FALL OF THE REPUBLIC: John Flynn's Infamous Fan Script (with DR. JOHN L. FLYNN)

[00:00:00] JOSH: Welcome to Trash Compactor. I'm Josh in our continuing coverage of the Star Wars prequels. We finally arrived at episode three, and who can forget the famous opening dual between Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi at the beginning of the movie on the lava world of Sigma Vulcanis, locked in mortal combat over who will possess the ultimate power bestowed by the Kyber Crystal? No, you didn't see that in the Episode Three? Well, I happen to be holding the script to Star Wars 3: Fall of the Republic, right here, and it says here...oh, written by John L. Flynn. Who's John L. Flynn? Well, I'm glad you asked, because today's guest is the author of the infamous fan treatment for the final of the Star Wars prequels written in the early 1980s and to this day has been mistaken for the real thing. It's actually true. I was doing some research for this and I saw on a message board someone still thought it was a real Lucasfilm document and the the timestamp was 2022. So it's still fooling people. I'm fairly certain that I encountered this document first for sale at a dealer's table at a Star Trek convention in the early 1990s.

And it's held sway over me ever since as a window into what the mysterious dark times before the original Star Wars movies might have been like.And for that reason, I'm very pleased to welcome its author, Mr. John L. Flynn, to Trash Compactor. Mr. Flynn, thank you very much for joining me today.

[00:01:34] JOHN L. FLYNN: Oh, thank you very much for having me. And it's actually Doctor.

[00:01:39] JOSH: Oh, it's actually doctor, excuse me. Welcome Dr. Flynn, to Trash Compactor.

[00:01:41] JOHN L. FLYNN: Well, that's all right. Happy to be here.

[00:01:44] JOSH: first things first. I was wondering if you could clear something up for me. , So, I'm holding in my hands, a copy of Star Wars three Fall of the Republic Story Treatment by John L. Flynn, with a red cover. I think this may be a copy that I acquired at the aforementioned Star Trek Convention, but it says here, first edition January 20th, 1982. but the pages inside, say September 6th, 1983. So I'm wondering if you could clear up for me, when did you actually write this?

[00:02:13] JOHN L. FLYNN: I wrote that for, uh, Christmas, uh, 1982.

[00:02:17] JOSH: Oh,

[00:02:19] JOHN L. FLYNN: So I was, um, um, at the time, um, working a minimum wage job. and I wanted to be able to buy my friends Christmas gifts for the upcoming holiday deck. And I honestly couldn't afford to do that. And so, uh, one of my, um, friends said, why don't you write them a story and give that as a gift for the holidays?

And, uh, well, they said, you know, well, what kind of story should you be writing? And so somebody suggested, why don't you write a Star Wars story? And so I, I wrote, um, uh, the treatment that you have right there. Uh, we all thought that the next, uh, trilogy would follow our, our middle trilogy, and that we had been told that Lucas was gonna tell the story in reverse.

So episode three would be before episode two in episode one.

[00:03:25] JOSH: Oh,

[00:03:26] JOHN L. FLYNN: And so that is the reason why I did, uh, my treatment for the third, , film in the series, thinking that that would've been the first one that we would've seen. And so I, I literally wrote that for about a dozen of my friends. I bound it in the way that you have it there. In fact, it, it looks like it could be an original.

And, uh, I had the cover printed, it was a modest production again, just for my friends at Christmas. So one of my friends was a wheeler dealer at the conventions. And, uh, what I didn't know they were going to do was they were going to mark that up and sell that at the conventions as the actual treatment for.

The next Star Wars film . And you know, it, it's kind of flattering if you think about it, but, uh, um, I never made a dime on this. This is, in fact, I probably lost money printing this up and giving it out to my friends as a Christmas gift that year. And, um, this guy, uh, reproduced hundreds, maybe thousands of these, and these went out all over the conventions.

