June 29, 2022

Obi-Wan's a Union Man: OBI-WAN KENOBI Part 6 (Finale)

Obi-Wan's a Union Man: OBI-WAN KENOBI Part 6 (Finale)

We talk union busting, mythology, and the most emotional moment in all of Star Wars.


JOSH, JON, MURRAY and MICKEY use the occasion of the OBI-WAN KENOBI finale to discuss film editing, the impact of new technology on labor, and the most emotional moment in all of Star Wars.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] JOSH: Welcome to Trash Compactor. I'm Josh and joining me today is Johnny

[00:00:06] JONNY: Hello.

[00:00:06] JOSH: Murray.

[00:00:07] MURRAY: Oh,

[00:00:08] JOSH: and Mickey. And today we're gonna be discussing part six of Obi-Wan Kenobi, the finale of either season one or the series, depending on whether you think it was gonna be a second season or not. So overall thoughts on the finale and I guess the show as a whole, John, let's start with you.

[00:00:25] JONNY: I, uh, loved it. I absolutely loved the finale. Um, I, I really loved the show. Um, uh, I liked that it felt different from all the other things we've seen in star wars, and I'm even talking about the films. Um, I thought it was pretty unique and that it seemed to be the most, um, character driven show. Or at least story out of all the star wars stories, like, uh, I feel like even more than the empire strikes back, even they were really concentrating on the emotional effects that these, um, events happened, happened to have on these characters.

[00:01:05] And then in the last episode, I really felt like they, they, uh, still held onto that sort of conceit, even in the spectacle of all the light saber fighting and stuff like that. They still put the camera right in you. And McGregor's face to show how hard everything is. Another repercussions were felt from it.

[00:01:21] So, yeah. Uh, big fan and, um, I'm glad it happened. It, I, I, it was something that I never thought we would ever see, and then it just kind of came outta the ether and it kind of gave me that feeling that I always thought the prequels should have been. So it kind of had a little bit of that in it as well. So I thought it was a good success.

[00:01:42] JOSH: Yeah, I agree on that point. Certainly it does feel like what the prequels, you know, what you imagined the prequels would feel like is kind of what this show sort of was. and it's interesting too, because you say it's the most character driven and really the whole excuse for this show is really about filling in this moment in Obi one's life.

[00:02:00] Like not in terms of events, it's really about getting inside this character and how he shifts from who he is at the end of episode three to the Alec Guinness version that we see in, in star wars, but, , Murray overall thoughts.

[00:02:14] Really?

[00:02:15] MURRAY: Overall thoughts on the show is that I loved it. Like, I, I think because of like Johnny was saying the character driven aspect of it and the struggles with like faith and all that stuff. I, I probably like this better than Mando, but I will. I Mando to me, I feel like is the better show. I don't know if it's just because there's more of a. Room to play rather than just like six episodes. But I, to me, I like this more, um, than, than Mando, but I did not love the finale. Um, I don't know. Yeah. I had different, um, I didn't hate it, but I think, you know, episode five was so great. Episode three was so great. And I don't know, I didn't think I had high expectations, but I was just, I'm sure we'll get into it, but I didn't, I actually didn't want another, um, Obi-Wan Vader confrontation.

[00:03:12] JOSH: Oh,

[00:03:12] MURRAY: I wanted the, I wanted the learner thing to come from. Literally the last thing, Obi-Wan. Like the memory they have in that moment is he says like, that's why you're the Padawan or something along those lines. Um, I, so I didn't like that. I felt like the last episode, it was almost like a checklist of like, all right.

[00:03:33] So new hope he calls him Darth. So let's, let's like close that loop because that makes it sound like a first name because it was, and then like, you know, make sure he says hello there and then make sure that we have the, the, the learner master moment. Like, it just felt like they were just like closing all, all these loops.

[00:03:51] And, um, so I didn't really like that. And then I'm sure it has something to be said. About me, but then a spoiler alert when qu gun shows up for like half a second. And he does that fucking like bullshit, like footprints in the sand poem. Like, no, I was here the whole time. You just couldn't see it. And then like Obi-Wan's like all super excited about it.

[00:04:09] I'd be like, screw you, man. Like I'm hanging on by a thread, almost dying. And you're just like, oh, I was here. You just weren't ready for me. You know, I've been talking to Yoda for 10 years, but no, by all means like, so I had

[00:04:21] JONNY: you bro.

[00:04:22] MURRAY: exactly, right. That, well, I'm the same way in empire strikes back when Vader crawl out to Luke and Luke's like, father it's like, since, when is he your father?

[00:04:30] He Dar Vader. Like, I know you just found out that he's your dad, but like, come on. Don't you're like bringing the famili, like, um, family familiarity, a little father, like bro, he's been your death like 10 minutes and you hated him up until

[00:04:44] JOSH: You know. Yeah, well, I get that, but that's only if you read Quan's line as he was withholding contact, not that, that Obi-Wan, hadn't you know, achieved the, uh, the inner peace or forgiven himself or whatever he had to do inside himself to be able to see and hear him.

[00:05:01] MURRAY: yeah. No, and I get that, but it's just like, it

[00:05:03] JONNY: one to see him until he was ready to see him. Like quieten.

[00:05:07] MURRAY: just seems like it's like the dude's hanging on by a thread and it's just like, uh, you know, I don't know, like,

[00:05:16] JOSH: No. I mean, I feel you, I

[00:05:17] JONNY: hear

[00:05:17] JOSH: mean, like there's something, so, but there's something interesting there, when Luke is calling out for Ben, when he's hanging from the weather vein or whatever on, on cloud city, you know, why doesn't he show up for him then?

[00:05:29] MURRAY: yeah, like what's why. because he's not even in empire, he's not even calling out for Obi-Wan when he is freezing to death. Right. He's not doing this journey of self discovery and forgiveness and everything like that. And Obi-Wan's like, Hey buddy, go talk to my dude. He'll square you up. And now in this, he's literally like, master, please help me.

[00:05:50] He's coming. He's stronger than me. I don't know what to do. And GaN she's like, well, maybe if you believed in me more,

[00:05:56] JOSH: No, but that's sort of what I'm saying. , because in that same moment that I'm talking about of Luke and empire, he's desperate, he's panicking and he's like freaking out and he's calling to Obi-Wan and he's not showing up. Like, I think that there's an argument to be made that like the state of mind that you're in, like has an effect, but I don't want to get,

[00:06:12] MURRAY: oh, we'll go back to that. I I'm gonna, yeah. I'll put a pin in that.

[00:06:15] JONNY: return.

[00:06:16] JOSH: Okay. Well, for potentially a contrarian opinion, uh, Mickey, what did you think of the show and this episode, or, or whatever you

[00:06:23] MICKEY: like just not to me, not good. In fact. And I actually think this episode is like the perfect distillation of everything I thought about the series not being good. Um, it had all its fault where, where I think five was amazed. I actually think five was a standout episode that I actually enjoyed. I was like, oh, okay, they're gonna end. The first four to me were just like, this is just not bad star wars. I, I, I had no issue with this as a star wars fan, but to me it was just bad TV, um, up until five and on five was like, okay, all right, they're hitting their stride. They're doing something. And then, and then they just fell apart again, I think in six here.

[00:06:59] Um, just, I think they're doing good character work. They're doing good stuff. I, I, I think, um, I, McGregor's doing the greatest acting of his, of his life and that's, and they're failing at everything else just to get certain, like, you know, like Murray's saying certain beats in to, to let, to let, um, IR McGregor do this great act in what he's doing, but they're just, they're kind of skimping, I think, on actually making anything coherent.

[00:07:25] Um, and anything actually makes sense. And it just seems like they don't care if, um, physics matter, um, or any like basically when they like in the episode three, when they did the tunnel stuff, I was like, this is insane. This is absolutely insane. They just do not care. Um, and that, and that's been my ride throughout this entire show.

[00:07:42] I

[00:07:42] JOSH: Wait, what, what, , tunnel stuff you talking?

[00:07:44] MURRAY: That they didn't pass each other in the tunnels.

[00:07:46] MICKEY: that three different people just did not like it just, they like, and maybe there's a reason. And that thing is they could have easily explained a reason, but they just didn't because I just feel, again, that there was somewhere in create in the creator somewhere along the line between director writers, you know, the producer, something they just did not care about.

[00:08:04] I think trying to make an actual TV show coherent, they were just making content.

[00:08:09] JONNY: It's funny, cuz I always, I just, I, I kind of put the benefit of a doubt out there that there was more than one entrance to the tunnel. So it wasn't just like one entrance, one exit, as much as it could have been like five entrances and five exits, like, so like with stuff like that, I'm always

[00:08:23] MURRAY: Well, I, yeah, but I think that's kind of what Mickey's saying. Yeah, but it's like, but the, the kind of onus is on the viewer to piece together in a visual medium, something that they're not showing you or even telling you.

[00:08:35] JONNY: But I mean, have they ever

[00:08:36] MURRAY: cuz that was, I brought that up too, like at, during the episode.

[00:08:41] JONNY: but like, I feel

[00:08:41] JOSH: yeah, but

[00:08:42] JONNY: never really explain how anything works in any of the movies. They just are there like the magnetic fields in the FNA. How the, how cloud city works. And like, we

[00:08:54] MURRAY: but that's a much bigger scale than making it seem like there's one, just one tunnel and three different people or four different people are in it and nobody crosses paths.

[00:09:05] JOSH: Well, so that's an interesting thing because like my, my assumption for the tunnel thing was that, like with any underground network of tunnels where you're smuggling things my sense from it was that it was kind of like a maze down there. so,

[00:09:19] JONNY: what I got too.

[00:09:20] MURRAY: I was taking it like, the great escape, like Tom Dick and Harry three different tunnels, like not

[00:09:25] JONNY: I, I was thinking like

[00:09:26] the catacombs under Paris or something like that,

[00:09:28] JOSH: Yeah. So, so well, because, it was like a mining settlement, right.

[00:09:32] the dual between, Vader and obiwan like happened in like a mine, uh, uh, sort of a place. So, so, so I thought that the reason why that was, , the way they were smuggling out Jedi and stuff was because they had this whole like, network of abandoned.

[00:09:49] MURRAY: a very, very

[00:09:50] good point.

[00:09:51] MICKEY: then to me, it's like, that explains why they didn't cross paths, but then like, why would they have put Leia on the longer path, if, and how could re Reva actually find the shorter path that the cutter off.

[00:10:01] MURRAY: Oh, wow. Now we're getting into

[00:10:03] JOSH: no, but so, so the point is though, I do think there's something in what you're saying, Mickey though. I happen to not agree with you on this particular point, because I think it's a case of, you know, like I'm always complaining in shows and movies when they feel the need to explain everything you know, there are certain lines or certain moments and things where it's like, oh, like the only reason that, that, is there is, to cut off a critique at the past.

[00:10:26] Right. So,

[00:10:28] what I am sympathetic to is this idea of like, why does this exist and why does this exist in this form? The reason why this exists is because this huge corporations spent, , billions of dollars on this, , property and they need new content.

[00:10:43] I mean, that's why it exists.

[00:10:44] MURRAY: Like I

[00:10:44] JOSH: The, the, the other interesting thing is that, I was reading in an interview with , the original writer of the movie version of this. he basically said that in his iteration, there were actually three movies. It was a trilogy of, movies and what this first season was, was what happened in his script for the first movie.

[00:11:04] but instead of, two hours, they made it in, to a six hour, uh, TV series, because solo didn't make enough money. And they pivoted to streaming. So, so, you know, when you say Mickey, this is, bad TV in your estimation, I'm not unsympathetic to what you're saying. because literally why this exists in the form that this exists has nothing to do with , the inspiration to tell a particular story and, finding the medium and the format that most suits that story.

[00:11:36] It's like, all of these, decisions are completely, , driven, by sort of, financial, corporate strategy considerations, which like on one level, yeah, like that sort of drives me nuts. And like, I think. Whether or not for me, at least like you can put that out of your head and sort of enjoy it for what it is, I mean, that's sort of where I land on that.

