like

[01:45:09] how perfect is this movie, man?

[01:45:10] J Murray: And way after my favorite moment. My favorite moments when Han solo comes back in a new hope.

[01:45:16] Jon H: I

[01:45:16] J Murray: That's my favorite star wars movement.

[01:45:18] Jon H: character moment , when land was like already made a deal and the door

[01:45:21] J Murray: Hmm, Hmm. Oh yeah.

[01:45:23] Jon H: is Hondu? He doesn't

[01:45:24] Josh B: he shoots

[01:45:25] Jon H: takes out his gun and starts

[01:45:26] shooting him.

[01:45:27] J Murray: Yeah.

[01:45:27] Josh B: when he's in the corner, his first instinct is to

[01:45:30] J Murray: Yeah.

[01:45:30] Josh B: he doesn't even skip a beat. he just pulls out his gun and he's tries to kill him.

[01:45:34] Jon H: action. That's

[01:45:34] J Murray: Yeah.

[01:45:35] Jon H: and character story through just him doing it.

[01:45:38] J Murray: And that's the way it should be. Like if you're at war and you have the opportunity to end that war with no one else dying except for the person that's causing it.

[01:45:48] Jon H: And there's also, his other hand is holding Leo. Who's behind him and it almost looks like she's tugging on him a little bit, or you don't know if he's protecting her, but it's all there to just project onto, which has great choreography. It's great.

[01:45:59] blocking for actors is great.

[01:46:01] J Murray: But yeah, the no hesitation.

[01:46:03] Jon H: Yeah.

[01:46:04] Josh B: up on that, the culmination of the combination, if you will.

[01:46:07] Luke decides to kill himself.

[01:46:09] Jon H: Yes. Yes.

[01:46:11] J Murray: until I was older and

[01:46:12] learned what depression

[01:46:13] Josh B: totally lost on me. when I was a kid. But he's like, okay, I'm backed into a corner.

[01:46:17] I E between a rock and a hard place, I'm going to choose death.

[01:46:21] J Murray: Yeah.

[01:46:22] Jon H: And his face when he does it

[01:46:24] is very calm.

[01:46:25] J Murray: Yeah.

[01:46:26] It's that same kind of

[01:46:27] peace that he had

[01:46:28] when he's trying to get his lightsaber, he

[01:46:31] Josh B: Um,

[01:46:31] J Murray: so he

[01:46:32] Jon H: Um,

[01:46:32] J Murray: that like calm about him book so he could like gather the strength to do what, what needs to be done to get out of the situation.

[01:46:39] Jon H: And it's like a message to his father. I'm choosing this over you. but that's when something snaps, I think invaders brain,

[01:46:46] Josh B: He's like, oh shit. my, designs on how this is all going to play out

[01:46:50] is not the way.

[01:46:51] Jon H: And the culmination of this, use that word over and over again, is at the end when he's trying to telepathically talk to his son, and then they go off into hyperspace that moment, they've already established in the movie and when stuff like that happens, he kills the person that let them go.

[01:47:06] So the entire bridge is looking at Vader like who's he going to kill? And he just walks away and he's

[01:47:13] lost in his mind

[01:47:15] Josh B: so powerful.

[01:47:16] hearing you, that moment as like a snap and Vader, like now all I can think of while he's walking silently across the bridge is he is literally rethinking all his life choices.

[01:47:28] Jon H: Yes.

[01:47:28] J Murray: Yeah,

[01:47:29] Jon H: And, to take a too dark and you think about the abusive father metaphor, but if you think about it, abusing his kids so much that his kid kills himself

[01:47:37] Josh B: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:47:39] Jon H: fuck, hit

[01:47:40] rock bottom. like you said, Josh, he's rethinking everything.

[01:47:44] And that's why I'm returning to the Jedi

[01:47:45] Josh B: He's a different

[01:47:46] cat. He's a different

[01:47:47] a different guy because a different, yeah.

[01:47:48] J Murray: is it coincidental that he survives that or does Vader help him survive

[01:47:54] Jon H: No

[01:47:55] Josh B: no, no, I don't think so. Yeah. I think

[01:47:58] chance.

[01:47:58] Jon H: to establish it is that

[01:48:00] Josh B: it's like sucking air.

[01:48:01] so that's where all the wind is coming from.

[01:48:03] Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

[01:48:05] Jon H: sucking air and all the garbage out of the vents into this, into the sky.

[01:48:08] J Murray: This is going back a little bit in the movie, but this the only time aside from, I want to say last Jedi, that they've explored, Luke's like force power of being able to see the future or a possibility of the future.

[01:48:22] Josh B: I believe so.