And, um, that's kind of the, the story of where that came from. Um, I, I, the next Christmas, I, I wrote a treatment for one of the Star Trek films and gave that as a gift. And, uh, I think it was called the Trial of James, uh, t Kirk. And this was supposed to be, uh, before, um, the Voyage Home.

[00:05:09] JOSH: You know what, that's actually lighting up some neurons that haven't fired in quite a long time. That that rings a bell. The trial of James tki. I'm gonna have to go and dig that up cuz now I'm curious to read it. Um, but that's quite a story actually. I think, today they would probably term that going viral.

[00:05:26] JOHN L. FLYNN: Well, yes. You know, uh, that would be exactly, uh, it and a again, it was kind of flattering, but I didn't know that this guy was gonna make, uh, um, a lot of money from it. And you know what? I, I would go buy, I would, uh, surf by his table cuz I did a lot of conventions back then. I, I did maybe 12 a year. And I would surf by his table and I'd kinda listen to him and he would be telling people, oh yeah, this is coming from Lucas film itself.

And this is gonna be the next movie and oh my God,

[00:06:05] JOSH: Wow. That's really, yeah. So that actually, fills in a lot of the puzzle pieces for me. Cuz I was always wondering how this sort of acquired the, the urban legend status that it did. And it seems, I mean, not on. Your part certainly. But it seems that some of that, , was intentional showmanship, which is fascinating.

I didn't know that.

[00:06:25] JOHN L. FLYNN: would you believe before I, finalize that there's a science fiction writer by the name of Alan, w w o l d. And at the time I was aspiring to become a science fiction and writer. I've achieved that now, but. Uh, I, I showed that to Alan, and Alan worked through the document and, and made all of the corrections for me.

And he says, you know, I, I believe it, but you know, I'm sure they're gonna come up with something even more bizarre than that for the film . And the last, uh, you know, that's what we have is something pretty bizarre,

[00:07:02] JOSH: yeah. Well, why don't we jump right to that because, um, I reread it in preparation to speak with you. I hadn't read it probably since the early 1990s. and I was actually struck how many things in here kind of echoed things that ended up in, the actual episode three that George Lucas made.

Episode three, revenge of the Sith, , came out in 2005. So 20 ish years. He wrote his, after you wrote yours. you know, there were things like, the idea that the death of Anakin's wife has something to do with his final, fall to the dark side. there's a montage scene in your, treatment of the Fall of the Jedi as they make their last stand. the end sequence is very similar with, um, the various, characters, uh, where they end up sort of, setting the table for episode four, the original Star Wars.

And I was just wondering, I'm curious if you wonder, because I certainly did, do you think George Lucas ever read your treatment,

[00:08:01] JOHN L. FLYNN: Well, you know, this is interesting. A few years ago, and I'm, I'm thinking maybe 10 years ago, Lucas, um, was publishing a magazine. Do they still publish their magazine? I, I don't recall.

[00:08:14] JOSH: the Star Wars magazine?

[00:08:15] JOHN L. FLYNN: yes.

[00:08:16] JOSH: the Star Wars insiders, the official,

[00:08:18] JOHN L. FLYNN: Yes,

[00:08:18] JOSH: star Wars magazine. Yeah.

[00:08:20] JOHN L. FLYNN: yes. That's it. There was a person, uh, working at Lucas Film and, uh, he had a copy of my treatment and he said, you know, I'd, I'd like to do an interview with you for the magazine. And I said, you know, that would be very, very nice. And he says, you know, you talk about a lot of things that ended up going into the final film.

And I, you know, I, I have my down says to whether George, read your script or, you know, maybe had somebody read it and, you know, give him a, a rundown on what you had, uh, put together. So we were all set to do this interview, sort of like what you and I are doing today. And at the last minute, George canceled, um, the interview.

And, uh, he said to the guy, and I wish I could remember his name, but he was somebody who actually worked in, uh, Lucas Film and he was part of the magazine. And, um, he said, you know, John, I'm sorry. We're gonna have to can this because, um, this is a little bit too touchy for the, for the magazine here. And I said, okay, you know, and I was disappointed.