[00:11:54] MICKEY: that's, that's how I land on. I think I, with, you know, the Mandalorian and Boba Fett, it's like, yeah, this, this wasn't, you know, great prestige TV, any sense, but it was pulp enough and fun enough for me to enjoy. And it didn't make, to me, it just like, and like, it doesn't make like the fight, like basically Reva getting to Tatooine fast enough to have her show down the same time will be once having his show down to.

[00:12:15] MURRAY: then he

[00:12:15] MICKEY: get back at that to me, fast enough. And it's like, they didn't

[00:12:18] MURRAY: it's like game of Thrones

[00:12:19] MICKEY: Like it could've spread those out.

[00:12:20] MURRAY: Whole yeah.

[00:12:20] JONNY: mm-hmm

[00:12:21] MICKEY: And I just really, I'm actually really curious, like, what's going on behind the scenes with the writers, with the producers, who's making these decisions to be like, this is the, this is like the pacing and the editing.

[00:12:29] We want that just to me, which wasn't

[00:12:30] MURRAY: Well, I

[00:12:32] JONNY: yeah,

[00:12:32] MURRAY: I would think

[00:12:33] JONNY: sympathetic to that idea too, that they fast, traveled a little bit too much in the last episode, but at the same time, those are things where I was just like, I could easily just brush that to the side, uh, for the sake of the story and for the sake of, uh, the, how engaged I was to the conflict.

[00:12:49] MURRAY: Yeah. I think with like, where I'll like agree and disagree with Mickey is I feel like they do like cut corners. And, but I wouldn't say that they didn't care. I wanna say that all the decisions they made were like, not like, I don't care, just do it. I think it was more like, um, I don't know how to, how to explain it, but they just kind of like put their heads together and be like, all right, this is the best way to, to do this.

[00:13:17] Cuz we can't show all of this. So there is a level of not caring, but not in the sense of like, I don't care. Just fucking do whatever you want. Like, it was more like a educated, not educated, but like thought out like edits and UN. Then when they kind of ran into a wall there's like, is this wall worth taking down?

[00:13:33] Or just like. Like bypass it and just like, let them fill in the gaps or I don't know. I'm not explaining it well, but,

[00:13:41] JOSH: You

[00:13:41] JONNY: I know what you're talking

[00:13:42] JOSH: thing with. My other thing with the fast travel was like, once again, I guess I wasn't reading the intercuting literally like these things are literally happening at the same time. Like the same way in the empire strikes back. Like we were talking about on the Empire episode, like there's a way to read it.

[00:13:58] , when you're intercutting between, what's going on on the Falcon and what's happening, with Yoda and Luke on Dagobah, like the way it's presented, the way that it's intercut, you're left with the impression that these things are happening at the same time

[00:14:09] though. That's not necessarily what, the internal logic of the universe is.

[00:14:14] Like, it doesn't really matter. Like you could read it that way, but I think that's , for the sake of simplification, the only thing I will say is that I don't know that they needed to be intercut.

[00:14:23] JONNY: That's the thing. And I was

[00:14:25] MICKEY: That's exactly that that's exactly where I'm. Yeah.

[00:14:27] JONNY: you brought up the empire strikes back too, which is like possibly, possibly my favorite movie of all time. So I will defend it to the

[00:14:35] MURRAY: Yeah.

[00:14:35] JONNY: uh, I also do think that I also do think that, that that is almost like a fault of the movie. A flaw of the movie though, is that there's no like, cuz they intercut everything at the same time because of the language of editing and filmmaking and cinema, we over the course of decades have been taught to, uh, we, we are literate in a sense to, to, to interpret that as happening at the same time,

[00:15:02] MURRAY: Yeah. Unless something tells you different like music cues

[00:15:06] JONNY: and other movies use exactly other movies do that to throw to almost as like a shock where they like intercut things and you're like, oh my God, they're in the same room.

[00:15:16] And then. All of a sudden, they there's a reveal that they're not in the same

[00:15:19] MURRAY: of the lambs, baby. Yeah.

[00:15:21] JONNY: or, or how about the, the, I was just gonna say that the cinema classic speed, you know, and it's like the same sort of thing. So, uh, so it could be considered like a flaw and, uh, but you know, you're right, Josh.

[00:15:35] Like, it doesn't necessarily mean that, but I think we've been taught to digest, film that way. So obviously, like, I felt it, like, I was like, oh wow, this is happen at the same time. And then I think Obi-Wan even stops. And he goes like Luke and he runs into his jet and it's like, well, that basically means it's happening right now.

[00:15:54] You know, unless he's having a forced vision. So like, so, you know,

[00:15:59] JOSH: so, but there's like the, dramatic construct though,

[00:16:03] JONNY: I agree.

[00:16:04] JOSH: for example, like in the godfather,

[00:16:06] MURRAY: Never heard of

[00:16:06] it.

[00:16:08] JOSH: yeah. shame on me for invoking such an obscure obscure film to make a point.

[00:16:12] JONNY: It's it's kind of like fast and furious, but no cars.

[00:16:17] MURRAY: oh, it is all family. Yeah. Yep.

[00:16:19] JONNY: Yeah.

[00:16:20] JOSH: but like , the very famous end sequence with, , the baptism and the assassinations happening all simultaneously, like it works as a dramatic construct. I don't think you are meant to necessarily literally think that, This guy is shot and then the next guy is shot and then the next guy is shot. they all may be happening simultaneously. They all may be happening, within the same five minutes or within the same. 60 minutes, but there's a certain, I keep using this term dramatic construct where it's creating the impression of something, , to communicate an idea.

[00:16:54] Now that said, I don't know what the idea in this instance was except for fact like a lot of shit is going

[00:17:04] MURRAY: Yeah, but like, but why? Mm.

[00:17:06] MICKEY: and that, and

[00:17:06] JONNY: even the godfather, like the godfather it's, it's not. Geographic centric. So it doesn't matter if it's happening in Nevada or in Manhattan or at three

[00:17:16] MURRAY: doesn't have to get to every, every thing like,

[00:17:20] JONNY: But so in, in this episode, uh, it does matter where they are. So, so that's, I think that that's the main difference as to why one doesn't matter when you're watching it and one does, but at the same time, like I don't

[00:17:33] MURRAY: Why does she go there though? That's my, my question. What, what

[00:17:37] MICKEY: To get revenge, cuz she hates Anakin so much. She wants Anakin to

[00:17:41] MURRAY: but Annigan does,

[00:17:42] MICKEY: can't beat herder. And so the only thing she knows she can do to hurt Anakin is to

[00:17:46] MURRAY: does she know? How does

[00:17:48] JONNY: think she, I don't think she knows it's that's exactly it. Actually, I, I kind of disagree with this. I, I don't necessarily think she's going there to, uh, I don't think she's going there to hurt Ann and I think she's going there to hurt Obi-Wan because in the message, it doesn't say, uh, bail, organic doesn't.

[00:18:07] Luke. He just says the children and he doesn't even say Anakin's children. So, and that, and she

[00:18:13] MURRAY: nobody would know.

[00:18:15] JONNY: can Nobi. Exactly. So I agree with you Murray

[00:18:19] MURRAY: pad may would know

[00:18:20] JONNY: and bail, and exactly. And

[00:18:22] MURRAY: yeah,

[00:18:23] JONNY: And I agree with you Murray. I think, I think she went there to hurt Obi-Wan as one final act of revenge against him to kill a kid.

[00:18:30] MURRAY: what was

[00:18:31] JONNY: she realizes she couldn't do it.

[00:18:33] MURRAY: this

[00:18:34] JONNY: I think it was just like, I, I think it was just one of those things where it's like, uh, he wasn't there to help her. And she wanted, I think she wanted him to feel like Darth Vader wanted to Obi-Wan to feel the pain that he went through. So he is like, I'm gonna set you on fire.

[00:18:50] I'm gonna torture you. And I think with, with her, she's like, I want the blood of children on your hands

[00:18:57] MURRAY: I guess, I guess.

[00:18:58] JONNY: to, I want you to, to, to, to live the sin that you've committed, that you thinks that he committed upon her.

[00:19:05] MURRAY: Okay.

[00:19:06] JONNY: think she's actually trying to get revenge. Nobody won. Not, not

[00:19:08] MURRAY: Okay. I guess I don't, that was just muddy to me because it seemed very much like her role in it was done in episode five where she like her and Obi-Wan have like a heart to heart and then. Vader comes clean that like, yeah, no, I've known this whole time. You idiot, like and then, um, and then, so it's like, what?

[00:19:31] So I just didn't understand, like, to me that was one of the things, like, it seemed like closing the loop, like, oh fuck, we gotta bring Luke back into this. All right. Let's have her go after. And I just don't know if people stopped and were like, but why? Like, it felt very much like Jurassic park, like you're too busy.

[00:19:48] Wondering if you could, you never thought if you should. And so,

[00:19:52] JOSH: Well, maybe there's something I'm missing then. because I've read a bunch of people online or very mad at the fact that, Reva's alive and she knows that, Luke exists and that's like a problem for cannon or something like, you know, no one should

[00:20:04] MURRAY: but nobody knows who he is.

[00:20:07] JOSH: Well, so, but that's

[00:20:08] JONNY: know who Luke is.

[00:20:09] JOSH: So, maybe they're

[00:20:10] MURRAY: Because she didn't kidnap Leia because she like, that was Dar Vader's daughter. She kidnapped Leia to draw out Jedi because of how they, they leave a trail by having to do the right thing. So she took a gamble that they were gonna invoke the Jedi specifically. Obiwan probably knowing that he was one of the last ones left, , to do

[00:20:32] JOSH: No. Well, she knew that OB won and, , bail organic were

[00:20:36] MURRAY: Yeah. And so,

[00:20:37] JONNY: So if you kid bail's daughter, it had nothing to do with Ankin

[00:20:40] MURRAY: I don't

[00:20:41] JONNY: knows that Luke and Leia are Anakin's

[00:20:43] MURRAY: yeah. And I think that's a thing of the fans.

[00:20:45] JONNY: except for their

[00:20:46] MURRAY: I think that's the thing of the fans. Getting so wanting to be outraged so quickly that they don't stop and think about it. So they're like, oh, this doesn't make any sense. It's like, well, just because you are misunderstanding, it doesn't mean that it doesn't make any sense.

[00:21:00] Like they're filling in

[00:21:01] JONNY: even if you go

[00:21:02] MURRAY: there. Yeah.

[00:21:03] JOSH: right.

[00:21:04] JONNY: yes. Cuz if you go back and watch the tape of the hologram footage, like it's all staticy and he's like, he's like the children or like, uh, go back, uh, like. Like he, like, what go back. If you can't defend Leia ecstatic, like something like, I'm going to tattooing to see Owen, we have to protect the child.

[00:21:24] And like, that's all she knows. It's not like Luke

[00:21:26] JOSH: Yeah, the other

[00:21:27] JONNY: and Skywalker, you know,

[00:21:29] JOSH: the other thing also is that you could read it as Reva is kind of, is kind of down for the count now. And this is a way to force another confrontation where OB won will have to engage her,

[00:21:41] MURRAY: I guess I just don't know what her, maybe she doesn't either. Maybe I'm that's where I'm misunderstanding something. but it just seemed like, like she horned in like, all right, we need them to have a confrontation.

[00:21:52] They need them to have a confrontation. And then like, I don't know. I was, I was telling Johnny, I was almost expecting some sort of like Jurassic park again with the same reference, like that the Raiders were going to end up saving Luke, not like to save him, but just because of like a trespasser and yeah.

[00:22:12] Or, or something like, or Luke was gonna lead her into that kind of dangerous territory. Um, yeah, that's what I thought was gonna

[00:22:22] JONNY: yeah, it would've been kind of funny if she got like pot shotted from like a, a Tuscan Raider rifle at some point,

[00:22:27] MURRAY: well, it just, it just didn't seem weird. And then again, like, I know you were saying in, uh, episode four, how it looked like, or part four, I should say. So it's not confusing in part four that it looked like she did not find any joy in hurting Leia. Right. But then it just seemed weird, like, cuz you're seeing all these other frozen and or dead kids that I guess there's no proof that she's the one that did it, but for her to be all of a sudden like, no, I can't kill this specific child.