[01:48:24] J Murray: cause he has that,

[01:48:25] the visions about Han and all them before they even get to cloud

[01:48:29] Jon H: there's no visions like this in the new hope. This is the

[01:48:31] first time they established that

[01:48:32] and then her

[01:48:33] J Murray: the last time up until he talks about reading Ben solos, future.

[01:48:38] Jon H: But that's also the reason why Atacand goes bad is because he has a lot of visions about Padma

[01:48:43] J Murray: True. and there Could be,

[01:48:44] one reason why a Luke's kind of could see his dad's has hope like,

[01:48:49] Jon H: could be,

[01:48:50] J Murray: them cause he could

[01:48:51] Josh B: yeah, it could be,

[01:48:52] Jon H: it could be.

[01:48:53] Josh B: one more

[01:48:53] thing on that, decision to let go. And as far as he's concerned, he's choosing to die. Marie, that's another reversal that you're not expecting. you don't expect the hero to kill himself.

[01:49:04] J Murray: Yeah. if this was made nowadays or like when they try to say with, not taking shots at less, should I, I'm mixed on it, but I lean mostly towards liking it, but like

[01:49:13] Josh B: Oh, I will convert you.

[01:49:15] J Murray: there's so much, in, right, how are we gonna flip this on its head?

[01:49:19] rather than just just tell the story for the sake of the story dictates everything. And, don't try to beat it to the punch I've had instances where I had a character in mind and that they have a conversation and by the time the conversation is done, the main character's sexuality has changed and I have to go back and

[01:49:35] Josh B: Sure.

[01:49:35] J Murray: because it

[01:49:36] Josh B: Yeah, I get you.

[01:49:37] J Murray: what

[01:49:37] Jon H: That's where the story led you.

[01:49:39] J Murray: could you imagine writing a whole movie in which every character the whole time? how'd you come to that idea as a writer?

[01:49:50] Josh B: That's another, reason why this movie is so good because it shouldn't work.

[01:49:55] J Murray: It shouldn't right. Like, And

[01:49:56] Josh B: work. And it does. And I do have to give George Lucas credit because like sure. Like he didn't write the screenplay. He's not great with dialogue. he wouldn't have, He wouldn't have, taken the time on the set, to work with the actors way that every Kirschner did, but the choice to not do what traditional SQL, he was doing something completely different.

[01:50:15] And the idea to not wrap things up in a nice

[01:50:19] little bow at the end, like this is everybody loses.

[01:50:21] J Murray: Yeah.

[01:50:22] Jon H: Yeah.

[01:50:23] J Murray: and nothing gets accomplished.

[01:50:24] Jon H: And yet it still ends on a hopeful note. Luke gets a new hand. they all look healthy. There's the

[01:50:30] Josh B: Yeah. like they've had a shower and a load of laundry. Yeah, And that last shot.

[01:50:34] Jon H: They're wearing like they're nice little hospital robes. There's like, there's beautiful Nebula behind them.

[01:50:38] John blings music is soaring. Lando is like, trust me, we're going to go find Han solo. Don't worry about it. It will get done. So you're like, okay, this is still good. Like, it's kind of a, going back to what I was saying before about it's okay to fail. the ending to the movie emphasizes

[01:50:52] that a little bit where it's like, they fucked up and it's like, what?

[01:50:54] They're still going.

[01:50:55] And that's the

[01:50:56] Josh B: No, totally.

[01:50:57] J Murray: a

[01:50:57] Jon H: you know?

[01:50:58] J Murray: art concept

[01:50:59] Jon H: It

[01:50:59] Josh B: Yeah.

[01:51:00] J Murray: sit down not only write this weird space opera, that's already razor thin margin of failing or being just like a doctor who episode no offense.

[01:51:10] Cause I know you're a big fan of that,

[01:51:11] Josh B: Not second. I get it again.

[01:51:13] J Murray: so you're sitting down, you're like, all right, I have to write this movie. But the idea I have is everybody fails. the main character gets his hand cut off and trust the kill himself. Like I like, how do you like of that?

[01:51:26] Like that's like crazy.

[01:51:27] Josh B: I think, people did not give George Lucas as much credit as he deserves for this movie. I think the reason why it's as good as it is, is because of, his collaborators. But this is him doing exactly what he wants to do his own way.

[01:51:44] Jon H: Taking a risk.

[01:51:45] Josh B: he's taken a big risk, He sets himself up perfectly for a third movie. And we will discuss next time Return of the Jedi.

[01:51:55] If you liked what you heard, please visit trachcompod.com otrashcompodod across all social media. Please rate and review the show on the podcast platform of your choice and may the forest.

[01:52:08] J Murray: Ah, but I put

[01:52:09] Jon H: Wow.

[01:52:11] Josh B: to thank my guests, John and Marie.

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