And he says, tell you what I'm gonna send you, uh, a couple of our official shirts, t-shirts that we have around the office. And they did that. And, um, afterwards I kept thinking, you know what, it's, it's very possible that I touched on a few areas that George did not want to admit were written by someone else, or, uh, you know, the ideas came up from somebody else.

Now, with that said, uh, all throughout the time that, um, um, this is making its initial rounds and I'm giving these as Christmas gifts, I was, um, starting out as a writer. I wrote for Star Log. Do you remember Star Log Magazine?

[00:10:15] JOSH: I remember Starlog. I had many, many issues of that on my shelf as a, as a kid. I don't know where they are now,

Yeah. I love Starlog

[00:10:23] JOHN L. FLYNN: And so I was working for Starlog Sy. Fantastic. Do you remember Sin? Fantastic.

[00:10:28] JOSH: Oh yes,

[00:10:29] JOHN L. FLYNN: Yeah. And, and there was a horror magazine called Fania

[00:10:33] JOSH: Bangor.

[00:10:33] JOHN L. FLYNN: yeah, yeah. So I was doing, I was, uh, writing the occasional article for those different magazines and publishing, and that was sort of the beginning of my career as an actual writer today.

Um, I've, uh, I just turned, uh, my 21st manuscript. Into my agent and she's reading it over now before we, um, offer it to a publisher. And so, you know, I have, uh, 20 books that are already in print and this would be Nu book number 21. So, you know, so I've, I've come a long ways since that time period.

[00:11:11] JOSH: Absolutely.

[00:11:12] JOHN L. FLYNN: But, uh, with my introduction of Star Log to you, I was doing a lot of reading of background stuff and I was, uh, very friendly with, uh, Dave McDonald.

I don't know if you remember Dave McDonald. He used to edit Star Log and, um, Dave McDonald sent me a whole lot of stuff and he says, pick through this and you know, if there's something here you'd like to write an article about, you know, we'll go ahead and, and publish it. And, you know, um, he gave me some of the early stuff that.

Lucas Film, uh, had produced, um, in, you know, um, Lucas wrote a bunch of drafts, um, and some of them were just, um, like stories. Some of them were actual scripts. And so I was able to read through a lot of this stuff. They were called the Journal of the Wills, initial, and, uh, unusual spelling on the word wills.

And, uh, I had the opportunity to read through a lot of this stuff. And, uh, it was very interesting. I ended up, uh, pulling together an article that didn't go to Star Long. Uh, they didn't publish it, but it went through, uh, sci-Fi Universe, I think was the name of the magazine. I don't know if that name strikes a chord with you or not.

[00:12:34] JOSH: It does.

[00:12:35] JOHN L. FLYNN: Yeah. So it was published in Sci-fi universe, and it was, um, well it was, um, supposing if, um, Lucas had stuck to his different outlines and drafts and what would the Star Wars movies look like. And so having read those, I had some preparation for, um, writing my treatment. Um, and I should also say that, um, around the same time period, I, I wrote a story about how Darth Vader became Darth Vader.

[00:13:13] JOSH: separate from this? You wrote a

[00:13:15] JOHN L. FLYNN: Yes, yes.

[00:13:16] JOSH: Oh,

[00:13:17] JOHN L. FLYNN: It, it went into one of those, uh, fanzine magazines and, and basically, he's all scarred up from his fight with, obiwan. And, um, he's taken by this mystical group of, uh, SIF Lords, and he becomes Dar theater. They put on, you know, the home, uh, uniform and everything else.

And so that went into a, um, fanzine and it was read, but a lot of Star Wars fans. And, and I, you know, I got good feedback from it. And so I wanted to incorporate some of that into my treatment. And so, you know, um, here's the genesis of a number of different things, but also let me add that, um, there was a series of stories that Isaac OV wrote.