[00:22:58] And that like, I don't, I don't really know cuz what Obon said to her didn't make enough of an impact for her not to be like, yo, I'm gonna fuck this kid up so that obiwan comes there. Like, and so when she's there, I don't know. It just seemed forced.

[00:23:13] JONNY: but to your point, I think that's actually a revelation about her character and that we can assume that she didn't ever personally kill another kid. You know, like, mean, those people that that's a long line of Jedi in that hallway. I don't think Reva personally

[00:23:29] MURRAY: Yeah. Cuz she's working her

[00:23:30] JONNY: of them. If any of

[00:23:31] MURRAY: She's working her way up,

[00:23:33] JONNY: working her way up.

[00:23:34] She's bottom of the totem pole. So like, those people are probably caught by Vader personally

[00:23:38] MURRAY: the inquisitor? Yeah.

[00:23:39] JONNY: then, or the inquisitor and all that stuff. So

[00:23:42] she's kind of like, she's the rookie on a job.

[00:23:45] JOSH: Let's talk about, the Obi-Wan Vader confrontation in this episode. what did we think of this? Let's.

[00:23:51] MURRAY: I didn't love, uh, the fight was great. Don't get me wrong. And this is contrary to other fans out there. This is the type of light saber fighting that I like. I can't stand Baton twirling. They're like taking time where they could strike each other, but to just twirl and do like color guard or whatever, like, um, uh, high stepping type stuff, like, um, where they're just twirling it around their finger.

[00:24:18] So I like this heavy hitting like aggressive thing. So I like that. But, um, I don't the there's some like flashbacks, right. That he sees, which I thought was a little jarring, cuz I don't know how much we get that in star wars. So something like that jumps out to me more than anything else to have, like flashbacks, cuz you have how many movies and shows and you don't really have them.

[00:24:40] I think that maybe, um, if something like she gave, she gave Obi-Wan, the, her Lola, right? Like, so maybe if like Lola like flew out of his pocket, that would like fill in the gaps that he's thinking of her. And that's how he's getting her, his strength. But overall I didn't want the fight. Um, and then I also think that it actually before and four in, in part five, it sets up a new hope.

[00:25:06] Great. And then in this and when basically Obon turns into Dr. Manhattan for like, like five minutes and then all of a sudden you go to his, his powers now get back to like. like, Ooh, block, block, block, you know, like in the, the new hope fight. And I get understand choreography and the age of Al Inness, I understand don't get me wrong.

[00:25:28] I understand all of that, but that's just why it was like, it's like, this is gonna make it more jarring where so much of this, this season series, I feel like helped strengthen some of that stuff. And then I don't know this, that fight scene. I just like, ah, and then like, like Johnny, I don't wanna take this point away from Johnny, so I'll let him expand on it, but like, why do you leave this guy on like one HP?

[00:25:49] Like, why aren't you just like, finish? Like, what are you doing like this, this is the second time you didn't learn from the first time. This is the second time you're just gonna like leave him or just assume that he's gonna die or something. I don't know. But, so I didn't, I love the fight, but not the

[00:26:06] JONNY: Be it's so funny because, uh, I absolutely loved the fight. And I agree with you about the choreography. I think this is one of the best light sleeper fights they've ever had it like bared none. Um, and I loved every moment. But I also kind of agree that like, maybe they never should have fought at all because this was sort of like the end all be all fight that would finish

[00:26:33] MURRAY: mm-hmm

[00:26:34] JONNY: And then when, when he's like, I absolve you of all guilt, like, you know, uh, you didn't kill Ankin I killed

[00:26:42] MURRAY: Closing the loop.

[00:26:43] JONNY: and then he's like, and he's like, then my friend is truly dead and you're just Darth Vader. And then he walks away from him, like he said, when he was on one HP. And I was just like, I was like the way you've written everything.

[00:26:52] The, the, the passion you showed in this fight, the stakes that are out top. The fact that Obi-Wan's one of Obi-Wan's biggest mistakes of his life was letting Anan live, you know, because so many people have died because of Ankin. I was like, there's just, they wrote themselves into a corner, kind of like Neo flying away at the end of the matrix.

[00:27:13] Whereas this one of the scenes where it's like, you've written yourself into a corner where it's like, there really is no. Good excuse for Obi-Wan to let him live. Because even as like an empathetic, good person, like that's like walking away from Hitler and being like, well, he's learned his lesson. It's like, it is like, at this point, it's like, it's like, dude, just chop off his head, give him a mercy, kill like a samurai and then deal with your guilt afterwards.

[00:27:42] But like I did, I, I, as much as I love that scene and love that episode, I was like, they're hindered by the fact that the star wars movies exist. And if this, if the star wars movies did not exist and any other story, he would've executed him on the spot.

[00:27:58] JOSH: He would've

[00:28:00] JONNY: He would've

[00:28:00] MICKEY: there is one reason why not. There is one reason why not to kill Vader and they, I think they make a mistake by not making O Obi-Wan O Obon should. If they say Obon understands this, cuz Vader is the chosen one, Vader does kill the fifth Lord. Um, Luke doesn't Vader needs to live to be the one that brings down to the horse by killing VA.

[00:28:18] Um, and, and that's the reason. And, and, and the thing is like, if they set up the stakes that we somehow knew, maybe obiwan talks to KGON first or something, and he understands that like something teaches O Obi-Wan that he's like, no, I gotta make sure Vader lives, Vader kills princes balance.

[00:28:33] MURRAY: Wow. Yeah,

[00:28:34] MICKEY: if Vader dies, maybe Luke turns dark side by

[00:28:38] MURRAY: And then it solves my issue with qu gone being fucking nowhere, and then showing up, like, it's your fault that I didn't show up. But, um, so, but the thing, so that's a great idea, but in the thing in writing themselves into the corner, Johnny, I totally agree with you, except for they wrote themselves into that corner.

[00:28:56] Like they, they didn't need to write the scene at all,

[00:28:59] JOSH: so, but

[00:29:00] JONNY: there's

[00:29:00] some great revelations for character

[00:29:02] MURRAY: but you could put that somewhere

[00:29:03] JOSH: Yes. Well, just addressing that, one point really quickly is that, so I have to be honest. the first time I watched it, I didn't, bump on that. It, wasn't until, friend of the show, James, he asked me a couple days later, so why do you think OB won left Vader alive?

[00:29:16] And I was like,

[00:29:17] huh?

[00:29:18] MURRAY: Yeah.

[00:29:19] JONNY: idea.

[00:29:19] he's like, I'm gonna do the same thing I did 10 years ago. Bye bye. And it's like, no,

[00:29:23] literally the same thing.

[00:29:24] JOSH: the weird thing about it is, is that it's a simple fix, like, look, I mean, I like what you were saying, Mickey, but you could even leave, the way that it is and like contrive some reason why, he has to, book it out of there, in order, to survive, like, you know,

[00:29:38] JONNY: what if he had,

[00:29:39] I was gonna say, what if he had Vader on the ropes and then he gets to telepathic, uh, disturbance that Luke is in trouble while, and Vader's too far away from him. And he's like, he has to make a decision, kill Vader or go help Luke. And he goes and leaves out to help Luke, you know,

[00:29:52] JOSH: Yeah. I . Mean, exactly. Like there are a million reasons that you could come up with at a pretty straightforward about, why Obi-Wan would have to leave and not, , finish Vader off. that said, though, I think for me, the emotion, the satisfaction of the character moment, for me overrides the logic, fudging there, like even to the point where, I was so, caught up in it, the first watch that that thought didn't even occur to me.

[00:30:15] like I think the exchange Between Obi one and Vader slash akin with like, you know, half of his, mask missing, I think was, I think it might be the most genuinely emotional moment in all of

[00:30:29] MURRAY: No, it was great. That's yeah,

[00:30:31] JONNY: was talking about. I even more than the empire strikes back, this, this show did more with character than

[00:30:36] MURRAY: there, you don't have to sacrifice that moment. You can have, if you just had switched that with a, a quick scene with qu gone in which he says, like, I know what you're about to do, but like, I still believe he's a chosen one. Like you do, you cannot kill him. Like there's still hope or something like that.

[00:30:54] And that kind of, and then he'll be torn with Quran saying, no there's hope like I'm trust me. I'm like from beyond there's hope. And then he's seeing Vader be like, no, Anakin's dead. Like I am Vader. Like this is, uh, nothing. And, and you could even had something, we know the grand grand grand inquisitor gets stabbed, but survived.

[00:31:16] So you could have even had maybe that scene and then. like, kind of like what a con like mixing with what Johnny said, like maybe he like is stabbing, like Vader to like kill him and then gets like, like, does he finish the job or does he go save Luke? And then kind of like, as like, then maybe he assumes that he's might die from his wounds or something, or maybe that he did kill him, you know, like something along those lines.

[00:31:42] JOSH: don't know, man, like I don't think again, after the first time he made that mistake, he assumed oh, well he's on

[00:31:47] MURRAY: but he did the same thing,

[00:31:48] JOSH: I mean, in two

[00:31:48] JONNY: course he's dead.

[00:31:49] MURRAY: but he just lets him live.

[00:31:51] JOSH: but like if his intention was to kill him, once and for all, I don't think he would make that mistake again.

[00:31:57] It's like,

[00:31:57] MURRAY: only way around it is Mickey's idea.

[00:31:59] MICKEY: Or the other, just to take it back, like a scene that we kind of skipped, but it, I also think was maybe a little, a weird choice is that like, he takes away the entire star story instead of like, I can take a shuttle and go finish O won. I'm gonna take like the entire star story and let the rebel get away.

[00:32:14] It's I'm, I'm not that upset about it. Cuz certain sense

[00:32:15] MURRAY: Well that's yeah. Yep.

[00:32:17] MICKEY: these. Like I, that, that

[00:32:18] MURRAY: He's single

[00:32:18] MICKEY: wise, but also the same time that that could have been the thing that there's literally 18 at ATS coming down on, um, you know, they have this big fight and then there's a thousand storm troopers

[00:32:28] MURRAY: And he's got a dip

[00:32:29] JONNY: could have just jumped into his Thai fighter and chased and his own fighter. If

[00:32:33] MURRAY: or, but if

[00:32:34] MICKEY: Yeah. Because I get, I get taken the whole, I get the character of Dar reader saying I don't give a shit about these rebels. Let's go get, but like, why not

[00:32:41] MURRAY: yeah. And

[00:32:41] MICKEY: you know, at least have them on backup,

[00:32:43] MURRAY: them, stops him from killing Vader. Is that like all hell is raining down, like with all these troopers and everything like that. So he's got a dip like, so you could still have that moment and then have him dip before he could do

[00:32:56] the finishing blow.

[00:32:57] JONNY: to talk about some, uh, there's a bit of a co comparison, I think you can make with, uh, this episode or this show and like the last Jedi or like the things they do.

[00:33:07] Right. They do really well. And then I feel like there's things on the side that they kind of push under the rug for the convenience of making the other stuff. Good. So like this Vader fight was like to, to Murray's, uh, idea. They probably should never have fought again. And I agree that being said, though, what worked perfectly was when he cut his mask into two and they had the conversation and talking to the filmmaking the way they mixed the sound

[00:33:36] MURRAY: yeah. Yep. That was

[00:33:36] JONNY: James Earl joins voice.

[00:33:37] And it was kind of going in and

[00:33:39] MURRAY: that the

[00:33:39] JONNY: and the look on Hayden Christiansen's face

[00:33:42] JOSH: no dude, Hayden Christen. He fucking,

[00:33:45] I mean,

[00:33:45] JONNY: can see him like smiling. when he's

[00:33:48] JOSH: No,

[00:33:48] JONNY: when he is talking to one and he is like, I killed an and he's like, he's like, he's like, what do you think of that motherfucker? You know? Like, he's so like not, not Ankin in that moment.

[00:33:57] It's so good.

[00:33:58] JOSH: That was chilling. That was absolutely chilling. Like I was like,

[00:34:03] JONNY: Like he's enjoying this, even though he's almost dead, you

[00:34:07] MICKEY: And really is proof that like George Lucas is bad

[00:34:10] MURRAY: No, that's why I was so glad.

[00:34:11] MICKEY: it was never, I don't either. He learned a lot in the last 20 years or it just was like,

[00:34:15] MURRAY: yeah, no, I think that this was

[00:34:17] JONNY: This is his redemption

[00:34:18] MURRAY: felt so good that they finally

[00:34:20] got their day. Like I was like, all right. You know what guys fucking go

[00:34:23] JONNY: Yeah. And you McGregor like that is real, that re you McGregor is like really fucking crying. Like in that scene, you can see

[00:34:31] it. like that's not, that's not faking it, man. Like

[00:34:33] he's feeling

[00:34:34] it.

[00:34:34] JOSH: all. Not at all like that, moment where he's like, I'm sorry. Ankin for all of it. I was

[00:34:41] like that is the most emotional, like genuine heartfelt,

[00:34:45] MURRAY: and like all of star wars. Yeah.

[00:34:47] JOSH: yeah. Yes, yes. It really is.

[00:34:50] MURRAY: The, the, I hate you in the,

[00:34:52] in the, the avenge of the Sy was that was like pretty genuine emotion. Like, like that was like hate filled, like, but

[00:35:01] yeah. exactly. It's not like there's no subtlety. There's no,

[00:35:04] JONNY: Yeah.

[00:35:06] Sledgehammer to the wall.

[00:35:07] JOSH: , but the other thing about that moment is that , while I agree, the, I hate you is like really, depicted very, very well. the movie doesn't really bring you

[00:35:16] MURRAY: no. It's

[00:35:17] JOSH: So it's like that moment in isolation is like, whoa, shit, like that's intense.

[00:35:20] but imagine if you really were on that character's side and imagine if you were really invested in the relationship of Ankin and Obi one, and then saw that,

[00:35:31] That should be heartbreaking. One thing that I will say though, that, I just thought about the other day, uh, kind of outta nowhere and I found it very grotesque, and I think this was obviously intended.

[00:35:42] So you watch that scene, that scene of Ankin through the Vader mask and he said, you didn't kill Anique Skywalker. I did. And like how chilling it is. And you realize that like three movies earlier, he's like a nine year old who says, mom, you say the biggest problem in this universe is that nobody helps each other. And it's just that is fucking horrifying. there's a way that the naivete and ham handedness of these movies really create this like grotesque juxtaposition where that, little char Rubic nine year old is the same character, I don't know, like that occurred to me the other day. And I'm like, shit, like that's really, you know,

[00:36:23] JONNY: but yeah.

[00:36:25] MURRAY: in love with

[00:36:25] his technology over the.

[00:36:28] JOSH: Yeah. Well, so something else. So something else, um, that I think this show really did for me and, your opinion on whether or not this is a good thing or a bad thing is, separate, but I really see Hayden Christiansen Ankin under the mask more like when I see Vader, I can more easily imagine Hayden Christiansen under that mask now. Like my problem, with the way the, an invader storyline is handled and. these movies is you never really get the sense of continuity of this one character, like in, the prequels he's played, , by two different actors. And then he's played by three or four different other actors in the originals. And it's just like, you know these. Yeah. Right.

[00:37:13] So,

[00:37:14] The, an invader, fall redemption arc is sort of an intellectual idea. It's not, it's not really one that you see on the screen and you go along with, it's like, oh, okay. Like this is that same guy. Got it. but the movies don't really get you there.

[00:37:29] JONNY: Yeah. And I think that's like, when people say, uh, why does this show exist? And all these things, I think that's why this show exists because it, it gives us the, the psychological arc, uh, that bridges the gaps between the prequels and the original trilogy. Because to go from you McGregor and venture the STH to Alec Guinness and the new hope, it's like, they're too totally, they're not totally different, but they're very different.

[00:37:56] And, uh, and their approach. And so this show kind of puts you on that path with that. And then when you think about. did we really feel the emotional toll? I'm not talking about little kids that saw the prequels, but I'm talking about grown as adults of the original trilogy. Did we really feel the emotional toll of Ankin and Obi-Wans falling out in the prequels?

[00:38:16] Not really, but the show we really feel it. And then like you were saying, Josh, like having hay and Christensen in the suit as Darth Vader for the show, even in that last fight, you can tell he's he's he still has Ankin aggression that an and bravado is James Earl Jones's voice coming out. But even the way that he like grunts more and he like, he actually like moves, this is the fastest I've ever seen, Darth Vader move.

[00:38:44] Um, and it cuz

[00:38:45] MURRAY: well, it would make sense. Right. As he gets

[00:38:47] JONNY: you know, but like remember

[00:38:49] MURRAY: he doesn't need like the speed, right?

[00:38:52] JONNY: sure. Or like, I think it's also his emotional state of mind. Like in the episode four or part four when they're in the underwater thing. And he goes to choke and kill re Reva. He's like, he's not strolling down the hallway. He's like, he's like, borderline, like he's about to go into like a run. He's like, he's like the fastest he can walk and the way that he goes after, uh, after Obi-Wan, uh, in this last fight with that same aggression where he's like, did you come here to destroy me?

[00:39:21] And OB and Obi-Wan says, I, I will do what I must. And he's like, then you all die. And, and then I just watched it earlier today and he's just like, and he just like dives right. Outta Obi-Wan and starts pounding on him. And it's like, all of that is a long way of saying that, like that helps bring Ankin forward more through the mask.

[00:39:39] And so what you were saying, Marie though, I do think since there is another 10 years to go, or so that Vader will become more accepting of who he is and he has less of that rage and he is become

[00:39:53] MURRAY: yeah, cuz we never see, uh, obiwan do anything near what he does in that fight either before or after. Like, um, but speaking of the mask, yeah.

[00:40:03] JONNY: but I think that's also that sort of like Zen sort of Yoda thing where like Yoda doesn't need to fight by the empire strikes back. And I feel like Obi-Wan at that point is like, he kind of doesn't really need to fight either. You kinda get the idea that Obi-Wan's in control

[00:40:17] MURRAY: Yeah. In, in a new hope. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so is, is this the mask that, uh, Kylo Ren gets or is it supposed to be right because then it split?

[00:40:30] JONNY: he must have replaced it before a new hope so.

[00:40:32] JOSH: I feel like Vader must have

[00:40:34] a ton of these spare masks lying around, he goes back into his shuttle. He, he pops up in the glove box and he just, he, he picks one up off the, off the, uh, the stack.

[00:40:43] Right. Um,

[00:40:44] MURRAY: cover all my boldness. Yeah.

[00:40:46] JONNY: you, you kind of just reminded me of something. Um, they there's moments in the show where Obi-Wan had storm troopers multiple times, like at least twice to get them down. And I'm like, I think this show is going out of the way to show that storm trooper armor and armor and store actually does something like, and if you think about like, um, we don't know what the fucking.

[00:41:09] MURRAY: Mm--hmm

[00:41:09] JONNY: is of a laser bolt or the, or the

[00:41:11] MURRAY: than the speed of light. We know that

[00:41:13] JONNY: I don't know. But like, but you know that when they get hit with a laser bolt, they just fucking fall down and they're out, but it makes me rethink of everything. Like maybe not all those storm troopers that got shot were dead.

[00:41:24] Maybe they're just down. And cuz if one takes two wax at a storm trooper to take them down. And then when he is fighting Vader, he stabs him like three times in the chest

[00:41:35] MURRAY: Yeah, well, I thought it was the hilt, right.

[00:41:38] JONNY: was awesome. And, and you hear his, he does both. He, he hits him with the hill and then he stabs him like once or twice with the saber.

[00:41:45] And he, you hear his breathing get all fucked up and wheezy and then he slashes he,

[00:41:52] JOSH: No. Yeah,

[00:41:52] JONNY: then he slashes his, he slashes his back and then he slashes his face. And none of that goes through his armor, kind of like in the empire shark's back when Luke hits Vader in the shoulder, it just hits him in the shoulder pad.

[00:42:04] And he feels it, but it doesn't go through, I mean, you know, practicality of expects of effects and stuff, but either way, it's a moot point, but I just feel like this show coming made me rethink of everything. Like maybe not all the storm troopers are dead. Maybe they're just like, down for like injury or something like that.

[00:42:20] Yeah,

[00:42:20] MURRAY: trooper armor too, like, uh, Like when they were getting stabbed. And so I feel like it like breaks and CR like, it's not just like, there for show like it actually.

[00:42:30] JOSH: You know, what was cool about the, um, about Obi-Wan going for his life support system? Like, it actually reminded me of all things. when he was fighting general grievance in episode three and

[00:42:40] JONNY: mm-hmm

[00:42:40] JOSH: he kind of does that same move. he finds his like life support system and he goes after it and bust it up.

[00:42:45] I

[00:42:45] JONNY: That's cuz there'll be ones to smart Jedi, you know?

[00:42:48] MURRAY: Too. Betty just hates killing

[00:42:49] JOSH: Um, to be fair, that is a part of, how Reva redeemed herself, right? She, she decided, to be merciful

[00:43:02] MURRAY: yeah, but her. Her mercy

[00:43:05] saves like the galaxy overall, but, and that spirals Obi wants mercy. destroys

[00:43:14] JOSH: Has the opposite effect.

[00:43:15] JONNY: yeah. That, well, that's the thing like she's, she's trying not to kill an innocent little kid. He has a psychopathic, serial

[00:43:24] MURRAY: planets. Yeah. Who kills kids who kills

[00:43:27] JONNY: let you off with a pass. Yeah. Who kills kids? Who, who, who ends up blowing up a planet and he's like, I'll, I'll let you go on a, with a

[00:43:34] MURRAY: Don't you do it

[00:43:35] JONNY: he should have just killed them on the

[00:43:36] spot,

[00:43:37] MURRAY: it again?

[00:43:37] JOSH: wrong.

[00:43:38] JONNY: Yeah.

[00:43:40] I, I made the mistake once shame on me, but make my mistake twice. Well, good for you. it's

[00:43:45] like

[00:43:47] JOSH: you're not, you're not wrong. The only thing that I, the only thing that I can say is that I have a hard time bringing myself to

[00:43:55] MURRAY: now a hundred percent.

[00:43:57] JONNY: I know I know, but then like, uh,

[00:43:59] JOSH: I'm ignoring

[00:44:00] JONNY: three movies later? He he's like, Hey Luke, kill your dad. it's

[00:44:03] MURRAY: Yeah.

[00:44:05] JONNY: Luke's like, I have to kill my dad. He's like, yes. Make up for my mistakes.

[00:44:08] MURRAY: do it. So you gotta do it

[00:44:09] for

[00:44:09] JONNY: it.

[00:44:09] JOSH: No, that's

[00:44:10] MICKEY: he doesn't Obon also doesn't fill in new hope either.

[00:44:13] MURRAY: we get it, bro. You don't want to kill him. Geez.

[00:44:15] JOSH: Mickey, I think the only way to read that, I think you're right. Like somehow, OB won must know that he has to stay alive to kill the emperor.

[00:44:23] MICKEY: Or, or he has to stay alive for Luke to kill him or something. He

[00:44:25] just

[00:44:26] knows there has to be some

[00:44:27] JONNY: It has to, it has to be

[00:44:28] Luke. Luke is the, uh, the avenue to Vader, not OB

[00:44:32] one is what OB one is thinking, Luke.

[00:44:34] JOSH: because the reason Vader decides to kill the emperor is because of Luke. so I mean that tracks, I think

[00:44:39] MURRAY: It has, but it's like, but you could have, you didn't have to shoehorn in cogon at the very end to just be like, Hey, I was here too bad. You couldn't see me when you most needed me. And now that you don't, I'm gonna just ride your coattails of victory. But like, but if they would've had that,

[00:44:58] JOSH: Well, my

[00:44:59] MURRAY: I was gonna say, if they would've had that, then it would've even CLO when they're so busy trying to close all these, like new hope loops like that, they opened up with this show, like, why not close that?