Called the Foundation Stories. I love those as a kid. And, um, I always felt that George Lus had borrowed very liberally from the stories. And so and in, in constructing, uh, my treatment, I tried to add into, uh, the treatment. That whole sense that came from asthma, not, I had the opportunity. I met asthma on a number of different occasions.

And you know, when when you finally do become, um, an official S f w a member of Science Fiction Writers of America member, everybody then starts talking to you like you're one of them. And so it was fun being able to talk to him on a level, author to author. And honestly, uh, where I get, uh, some of my background about the society that is going on comes from there as well.

[00:15:08] JOSH: That actually makes a lot of sense. And you saying that I'm seeing it now. The, um, uh, the name, uh, uh, Janor of the city planted in, uh, Lucas's prequel films. Uh, it's called, cosent, but that whole notion of, the bright center of the universe is this metropolis city planet.

That's the capital of the galaxy. That's certainly from foundation. and yeah, and also there was something in your treatment that I thought was, sort of, you know, missing from the prequel films was this sense of, the politicking, , That it was more than just palpetine at the top. It was sort of this whole society of, conspiring and conniving and jockeying for, position and stuff. And that's, that's certainly something that now that you're mentioning foundation, I can totally see that in it.

[00:15:58] JOHN L. FLYNN: Well, you know, originally Palpatine was um, Richard Nixon, right.

[00:16:02] JOSH: yes. Yes.

[00:16:03] JOHN L. FLYNN: George, was writing at a, at the time period when, uh, Nixon, you know, was coming out as being this huge crook and, you know, somebody behind, you know, the Republican party. He was, uh, I guess the, the early, uh, runner of the MAGA party before Trump came along.

And so, um, I wanted to capture Palpetine like that. Um, and I'm not sure if that comes out or not.

[00:16:31] JOSH: No, no, I think that that definitely comes out. One of the things that, you know, from a story perspective, I understand why you know, this idea that the master manipulator politician who turns the republic into an empire, is also secretly the sort of dark Lord wizard, Sith Lord, and he kind of combines them into one.

Which I think is a, I mean, it sort of makes sense in, dramatic story terms, but it kind of does a disservice to the whole idea that, to do what the emperor did or what an opportunistic, politician, can do. It doesn't necessitate the use of dark magic of any kind.

I mean, you don't have to be some supernatural demonic force to kind of, pull one over on , the citizens of the galaxy or of the the nation. I think that actually undercuts the message a little bit of how easy it is or how susceptible, you know, democracies are to, descending into fascism.

so one thing that I liked your palpetine you really get the sense of him as a politician and as someone, that's not just power hungry because they're a Sith lord, but also the politician side I think really does come through a little bit more strongly and I appreciated that.

Um, uh, you mentioned earlier, and this is one of the questions I had for you, you had access to, you were able to read, some of George Lucas' rough drafts and story treatments and stuff. , because I think one of the reasons why it was so easy to believe that your treatment for Fall of the Republic was the genuine article was, because you do incorporate things, from Lucas's earlier drafts, like things like the Keber crystals, you do invoke the, the Journal of the Wills.

And the same way that, I think the third draft of Star Wars, but also the novelization of Star Wars, , says from the Adventures of Luke Skywalker, you say, this is from the Adventures of Obiwan Kenobi. And it just really gives it that, feeling of authenticity. so I was going to ask you if you, how you had familiarized yourself, uh, with those earlier concepts, because I know in the days before the internet, a lot harder to get your hands on that sort of stuff.

but it was actually the editor of Star Lock. You said,

[00:18:47] JOHN L. FLYNN: Yes, yes. And again, uh, Dave McDonald. Was a terrific eye. And I, you know, I think he was sort of the driving force behind this beautiful magazine. I, I, I know that I bought issue number one when it, when it hit the shelf. And, um, I, I had up to a hundred plus issues when, you know, I finally was done with it.