[00:45:11] One of why Obon does not kill Vader, like, and you could have had that just in like a discussion, like one scene, which like, you're not fitting into a time slot. You could have added a scene to it. Like it's not like you have to fit in commercials and then be done by the next, the time the next show starts like. So the, I that's the problem with the writing for me. I love the show. Don't get me wrong. I'm talking about this, this episode and also the tunnels. But other than that, um, it's just like, you are creating this show out of nowhere, so you could do whatever you want with it. You could add whatever scenes you want and you could not have whatever scenes you want.

[00:45:51] So why are there these big like holes?

[00:45:56] okay. Oh yeah. It's history. Yeah. Yeah,

[00:45:57] JOSH: This is literally how it happened and they're just writing it down. Yeah. It's history.

[00:46:01] JONNY: I was really, , happy that, Baru actually

[00:46:04] had a

[00:46:04] moment in this show because they brought her back for like a wide shot when, when Luke is like pretending to fly the pod racer and it's like, she has no lines. And I was like, well, they got the back.

[00:46:15] They only get her bet for a wide shot. And then at the

[00:46:17] JOSH: Well, that's how you knew that they were coming back.

[00:46:19] JONNY: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And at the end of the show, she's like, fuck this shit, get the guns out. Like we're taking care of business. I was like, yo, this is awesome. And like Owen and B have to fight off like Reba. Like I thought that was such a great scene because they know they can't win, but like they do their damndest to like slow her down.

[00:46:37] And they also kept the surprise of like, well, not surprise, but I liked how, when Reva walks into the room where Luke is, he's already halfway out the door just to even save that moment of when Obi-Wan shows him mannequin's

[00:46:50] light saber. He doesn't know what it is. So like, he's not, he's still, he's still ignorant of some of the things that, um, are happening around them, you know?

[00:46:58] But I thought that was a whole, I thought that was a great scene.

[00:47:02] MICKEY: Um, yeah, no, I, I thought, I thought that was a great scene and it would've been a greater scene if it was just a

[00:47:07] MURRAY: cut. Yeah. With,

[00:47:08] MICKEY: it? Wasn't intercut. With the O other stuff

[00:47:11] JONNY: I agree. They

[00:47:12] MICKEY: would've been such a nice epilogue. It would've like, and it would've felt very Western to me, this very like, oh, it's done Obi-Wan's done, he's safe.

[00:47:20] He comes home. And then, you know, this searcher style shit's going down, um, on his return home is a whole separate epilogue. And I have to say like, man, star wars got really lucky. And the prequels getting one of the greatest, like working actors to play a bit part who in, like, in my opinion, I'm like, I'm starting to most of the other actors as a, as one of the supporting actors wiped the rest of them off.

[00:47:39] Like, I mean, IR McGregor did great. Heidi, uh, did great, but like, I felt like so many of the other actors were just not great in this show except like, Joe, just absolutely killing it.

[00:47:49] JOSH: Yeah, I wanted to talk about, , how great Owen and M Buru are the show, this episode in particular really does a lot for those two characters. Like, I think they're

[00:47:57] fucking awesome. an even uncle Owen who, I think not totally unfairly, he kind of has like a reputation for like, keeping Luke away from, his destiny and a life of excitement and adventure. It's like, no, like he, he loved him and cared about him and was willing to die to protect him.

[00:48:15] And it was

[00:48:15] JONNY: twice.

[00:48:17] JOSH: yeah, what

[00:48:18] was

[00:48:18] JONNY: then he does. Yep.

[00:48:19] MURRAY: does. Yeah.

[00:48:20] JOSH: he has that, that amazing line, you know, Reva says something like, why are you protecting him? He's he's

[00:48:25] not even yours or something. And he goes like, he is my own. that's some, like

[00:48:29] MURRAY: Yeah, because we just picture him as like the evil step uncle that won't let his son or join or nephew join and yeah, exactly. In a new hope.

[00:48:38] Yeah.

[00:48:38] JOSH: movie. Like that is literally

[00:48:39] MURRAY: join. But then once you learn that he's gonna go join the empire. And then like, maybe just maybe, um, like Owen knows like something

[00:48:52] JONNY: Well, it's funny because I always got the impression, like I never, even as a little kid, I always liked uncle Owen and oo, I never disliked them. And I always, even when I was a little tyke, I always thought that he knew about, uh, Anakin's father being a Jedi Knight who got caught up in like these adventures, life and death situations.

[00:49:14] And he knows that the empire is bad. And so when Luke is like, I want to be a space, not C and be a pilot. He's like, how about you work on the farm? And he is like, what about my dad? And like, he was a pilot too. Right. And he's like, yeah. About

[00:49:27] that. No. And yeah. And so like, I always got the, and even before the revelation of him, of Annigan being invaded, you just cut the idea that like, he's like, Luke, you don't know what you're talking about.

[00:49:40] And he's like, I'm just trying to do the best that I can as a desert farmer, you know? And so I always thought of him as a sympathetic figure. And then when he does die, I mean, it, as much as star wars just like said gloss over tragedy, like that it is a really good, like sweeping epic moment of music and cinematography and like, and so it is supposed to mean a little something you're not supposed to be like good

[00:50:04] MURRAY: just like, all right, morning's done.

[00:50:05] JONNY: not him, you know?

[00:50:07] MURRAY: Let's go to the bar.

[00:50:08] JONNY: Yeah, I know. Anyway, uh, yeah.

[00:50:11] MICKEY: I, I, I think like, you know, I mean you can definitely, and I think you read into it cause I think more than anything, you know, like when you talk about especially a new hope, it's all, it's like a lot of past prestige. So it's a lot of just playing off of the Western tropes, the homestead, the homestead character.

[00:50:23] Who's gonna be like, no, you can't go join the Calvary. You know, you can't, you can't go, you can't drive the, the, the, the, uh, be a cowboy and drive the, uh, horses across Texas. You need the farmstead type of thing. But, but I think again, that does bring back that maybe sympathy you do get from those, uh, you know, I mean, literally, like it's a great epic

[00:50:40] MURRAY: Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

[00:50:41] MICKEY: ripping off the searcher, just great epic scene, you know?

[00:50:43] JOSH: Uh, which, uh, uh, star wars does all over the place.

[00:50:47] JONNY: Yes. , and speaking about references Mickey, you tend to bring this up a lot when we talk about Bobba and stuff. I, I was actually just thinking earlier during this conversation that, um, every show kind of brings a different aspect of star wars, uh, to the table, but concentrates on mostly on that one aspect, you know?

[00:51:06] So like with the Mandalorian, I think it has much more of that flash Gordon serial sort of thing. And then with Bobba fat, it's like that Puy sort of vibe to it, you know, and. Yeah, exactly. Uh, like almost like the Grindhouse star wars if that makes any sense. And then like, which also works with Robert Rodriguez and then with Obi-Wan, it's like, this was like, this is all the weight of an emotion that people thought they're gonna kind of get out of the Prepos.

[00:51:40] And I just feel like this almost like brought the, the emotional character aspect that is in some star wars that they have it with Adam driver and Daisy Ridley, Mar Mark Campbell and Darth Vader, you know, uh, Han solo when he is about to be frozen, but not all of it, but like the entirety of you McGregor as Obi-Wan Kenobi, this show is just that, which I thought was great.

[00:52:04] I was like, this show is like all about

[00:52:06] MURRAY: Yeah. I thought it was missing like 1950s, like space DERs but I mean, other than that, yeah.

[00:52:14] JONNY: Little bit more Dexter.

[00:52:15] JOSH: , that's also one of the reasons why, and I've read this in some places and I don't entirely disagree, but I, I have different reasons. I like how comparatively smaller scale this whole production feels. you know, it, it sounds like a weird thing to say, but in comparison, to like , the larges and the excesses, if you will, of the prequels, like, you know, this is a comparatively, yeah.

[00:52:39] It's like, a more kind of austere sort of approach. And I think that's, kind of helped. mostly helped, by the use of the volume stage. because again, like, I think I said this in one of the earlier episodes, I'm really starting to see the edges of the volume stage, literally, and, figuratively it's knowing that all of this, or most of this is happening inside of that stage, , I start to feel like I am sort of inside a little stage for a lot of the stuff. and it's interesting because I mean, again, like this is an amazing, , technology and I recognize that these shows, the only reason they're happening is because, , The volume, makes them economically, feasible and, just from like a filmmaking, perspective, like there's something weird to me about like, more artificial the environment and the more green screen, the more CGI, like the more abstract a process the actual filmmaking process becomes the further removed it is from the material and even like the interpersonal drama, because like half the

[00:53:37] JONNY: The humanity of it.

[00:53:39] JOSH: yeah, because half the time, like you're not even looking at the other character that you're in the scene with.

[00:53:43] So, so I like the intimacy and the imediacy That it allows for, but that said like, it's not the, the end all be all of, uh, filmmaking, uh, technology. it does have its limits. And it's interesting, Mickey, I think you were on this episode, when we were talking about The Book of Boba Fett Dean CDY, the cinematographer.

[00:54:04] No, no. The other cinematographer whose name escapes me, he was talking about how, they shoot a lot of the exterior, desert scenes out, in the parking lot,

[00:54:14] MICKEY: Mm.

[00:54:14] JOSH: because the volume for whatever reason, like it doesn't, do great when it's supposed to. Replicate, real harsh sunlight, because for the screen, to read as, something real, , the luminance has to be really high. And it's interesting because what I keep noticing is I feel like in some of the shots, the background is a little, faded or like a little, It's like a little muddy, right?

[00:54:38] JONNY: Even the waters of the tower were like a muddy sort of murky waters to, to, to kind of get away with that.

[00:54:45] JOSH: Yeah. And so I feel like I'm seeing, like the default style of film and TV of the twenties is, going to look like, I feel like, I feel like everything is gonna be shot on these, these AR walls, sound stages was muddy, backgrounds and I get it.

[00:55:00] I get why, but, just as with the advent of CGI technology 30 years ago, it works really great for certain things but not when you use it for everything, the overuse of it, reveals the shortcomings. And I think that that's what we're starting to see with the volume stage.

[00:55:17] MICKEY: I we're, I

[00:55:17] JONNY: I, I

[00:55:18] MICKEY: of it.

[00:55:19] JONNY: yes. Yeah,

[00:55:20] MICKEY: well, part of me is wondering, are we seeing the limits of it or are we seeing again, my, my issue, my other big issue with this show is the volume stage is, is the visual effects, uh, on top of, I think some of the writing issues. And I think what part of me is wondering if, if it's not a limit issue, it might be the same issue we're seeing.

[00:55:36] Where is this Disney pulling back the, the money pulling back the support, um, putting too many, maybe like less craftsmen, more producers. Um, I, that, that's why I'm really curious, like behind the scenes stuff that we might hear like is, is this like Disney just actually maybe is delivers the crafts thing or is it literally Disney giving them half the people, half the funds, half the time.

[00:55:57] And they were in Bubba and that's what we're gonna, and that's what we're gonna see going in the future, you know? And it's gonna look worse because they, they can get worse. Cuz now we're in full on content. People will watch this, you know, you know, let's start actually like cutting, cutting where we can.

[00:56:11] JONNY: I think it's one of those things where it's about the, the priorities of the filmmaker, because, uh, we talked about this with the book of Bobba Fe, where you're like, why is everything look so kind of flat and whatever. And then you have the one episode of the, of the, where the Mandalorian shows up and he's in that ring planet.

[00:56:30] None of that looked muddy to me, Josh, all that looked very crisp and great. And like, but you can tell they put in the. To get that shot to make it look cool. And you see the lights go over the Chrome head of his mask. And so I think the talking about Obi-Wan in particular, he goes from one brown rock planet to another brown rock plant to another brown rock planet.

[00:56:56] And so the volume, like everything in the backgrounds, just gonna be kind of like muddy because of like what they're choosing to show. And then also what are they choosing to show? Are they trying to show cool shots? Sometimes they do with the glowing light SAS, but for the most part, as we see they get that handheld camera into like the actors face to show his real tears to show these acting moments.