And, uh, Dave was a great guy. Um, uh, Caro Quinn also, I don't know if you remember Car O Quinn. He was the publisher of the magazine. It, it's, it's so funny, I was at a San Diego Comic-Con. This is about, two or three years ago, and there's a green room that, uh, um, writers and other celebrities can go. And so I, I wanted to go in there for just a, about an hour to, you know, kind of relax, uh, have a drink, maybe Nilan, you know, some of the food And Carry a Quinn was sitting there and nobody was around him.

And I got the idea that, uh, nobody remembered him. And so I, I walked up and I said, can I sit here? And he said, sure. And I said, you are Car O Quinn, aren't you? And, and, uh, he says, oh, yeah, yeah. And I said, well, you're probably not gonna remember me, but I, I wrote for Dave McDonald and I wrote a number of articles, you know, in the Star Log Magazine among others.

And, uh, we had this wonderful, um, Um, kind of renewal of, uh, our identities. I, he didn't know me, but he got a chance to know me and it was fun. Uh, so, but um, I also wanted to add too is, um, I have a PhD in psychology about my MA is in English. And so when I read, um, I'm sorry. When I saw Star Wars originally, I thought this has all of the hallmarks of some of the great pieces of literature.

Um, you know, like, um, the Three Musketeers, for example. Um, and then of course the whole Joseph Campbell thing is there. And so with those archetypes kind of in the back of my mind when I sat down to do episode three, I was trying to emulate those. Same kinds of stories that George obviously did. And, uh, um, you know, of course, you know, it wasn't my, uh, creation.

This is George's creation. I was just unlucky enough to be able to play in his world because I was a fan writer. And this was never going to go out to the population . This was just

[00:21:30] JOSH: I mean, banish the thought. How could that ever happen?

[00:21:33] JOHN L. FLYNN: it was just to go out to about a dozen of my friends for as a Christmas gift. And, uh, you know, this, um, one friend, you know, he is, uh, he was a dealer and he made lots of money from it.

Um, and, um, you know, that's how it got out into the world. We, we had a little bit of a falling out afterwards because I. you know, this is not why I gave him the gift and the other people the gift. This was just, you know, I didn't have the money that year to buy a real gift, and so I thought, I'll write a story as a gift. You know?

[00:22:07] JOSH: Yeah , I can certainly understand. Um, especially because it's your work, but there's also the copyright gray area of, you know, it's a fan work, which as I understand is, generally acceptable as long as you don't try to make money off it.

Um, so, to see someone, you know, essentially breaking the law yet reaping large rewards from doing so, I can imagine would be somewhat, galling. Um,

[00:22:31] JOHN L. FLYNN: I actually, uh, asked him to. Stop doing it. And he said, you know, I've, I've got a bunch here that I paid money for. Do you mind if I just sell these off? And so I thought, okay, okay. And then of course, he did this very same thing to my, um, star Trek treatment that I wrote. And it was similar to that, that was again, the next Christmas.

So, you know,

can't trust him.

[00:22:58] JOSH: no, I guess not. Um, I mean, again, like you say, it, must have felt good in a way you know, certainly a vote of confidence in your writing, for people to really latch onto it and for it to pass muster, as you know, the next Star Wars, I mean, for years and years, I mean, even still, it's still fooling a lot of people as an authentic document.

So I mean, I think that's, testament to, uh, the quality of, the writing. But it's also, I think has to do with something you said about, you know, when you saw Star Wars, you noticed a lot of, familiar literary elements and, sort of the sources that George Lucas was drawing upon.

And you very wisely, I think, decided to draw from those very same sources in order to continue the story. And I think that was a very canny move, a canny understanding on your part of how Star Wars operated. Uh, because I think, as is my humble opinion, I think. the most successful, new Star Wars, I think the most successful of them do return to the original inspirations and sort of riff on that.

whereas I think sometimes there's a mistake of making Star Wars, that so self-referential, that they're just making Star Wars about Star Wars. And I think that those are the ones that, that sort of fall a little flat. and I think it's because they're making the mistake of broadening The scope of what Star Wars can do, by returning to the original inspirations and sort of, taking a cue from, the same material that inspired George Lucas. And I think, you know, as you just articulated, I think, you very smartly, went that route where you,

[00:24:39] JOHN L. FLYNN: you. Yeah.

[00:24:40] JOSH: you were like, okay, what is this movie, star Wars?

What is it doing? I will do that. Not let me make something that looks like that.

[00:24:48] JOHN L. FLYNN: Yes, yes, But at the same time, I'm, I'm still working with, the characters that, George, uh, created and just trying to expand, sort of outward on, on these. I will say that when I saw, episode six, it was after I had written, my

treatment and, um, , I was, um, cheering because, George had made, Anakin Skywalker, Darth Vader the hero of the piece.

[00:25:17] JOSH: Hmm.

[00:25:18] JOHN L. FLYNN: And so, you know what, I, I always thought that the first trilogy, one, two, and three should have been subtitled. The tragedy of Anakin Skywalker. and then four, five, and six was the redemption, if you will, of Anakin Skywalker.

[00:25:35] JOSH: so. Well, that's also very interesting, because I think, first of all, that's something that, I don't think I, I really realized, even though I'm seeing the date on the cover here, but I don't think I really realize until sitting down to talk with you just now that you wrote this before you saw Return of the Jedi.

[00:25:50] JOHN L. FLYNN: Yes.

[00:25:50] JOSH: And I think it's also a testament to the writing and your understanding of how Star Wars works, that it works flawlessly with Return of the Jedi. As a part of the story. And I do think it's really interesting that you appeared to, to end up on the same wavelength as George Lucas, because I. you know, in terms of making an and Skywalker, really a hero and, redeeming him in return to the Jedi because I don't think that that was clear to a lot of people between the Empire strikes back and return to the Jedi, that that's where the story had to go. You know, I think it very easily could have gone in several other directions.

but you sort of zeroed in on this idea of Anakin Skywalker slash Darth Vader as a tragic figure , that ultimately, as we know, is, , what George Lucas was also thinking. So I think that's also one of the reasons why I think this holds up so well, nearly geez, or I guess, you know, 40 years after the fact that, um, , you know, you really, you got on the same wavelengths that George Lucas was on, and only after the first two movies.

So, so I mean, that's quite an accomplishment.

[00:27:03] JOHN L. FLYNN: Thank, thank you very much. I'll, I'll tell you, those people who received it as a gift that Christmas read it and they said, oh, you know what you should do, you should try to contact George and, you know, give him some of your ideas. Uh, because we all thought that when, um, uh, revenge of the Jedi, return of the Jedi came out, that we would begin with the first trilogy.

And again, um, every one of the magazines I read said he was gonna do it in reverse order. So it was gonna be three, two, and one,

[00:27:37] JOSH: that's actually really interesting. You know, I often. Think about, or I wonder about, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I am, I'm pretty sure that the Star Wars prequels are the first example of a true prequel. If I'm not mistaken. I don't think the word prequel even existed up until this idea that there were gonna be three new Star Wars movies, but they happened before the original Star Wars movies.

[00:28:02] JOHN L. FLYNN: You can probably, um, um, nod your head at, uh, Francis Hort Coppola because Godfather two is, is like half a prequel and half a sequel

[00:28:17] JOSH: No, that's, no, that's very true. And knowing the relationship that, Coppola and Lucas had, I mean, I wouldn't be surprised at all if, George Lucas even, unconsciously was influenced, by that story. but so yeah, so I've always thought, you know, it's a really interesting kind of creative exercise to, write a story that has to work in its own right, has to be surprising and, say something that, you know, maybe, you weren't aware yet dovetail perfectly into these preexisting stories.

So I've always thought that that was an interesting, creative exercise. but this idea, I actually think is even more interesting where you're doing the same thing, but sort of you do it three times. If you, if you were to do episode three, then episode two, then episode one. I think that would've been a very interesting way to go.

And that also answers my question, that I was gonna ask you why you started with episode three instead of with episode one. And now makes complete sense, uh, because you thought that the next movie was gonna be episode three. but on that note, there was a line in your script about, Boba Fed is charged for the murder of the Jedi Kane Star Killer.