[00:57:20] So all of that time that could be go into showing really cool shots with a guy that has a cool mask that has no facial expressions they're putting into like maybe. , I don't know. I'm, I'm assuming this they're probably putting us into maybe the third or fourth take of an actor's delivery or them going through their paces and finding a scene.

[00:57:43] And so they're not, they don't have that luxury of the empire strikes back where they went over a budget and schedule to get both. It's like the limits are shown by the priority of the filmmaker. Cuz if the, if the filmmaker really wants the volume to look the best it will, but they won't have those same emotional moments that Obi-Wan Kenobi had in the show is what I'm trying to

[00:58:06] say it, but it would've looked dope.

[00:58:08] you know,

[00:58:09] JOSH: I think this is a case of yes. And like, I think, both of you are right. I think that, the focus of the filmmaker here, was on, getting those moments, but, to Mickey's point, you know, star wars TV is a factory now for Disney plus. So, the amount of, time that they have get. the show in the can and also with the knowledge that they are on the volume stage, and they're not traveling from location to location. I think that, they can do more with less time, but it's still less time.

[00:58:40] MICKEY: Yeah. I, I, I, I am, I am gonna be, um, not as like this idea of like, you know, like, oh, the priority show. I, I don't know if there's a filmmaker behind this that's I I'm watching this show. I'm like, I don't know if there is a alter, I don't like, to me, this feels like a show by committee, a show by producers. that's the sense I'm getting, I'm like, I'm gonna, I tried to watch the moon night show.

[00:59:00] I got, I couldn't, um, and I'm getting the sense from not, and again, not just Disney Disney plus definitely Netflix is way beyond that. Netflix is just , you know, not putting, I, I think we're facing, I, you know, like I think TV got good for a while. Right. And now I think, I think we're facing, are we gonna have the next era of a teams and you know, other kind of.

[00:59:20] TV's just not gonna be great movies and it's, it's a money making business and they're gonna cut, cut corners, what you can. And we're just gonna get shows that just like, nah, okay. TV. It's nothing great. It's nothing, you know, the we're I, yeah, the, the, uh, prestig TV air is dead. And I think that that's what we're in.

[00:59:34] We're in this pre prestige era TV where it's, it's gonna be, again, we're not, they're not gonna let David Chase's do their thing anymore. We're gonna have Kathleen,

[00:59:41] MURRAY: Uh, she's got a very

[00:59:43] MICKEY: for, for better or

[00:59:44] MURRAY: um,

[00:59:45] MICKEY: not, but I'm saying she's not all her, she's a producer. Like we're, we're in the era of producer choices, not, not David, you know, I, I guess obviously David Chase and I mean of the,

[00:59:52] MURRAY: no, yeah, yeah. I get what you

[00:59:54] MICKEY: of who produced

[00:59:54] not producer, but you know

[00:59:55] MURRAY: would you put this with? Um, book of

[00:59:57] Bobba though,

[00:59:58] because I feel like what you're describing seems felt more like book a Bobba than this than obiwan did to me, like, um, like this definitely felt like it had more heart than book of Bobba fit book ABOE seemed like committee like that, the way I kept describing was it was just felt like very flat.

[01:00:16] Like there was no, like, not even depth in terms of story, but just even like just visually there's no cool shots in it. There was no anything like this had cool moments. Good, good character development, but, um, would you. Would you say like that this is more of, um, like a committee type thing than book above if it was, or, or are you putting them kind of like equal level?

[01:00:44] MICKEY: I, I think it's, we're, we're just going down this way. It's it's it's it's the next step, like in the book above step. And I, I think what saved this show is I think IR McGreer, it's so funny that just to think about that, like, you know, his uncle Dennis Lawson told him, like, this sci-fi shit, this star wars stuff, like you don't wanna get involved, man.

[01:00:59] It's not good. And somehow it's like, you can just tell us, become Irma. Reagan's like, baby, this character that he loves more than anything. And I, and I think that's what saved the. I, I think more than anything, the only thing that saved the show for me is that Irma greater like loves, or we want to know be more than anything, you know, and that's, and that, and that's definitely a saving grace to the show.

[01:01:17] And I, and, and I, and I fear what the next, although the next star show, at least a trailer looks good, but, and I think part of it is they're not using that, that the, that stage it's I from like my sense of that Andor show,

[01:01:28] JOSH: Yeah. I mean, I'm sure they're using it to some degree, but that's

[01:01:31] JONNY: sure, I think we are, I'm a little bit more optimistic because I feel like, when we talk about prestige te uh, TV, we're talking about, um, usually fantastic writing with show runners that do the entire show. And, uh, the stories and subjects are like, you know, the wire, the Sopranos Madmen, these are shows that don't need the volume in a budget.

[01:01:56] And so, uh, you know, you just gotta go to Jersey. And so when it comes to like doing, bringing star wars to TV, That's a monumental task. And since the, the, the biggest challenge to TV is, uh, both budget and time. Um, like I said before, I think they're just prioritizing the things they wanna show. And even though as much as I love everyone Kenobi and the Mandalorian, they still haven't found that perfect marriage of everything that makes star wars, star wars.

[01:02:28] Cuz I feel like what makes star wars star wars is so much? And so with them, they're like, let's concentrate more on this aspect with this character and more on this aspect with this character, like, like, and or is gonna be the spy star wars and, and that's gonna make a whole different thing. And so like I think they're still finding their paces, you know, and they're trying to figure out, uh, the best way to move forward.

[01:02:54] And I, I, you

[01:02:55] MURRAY: yeah, my thing is,

[01:02:56] JONNY: seeing it.

[01:02:57] MICKEY: I I'm just scared that it's a business and they're gonna find the wrong beat. They're gonna find the wrong reason. And, and I want the other thing

[01:03:03] MURRAY: But I think, go.

[01:03:04] MICKEY: Yeah. And the other thing I will always say about CGI and I assume about the same thing with, with this volume stage, and it's the same thing with why the other big TV we've been seeing the last 20 years.

[01:03:13] It's been reality TV. It's all union busting in, in my opinion, too, a lot of this stuff is its just like, how do you get around II? You know, you, you don't build.

[01:03:21] JOSH: yeah, I mean, that may be one of the, um, side, benefits from the point of view of the studio but I don't think that it's,

[01:03:29] MURRAY: out to, to do that. It's more. From up above. Right. Is that, or do you know like it's yeah. Like it's not

[01:03:37] MICKEY: Yeah.

[01:03:38] MURRAY: for lack of a better, yeah. Yeah.

[01:03:41] MICKEY: I mean, George Lucas was big on CGI and George Lucas is a famous union hater. So I, I, I don't think there's a coincidence that epi, that the pre are very big on, on CGI.

[01:03:50] JOSH: I don't think that that's, anyone's specific

[01:03:52] motivation with these shows.

[01:03:55] I think like the innovation of this, you know, is what Is what allows for the epic scale for the small price tag,

[01:04:04] you know, like it just wouldn't be economically viable.

[01:04:06] but a part of that though, you know, is it is, cheaper because it's a smaller crew

[01:04:11] MURRAY: So the,

[01:04:11] JOSH: So, I

[01:04:12] MURRAY: like the

[01:04:12] volume stage or values, whatever it wasn't created to break up like and avoid unions, but that's how it's kind of being used. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, oh, okay. Well, again, I'm misunderstanding everything. Cuz my thought would be like, I don't think someone's creating this.

[01:04:27] Like how could we get past unions and stuff like that? I, well, yeah, I, you're obviously way, way more versed than this than

[01:04:34] I am,

[01:04:34] MICKEY: I'm almost way more paranoid, too.

[01:04:36] JONNY: I

[01:04:36] think the volume is much more of a response to just blue screen. Like we can't act against blue screens.

[01:04:41] MURRAY: yeah, but then it's getting abused by the

[01:04:44] studios

[01:04:45] JONNY: both on well,

[01:04:46] every system

[01:04:47] will find a loophole to abuse things, you know?

[01:04:49] JOSH: Yeah. So, I mean, so the same thing happened with, CGI and like, the amount of, visual effects houses that are non-union and

[01:04:56] MICKEY: horribly paid horribly compensated, especially when you consider the hours they put in. And that's like the big thing with them. And, and then a lot of these ones, they go out business, they leave people in the large mid-career they, they

[01:05:06] shutter them.

[01:05:07] JOSH: Exactly.

[01:05:08] JONNY: What was the, the life of pie, visual effects. They won the Oscar and they, and they went outta business immediately because of that movie or something like.

[01:05:14] JOSH: so I mean, Mickey, like, I hear you like, this is definitely a part of that story. The only thing that I, I can't quite bring myself to, say or believe is that the explicit intention with the creation of this technology was to union

[01:05:29] bust? I think it's a,

[01:05:31] MURRAY: or

[01:05:31] JOSH: that is

[01:05:32] then embraced for sure.

[01:05:34] So, I mean, like to the extent that every, technological breakthrough is made and then employed without regard for how it will affect labor.

[01:05:43] MICKEY: Yeah. It's exploited. It's not even like it's, it's just, it's like some, someone made a piece of technology and then it's exploited by filmmakers. You can just be like, well, let's see. We can like, they look at their, their budget or time like, oh, we can save some money

[01:05:52] by just

[01:05:53] MURRAY: Like I

[01:05:53] MICKEY: you know,

[01:05:54] without Quis.

[01:05:54] MURRAY: that happening, but like, I guess where I'm kind of with Josh, where like I'm having a hard time making the leap to it being like a conscious slash kind of malicious intent to it. Like for, for just say, uh, I'm just using names just off the top of my head. Like, I don't think like I'm picturing like, say like Robert Rodriguez, like being like, oh, I want thi this scene.

[01:06:18] I wish there was a way to do it. And someone is like, well, we can't build the set that big, but we have this thing, you know, like almost like, um, like Robert Rodriguez is not like, alright, how do we get past this union bullshit. Maybe he is, I have no idea, but like, but I think like if I understand what Josh is saying correctly, it's just like, When it comes down to that level of how it's being used.

[01:06:41] Like, I don't see like Robert Rodriguez or what's, uh, Deborah Cho or being like, all right, how are we gonna get to, like, I think it's like the best tool that they were given. And then it just so happens that it's like fucking everybody over. Um, but then also they don't seem to care if they're aware of it and they still continue to use it because the machine's gotta run and, uh, people gotta get paid.

[01:07:04] JOSH: yeah. I mean,

[01:07:05] JONNY: I think

[01:07:05] one Kenobi is a union man.

[01:07:08] JOSH: for sure. No,

[01:07:09] MICKEY: you saw, you could tell he was mad at that boss there at the.

[01:07:13] JOSH: Yeah.

[01:07:13] JONNY: I have a, I have a question. Exactly. I have a question. Uh, you McGregor has said he would be, uh, very pleased to come back to play one Kenobi again. And so did, Hey, Christiansen, that's about Darth Vader and whatever. Do we want Because I think they should, uh, leave the bee as well, because I, I feel like, I feel like they can't keep going back to the well, and even like Luke Skywalker, who from my life was like always possibly my favorite star wars character.

[01:07:42] Um, I don't wanna see him again. Like I, and I, I was like, let him be like, I don't, I don't wanna see CG Luke. I mean, I, I like the idea if they were gonna do it to recast him, I don't even

[01:07:53] wanna see recast, Luke just let him

[01:07:55] MURRAY: I actually want something

[01:07:56] JONNY: that's where I stand with,

[01:07:57] like

[01:07:58] MURRAY: I'm sure. And ORs gonna be cool, but it's gonna tie into rogue one. I just want something that doesn't relate to this star war, the Skywalker saga at all. Like, don't get me wrong if the empire has to be involved because they're the overarching villain or government.

[01:08:11] Okay. Whatever. But like, I don't need, like, that's what I thought Mandalorian was at first and it like, don't get me wrong. I love Mandalorian, but it was, but then all

[01:08:20] of a sudden, and you're just like, Like, yeah, just like, all right. If I see one more Skywalker, I'm gonna

[01:08:27] JONNY: to become

[01:08:27] MURRAY: scream. Or if I see tattooing one more time, like, just give me like, it's an infinite galaxy and like the, like, give me other stories,

[01:08:39] JOSH: see, here's my thing with

[01:08:40] this. because I was actually thinking about this, last week, maybe we've got it all wrong. Like maybe star wars is not a fictional world. It's not an infinite galaxy. a mythological construct.

[01:08:50] Right. And if George Lucas's aim with star wars was to create a modern mythology, then telling stories

[01:08:54] about these events about these characters and

[01:08:57] MURRAY: yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:08:58] JOSH: yes, exactly. And in and around them before and after them,

[01:09:01] MURRAY: To them,

[01:09:01] Okay.

[01:09:02] JOSH: tied to them is, is maybe what star wars is, because without that mythological, framework, without these, particular characters in these events, star wars, isn't really star wars anymore.

[01:09:13] It's like, uh, Dungeons and dragons in space,

[01:09:16] MURRAY: Um, I'm not a pro to that,

[01:09:17] but

[01:09:18] JONNY: Well, my, my only counterpoint. Yeah, I'm, I'm fine with that. My only counterpoint to that is, uh, talking with the Lord of the rings. He developed his own mythology for that, and that spans like. 30,000 years of history that like he goes into, and this is one of those things where it's like, star wars seems too timid.

[01:09:39] And I think this has a lot to do with like the difference between novels and movie making cuz in the novel, it wasn't like, oh, and then talking, utilize Harrison Ford, the biggest star of his time to play FTO in his book. It was like, it was like, he was just a character in his book. So when you left up to the mind, you can do all these things.

[01:09:59] But with movies, like they're really hesitant to get away from

[01:10:03] these iconic images that people

[01:10:06] have. And so, and because with Toki, there is no iconic image except for the one that you make in your mind. So with star wars, it's like they can go a thousand years into the past or the future, but they don't want to, because that means no more X wing, no more Han solo,

[01:10:21] JOSH: Well, sure. So, so,

[01:10:23] JONNY: And they don't wanna, they

[01:10:24] don't want to get too far away.

[01:10:25] JOSH: you know, I think you're hitting on something there. you know, star wars was conceived of, in large part as a cinematic experience. And I don't know if you can divorce that iconic imagery from that like intrinsic star wariness, I think you can try, you know, Mickey uses something interesting. On the jet iPod, you know, you were like, you never really had any interest in knowing anything that happened, uh, before star wars, before a new hope. I kind of understand what you mean, you know, in a certain way, it's without these characters, without, the central conflict without the iconography, like, I'm not that interested,

[01:11:01] MICKEY: Yeah. I mean, like, if, if you are gonna go to the point where like, we don't want us, you know, see these people or anything, you're gonna make something else. Why not just make another sci-fi show. And, and that the same thing is like when they have tribe, they don't feel.

[01:11:10] And that, and that's why, you know, I don't think Disney will, because Disney did try to make a non star war side. They may try to make John Carter and it was a flop

[01:11:17] MURRAY: Yeah.

[01:11:17] MICKEY: okay. We gotta buy star wars. We can't do anything else. And if we're gonna buy star wars, because star wars are gonna have to fandom because the fandoms gonna like the Skywalkers and the chew

[01:11:25] eats, like we gotta have the

[01:11:26] catwalks and.

[01:11:28] JOSH: there was always a financial imperative to make more star wars, but, , the differences, before there was that financial imperative to make more star wars along with the, personal interests and preoccupations and vision of, you know, a single artist in the form of George Lucas, now that you remove that. the only thing that is there is the financial imperative. And, , there is no one who will say, okay, you know what? I think that's enough. I don't think there should be anymore. so there is this, need to figure out how to keep on making star wars. And that's why I do think, they will move beyond the Skywalkers and the everything.

[01:12:05] Whereas like there's a part of me that, sort of wishes that, we

[01:12:10] MURRAY: that's what I want. it's like, it's so like incestuous now. It's like, I get it. This person's related to this person and everyone's gotta be related to somebody else from somewhere else in the saga. And it's like, they have like, this it's like the, like a, this Skywalker container. And then every single thing that they think of every show, every movie, every character has to fit into the same box.

[01:12:31] That's not growing with it. And so it's just like

[01:12:36] JOSH: Yeah, but that's also kind of

[01:12:37] MURRAY: mean, I don't mythology could get so like, but see like, say for religion, like I could give you like stories that maybe yeah. If you follow this person to this person, to this person, to this person, like throughout like, you know, 20 generations, there'll be, you know, related to king David or something like that, but that's not the whole thing, you know?

[01:13:02] And they, and they do that, like in the beginning of the book of Matthew, they'd just say like, they give, um, like a whole list of Jesus's genealogy. So you could see how it goes all the way back to like Adam and David and stuff like that. So there are aspects to it, but then like, there's gonna be story of like Gideon and Jonah and stuff that don't ha they don't like tie into, it's not like, oh, Jonah is like the nephew of Peter.

[01:13:32] Like, you know, it's, it's not like that. So it's, it's bigger.

[01:13:36] JONNY: What.

[01:13:37] MURRAY: Um, I don't know, it's like bigger than this infinite galaxy and it takes place if you, if you believe it literally, uh, like on earth, like, you know, it's like with just one planet, probably one continent, right? Like at the, or between Africa and the, in the middle east and stuff like that.

[01:13:55] But,

[01:13:56] JONNY: Well, I mean, like the

[01:13:57] idea of like the fall of Lucifer and Adam and Eve, and that has nothing to do with like, uh,

[01:14:04] MURRAY: I mean that,

[01:14:05] that actually has everything

[01:14:07] JONNY: Like there's

[01:14:07] a, does a, I mean, I mean, it is, it is, it is. I mean it, but what, what I'm trying to say is like, it's not like Jesus died on cross. Like two days later, there is like a span of time that led up to that, like it, so like there are stories to be

[01:14:21] told for, like, I, I think Josh, when you talk about, yeah, like I think Josh, when you talk about mythology, it's almost like of, um, I kind of get this impression of like talking about Ze.

[01:14:34] Like hanging around with Greeks and Hercules, but like, like going to bring back Tolkin again, there are so many and the simil, which is kind of like the Bible for the middle earth. Yeah. Uh, when they, they go into so many crazy ass stories before, like the sun is even created, you know, like, like, and it's just like one of those things where it's like, and then there's like another 20,000 years of history before Lord of the rings even happens.

[01:15:02] And

[01:15:02] it's like,

[01:15:02] JOSH: exactly. But, the Simian, is that how you say it?

[01:15:04] SIM Simian? that's not the main event, like that's

[01:15:09] like the footnotes and the appendix, right? Like, the main event is, the Lord of the rings, uh, trilogy the Hobbit,

[01:15:16] JONNY: sort of, if, if you read the cuz I've read, I've read the Simian. And like, there are things that they gloss over and then there are things that they concentrate on. But like the point is that like everybody who reads it and likes talking has such a passion for the Simian because of the stories that are told in there.

[01:15:33] And some of those events could be a couple pages long or just one chapter. But it's like, your mind is like, oh my God, like all of this like information and all this stuff is so cool and they could easily, um, make a movie out of it or something. That's why I was getting frustrated and I don't wanna go too much on Lord rings, but that's why I was getting so frustrated with every single game and thing that came out about Lord of rings was about the fellowship.

[01:15:56] And it's like, guys, that's like, if you're doing like the history of

[01:15:59] MURRAY: which is the, almost what they do

[01:16:01] JONNY: you know, it's like, it's like, there's. exactly. And that's and star wars is the same thing. It's like, you're only talking about the rebel verse empire things, like give us like the Julius

[01:16:11] MURRAY: yeah,

[01:16:11] JONNY: of star wars or give us the, give us the, you know, like give us, give us something.

[01:16:17] You can still have Jedi and lightsabers and force and whatever, but like, but just give us something that's different,

[01:16:23] you know?

[01:16:25] JOSH: yeah, I get what you're saying. I just think like, without that unifying

[01:16:30] why is it still

[01:16:32] MURRAY: but the unifying idea doesn't have to

[01:16:34] be the Skywalkers though. It could be other aspect. It could be the

[01:16:38] force.

[01:16:38] JONNY: could be because, it's the cinematography, it's the force. It could be, , the Jedi Knights. It could be, uh, spaceships. It could be, uh, SCO drills. It could be, uh, good versus evil. And you could

[01:16:50] MURRAY: have

[01:16:50] light saber still.

[01:16:51] JONNY: guns

[01:16:52] MURRAY: do

[01:16:52] JONNY: that. Like, it doesn't necessarily have to. Yeah. And like, all those things are very star wars. I mean, like, even if you look at like the sequel trilogy, they were really, uh, trying to bring back the old characters and the old iconography, the X wings and tie fighters. But like, I don't think people like,

[01:17:12] uh,

[01:17:13] like

[01:17:14] I think with the

[01:17:14] MURRAY: not Chewbacca or related

[01:17:16] to

[01:17:16] JONNY: like with, with you, with the sequel trilogy.

[01:17:19] Yeah. Like, like, like, right.

[01:17:21] Like, Like, like, Ray, no one knew who she

[01:17:23] MURRAY: oh no, but

[01:17:24] she's related to somebody. And you're like, fuck. yeah,

[01:17:27] JONNY: she didn't have to be a Palpetine. She just could have been her own person, you know?

[01:17:31] JOSH: but the reason why that was interesting is because it was in conversation with the previous films. Like it only had meaning, because of what had come before

[01:17:40] JONNY: that can be a natural

[01:17:41] step because I feel like, I feel like they can make, let's say they make another new trilogy of movies. It would obviously be after the sequel. So that would be connected to the last trilogy. And then eventually like real history. When you get down to like movie number 35, it's no longer connected to a new hope, but it's

[01:17:58] MURRAY: yeah. It's like with

[01:17:59] JONNY: movies that connect to a new hope, you know?

[01:18:02] So

[01:18:02] like eventually we'll all get to Abraham Lincoln at some point in history, but

[01:18:06] JOSH: no, but that's what I'm saying though. like do we need this?

[01:18:09] JONNY: no, we Don. But it it's just, and that's why I was saying, like, we don't need another Obi-Wan Kenobi show I don't wanna see Luke Skywalker ever again. cause I feel like those stories are told

[01:18:19] MURRAY: cuz if like, I

[01:18:20] JONNY: know which is going back full circle to what we

[01:18:22] MURRAY: example, but like if you look at it, everything led up to of the first Avengers that, and then like branches of that, like the I'm really into Daredevil now. Um, thanks to friends of the show, James. Um, but then like even the show Daredevil talks about the incident in New York.

[01:18:37] Right. And then as we're going now, all the shows talk about like the blip, right? They don't talk about the. Incident in New York anymore. Cuz it's so far removed. And so you could do something like this, but it seems like the everything revolves around this. And then like going back to re like, you know, um, my only as aspect of religion that I truly know, which would be the Bible, like you'll I could give you a story of like, um, a judge that, and it's got all details.

[01:19:07] He's a lefthanded judge. And then he like killed the big fat king while the king was taking a shit true. Well, true story in the Bible. Um, but the thing is like, but that's, that's like it, like, I'm sure it has bigger ramifications and everything like that, but it's not like, oh, Ehud the judge is cousin to this person.

[01:19:25] Who's this person, this person this, and then all the way down the line. No, he's just like the left a lefthanded judge that like, and like, I don't know why he's like, they specify he is lefthanded or anything like that, but it is a mythology into itself, but it just it's like one story The world that is the Bible.

[01:19:42] Like it's not, it doesn't tie into anything. I'm sure that history dominoes to a certain way, but that's not the whole point of it. Like Sampson is referred to later on in the new Testament, by, in some letters that Paul's writing, he talks about the heroes of faith and he talks about Sampson, but son hasn't been relevant since way back in the, the book of judges himself.

[01:20:03] And, you know, it's like, it doesn't all revolve around like Jesus and, and all that. Well, it does, but you get what I'm saying? Shut up.

[01:20:09] JOSH: Yeah. I mean, I'll put my cards out on the table here. , like obviously I'm a huge star wars fan. I'm doing a podcast about star wars for crying out

[01:20:14] loud. The, the, yeah, I know, but you know, I think what I'm really chafing at is there's less room for new stories, new films, new, works as long as, The star wars and the marvels and the, you know, the franchises are, you know,

[01:20:32] MURRAY: yeah.

[01:20:32] JOSH: at. And it's

[01:20:33] just, I guess I'm just a little frustrated that, the, that financial imperative driving all decisions is sort of the main,

[01:20:41] JONNY: man.

[01:20:41] JOSH: Reason why more star wars exist. Like, not to be Pollyannish about it because obviously, I can't say this enough times, George Lucas was also making star wars, to make money among other things.

[01:20:53] And I guess I'm a little more sympathetic to someone who genuinely believes in what they're doing. And it's like a very personal, Specific, , point of view that is coming through, versus this like headless, monster that will keep rumbling across the earth,

[01:21:10] MURRAY: D Mau I've come to

[01:21:11] bargain.

[01:21:12] I

[01:21:12] guess where,

[01:21:13] where, like I'm

[01:21:14] in agree agreement and kind of wrestling. Too's like, why, why isn't like star wars should be big enough that somebody that's not driven purely by money. That just has a good story to tell, can tell it in the star wars universe, without it having to tie into everything else, yeah.

[01:21:36] With,

[01:21:36] JONNY: I think Taika YTT is trying to do that with his stuff. I think he says it has not. Yeah. I think he said he would only do it if it had nothing to do with the

[01:21:44] MURRAY: No. I mean, but that's what he

[01:21:46] JONNY: I, I might be,

[01:21:46] MURRAY: with, um, with Marvel. Right. I didn't see Thor. I don't even think it's out yet, but like I saw a story where he like added stuff into Thor to just like, oh, just to see what the next guy's gonna do with it. I don't know. I have no, like, just like almost kind of like having fun and just telling like these self cuz even Ragner rock didn't really have anything to do with anything else.

[01:22:06] It was kind of like a its own standalone thing. It had some aspects,

[01:22:12] but

[01:22:13] JONNY: Yeah. And then there is, there's like one mid credit

[01:22:17] MURRAY: yeah, which they just probably were like, shit, we gotta

[01:22:20] figure out

[01:22:20] how to tie this in. Yeah. Said yeah,

[01:22:23] JONNY: yeah, we got to slap that soon. Uh, but I also think that the Marvel phenomenon is an interesting experiment because, um, it, I thought it was awesome that it really did lead up to the culmination of infinity war and then end game.

[01:22:40] And then I just thought they should have just stopped. And like, and after end game, they should have been like, let's chill out for like 30 years or maybe that's too long, but you know what I'm trying to say, or just, just do something different or like get out of the NCU and have standalone movies or whatever, but like, but there is that sort of thing where it's like, At what point do people have to walk away from things as a filmmaker and as a fan?

[01:23:05] Because, uh, you know, like the, the, the filmmakers would never tell us not to come see their movies cuz they want our money too. But at the same time, we have to remember that like we have aged out of the primary target audience for most star wars things. And so when do we recognize that we have to walk away?

[01:23:26] When do filmmakers recognize that like we shouldn't touch star wars again for 50 years? You know, I know that's a discussion that happens a lot with like the alien franchise and like why, why is this not working? It's like, maybe this is because we're we just keep putting our heads on it. You know, it's one of those things where it's like, when do people walk away?

[01:23:44] And since that financial incentive is there, they will never walk away until audiences stop streaming it and stop buying tickets. And then that's when they stop.

[01:23:54] MICKEY: do you, think's gonna, what do you think's wheels are gonna come off first. Marvel or

[01:23:57] star wars for

[01:23:57] Disney.

[01:23:58] MURRAY: too big in my opinion, Marvel, cuz it's like, oh, I wanna see, you know, multiverse of Manness. So I need to see all 28 other films and TV shows first. Whereas like I it's just getting, and now that they're lumping in like multiverse, Manness like you basically needed to watch Juan division for that.

[01:24:17] And I feel like that's one of the first ones to do it and you're just like, oh, so now we're doing, don't get me wrong. Like if, if dare devil, like I'm, I'm the biggest fucking dare devil slut right now. But um, so I want like I'm reading one right now in which like Spider-Man's blind and Daredevil. Like showing him the ropes of being blind.

[01:24:37] Like that's a story that will never be told in the MCU because it's not like flashy and cool and stuff like that. But it's a great story with heart. But anyways, I digress. I just wanted to talk about that comic, but oh,

[01:24:49] JONNY: I, I actually, I actually think the wheels would probably, ironically, I, I think the wheels would probably fall off star wars first, but for a different reason, I think, I think Marvel is so super prolific that they already had

[01:25:03] MURRAY: true.

[01:25:04] JONNY: missteps, but they just trained through it because of their momentum.

[01:25:07] And so they're like, that was a misstep. We're gonna do the next, one's gonna be better. But like, so solo almost killed star wars dead in his tracks. And it was the financial success like, and like, and, and critics kind of like liked it. And like, and solo, there were like, we need to rethink star wars. That's why, and Kenobi's a TV show now.

[01:25:26] That's why the man DeLorean happened. That's why Bo. So like if one of these shows fucking flops, they're gonna be like no star wars

[01:25:33] for a bit, until we

[01:25:35] MURRAY: It's and

[01:25:37] they like overthink like

[01:25:38] they

[01:25:38] JONNY: wars

[01:25:39] MURRAY: And they get the wrong lessons from it, like you were saying. Yeah,

[01:25:42] JONNY: Mm-hmm .I, I think Marvel eventually will just become so prolific.

[01:25:48] They'll be like watching another

[01:25:49] MURRAY: It's

[01:25:50] JONNY: TV show, but with star wars, uh, with star wars, they're gonna be like, yeah, they'll be like, let's take a break for 10 years. Like, they'll just take a break, you know? So it's gonna, it's gonna happen at some point, cuz the things that they have on the slate or like way too many projects,

[01:26:06] they're doing the Marvel

[01:26:08] JOSH: Any closing thoughts,

[01:26:10] MURRAY: OB won was great. I, I, didn't love the finale, but aspects of the finale, I really, really, really loved overall. Didn't like the episode, but I very much loved the series. Might be my favorite star wars series could be my favorite star wars thing. Aside from empire strikes back and unrelated Daredevil rules.

[01:26:28] And everybody should read Daredevil.

[01:26:32] JOSH: Mickey, any closing

[01:26:33] thoughts,

[01:26:33] MICKEY: Um, I'm very happy for Iman McGregor. I think he got what he wanted. I think, I think he got to do something he really loved and I'm happy for that. And, um, I am also concerned for the future of not just star wars, but TV in general of what this show, I think pretends, um, and, um, also just appreciate seeing Joe Eggerton hitting it outta the park.

[01:26:54] JOSH: J

[01:26:55] JONNY: I think Obi-Wan Kenobi as a show was, uh, fantastic. It's it like Murray? It might be my favorite star wars show so far. Uh, but only because my priorities lie and just seeing. Those powerful character moments that I wanted to see from Obi-Wan Kenobi and Darth Vader that we could never get for many years.

[01:27:15] Um, that being said, I like to perceive Obi-Wan Kenobi, uh, as a farewell gift of sorts. So like, so I feel like this is just like a present to fans being like, here's what we really could have done with you and McGregor and, and this potential. And they did it and I'm like, kudos to you.

[01:27:36] MURRAY: yeah.

[01:27:36] JONNY: could, now I could put that away and I don't need to see any more of that.

[01:27:40] So yeah, like it was like, it was a really, really lovely gesture that I thoroughly loved. Like I like, I, I, I, I'm on board with this show, but, um, I'm also done. I think I might be a little bit burnt out with some star wars stuff and Marvel, and like, I want to see some new things and, uh, so hopefully the volume will.

[01:28:03] open up some more opportunities for, uh, other

[01:28:06] MURRAY: I'm down for more Mando, but please know

[01:28:08] more. Oblon just let it, just let it end like this. You shut your mouth.

[01:28:15] JONNY: I don't even care if more Mandalorian comes out, I I'll watch it. I'm I'm, I'm gonna watch everything. But like, but like, I'm honestly, like, I think I'm at peak saturation. Like, I feel

[01:28:24] like it's, it's, it's losing its specialness. It's

[01:28:27] MURRAY: Yeah. Well, I know

[01:28:28] JONNY: thing and I don't want it

[01:28:30] to become another thing.

[01:28:31] MURRAY: I definitely see what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah. But I don't want, I don't want

[01:28:35] JONNY: oh yeah. I'm, I'm going to eat my words, but you know what I'm trying to say.

[01:28:38] JOSH: Well, something that we were talking about before, I think all of us kind of touched on it a little bit, but I think, you know, Mando,

[01:28:45] MURRAY: Mm-hmm

[01:28:46] JOSH: that's a better TV show. , Because it's not about at least initially was, not about the main players John, you were saying like, this show felt very, I forget the word you used,

[01:28:57] but

[01:28:57] JONNY: Waity weighty. No, it's like gun smoke or

[01:28:58] JOSH: Yeah. , in a way that the others didn't, I didn't, I think that's because , with this show, we're really tapping into that like main vein of the main line, movies, whereas, Mando it's like a perfect, , TV series premise. It's, it's just a guy and his son going from town to town

[01:29:13] MURRAY: Yeah. Have gone. Will travel. Yeah.

[01:29:15] JOSH: you know,

[01:29:15] JONNY: something.

[01:29:16] JOSH: like that's a TV show, right? whereas this is more of a mini series or like an event, and that's why I do hope that, that it doesn't have a second season, but I mean then again,

[01:29:28] like if it. does,

[01:29:30] I'm fine

[01:29:30] MURRAY: And we'll talk about each episode. Yeah,

[01:29:32] JOSH: Yeah. I

[01:29:33] JONNY: gonna watch it. We're gonna like it. We'll talk about it, but it's just like, the anticipation is so tepid right now for more things, cuz like, cuz we're getting things that we're not even asking for. So it's just like we're, we're becoming spoiled children at this point, you know?

[01:29:48] JOSH: no, I mean, for me, it really is what I was saying. I feel conflicted because on the one hand, like I do enjoy a lot of the star wars stuff and I am, happy that most of it exists. But on the other hand, I have to wonder what the cost is like, is it crowding out, that we could be getting that's new and interesting and popular culture.

[01:30:08] Like, you know, what other, stories are we not hearing? And, how much of this is just sort of comfy blanket of the nostalgia of things that we loved when we were kids, when, the world is such a

[01:30:20] horrific

[01:30:20] hellscape right

[01:30:21] MURRAY: Disney, if you're listening, it's okay to leave people wanting more. You don't always have to satisfy that. you could leave them wanting more. Hm,

[01:30:28] JOSH: yeah, but that said, like, I really enjoyed the show and I do think that it was, um, you and McGregor and Hayden Christiansen's, uh, finest hour in star wars. I really do. I think it was, I think it was

[01:30:42] worth it, uh,

[01:30:44] JONNY: percent.

[01:30:44] JOSH: For that. And I think, , I do think, Deborah chow really did some phenomenal work here and I just really enjoyed, the ride.

[01:30:51] I thought that it really, , hit the moments that meant the most. And, because I love star wars so much. I'm, you know, there are like flaws that you could dwell on. but because of my love for it and the amount that it, gets right. I just don't really have the

[01:31:08] desire to like shit on it.

[01:31:11] I mean, that's

[01:31:11] just,

[01:31:11] JONNY: I'm in agreement with you. It's like I'm admiring the things that they gave me that, that, that they, that they did well. And I really appreciate it that since we didn't need. need to see these things. So it's like, like I said, it's like the, it's like the most lovely gesture and I loved it for that.

[01:31:27] You know,

[01:31:28] JOSH: Yeah. And on that note, , if you like what you heard, please visit trash com pod.com, where you can read and review the show. And we are trash com pod across all social media, trash pod, one on Twitter, for reasons I'm not gonna get into. And, we will see you on season two of all. We won.

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Jon

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Murray

Writer