Again, another reference to Lucas's earlier drafts, the character Kane Star Killer. Uh, but that it says in your script, the parenthetical refer to Star Wars episode two. so I was just wondering, having. Thought through a lot of what was gonna happen in Star Wars episode three. Did you come up with any ideas or did you have a sense of what the shape of, what episode two in episode one may have been?

Like, sort of in continuity with the, uh, star Wars three that you wrote?

[00:29:52] JOHN L. FLYNN: Well, you know, I actually, uh, imagined, um, these first, this first trilogy to be similar to, um, uh, again, some of these classical stories that, uh, George was probably reading. And I immediately, it comes to, uh, the Three Musketeers. Uh, so if the Jedi are the Three Musketeers, then we have this youngster who comes among them.

Uh, and, um, Dani, you know, he, he comes from a family, you know, of, uh, respected, um, swords, people, you know, his father was a, a swords master. And so I thought, uh, that, uh, Anakin was going to be not a kid in the beginning, but like a young man who comes to, uh, the Jedi and wants to be like them, but for some reason they don't take him in immediately.

But, um, he has a friendship that develops with, uh, Obi-Wan as, as of course is in the story. And, um, the character of Obi-Wan is, is like, uh, the eldest of the Three Musketeers, you know, Athos. And, um, the other two are, are there, and, and one or two, one or both of them gets ki gets killed off. As you know, the stories continue into episode three.

And so I imagine it would be something along those lines. And of course there's, there's a, a woman involved and, and she would've been, um, um, something that came between, Daran or Anakin, if you will, and Obi-Wan, you know, who knows?

[00:31:43] JOSH: Yeah. Well that's certainly something I know. , there was a lot of speculation, , when the prequels were in the process of being made. That Anakin was going to suspect that there was a relationship going on behind his back between Obiwan and Padme. and you've, just, connected the dots for me that I don't, I don't believe, I never, made the three Musketeers connection before, so what you're saying is that you envisioned, Kane Star Killer as one of that, Three Musketeers, uh, sort of triumvirate who would have, met his end

[00:32:14] JOHN L. FLYNN: exactly,

[00:32:15] JOSH: before and episode.

Oh, oh, see, I really, I like that. I think that's, I think that's very cool. what you just described is very much in line with how these events are described to the extent that they are in dialogue in the original trilogy of films, and I think some fans would argue, and I know some fans would argue that, the prequel movies that George Lucas made don't always necessarily agree with what was laid out in the original films. I mean, that mileage may vary on that, but but that's certainly a valid, I think, point of view.

I think, you know, any number of reasons, for that, the proximity, between, you know, how far removed he was from having made the originals, when he made the prequel films, that could have something to do with it. But then just also. I mean, as a writer, yourself, I think, you know, things evolve and, and sort of change in your mind and what interests you, changes and evolves I mean, it's a product of who you are as a writer when you're writing it.

so I don't know that I would call any of these deviations necessarily mistakes because I think that that, does a disservice to what the artist is actually doing and what the process of creating something actually is. Uh, but that said, you know, another reason I think your treatment still holds up is.

because it does, dovetail very nicely with the things that were said and described in the original films. and ironically, I think as fans of a work, I think perhaps we have even more reverence for what is said in those movies than the creator of them. and I guess I'm not, really crescendoing to a point here, but I guess I'll just, sort of ask you, you know, as a writer, do you sometimes see something someone else has written or created or a movie someone has made and say, you know, not what I would've done.

though I see where you're coming from and I respect that. That's what it is.

[00:34:15] JOHN L. FLYNN: Yes, exactly. And in fact, um, but the biggest complaint that I have heard from fans, and it's a, it's a complaint that I, uh, share also for episodes one, two, and three, is that, um, there's a lot of stuff in there that, um, actually takes away from the fun. of the original trilogy. And I thought if, if Lucas had, um, done away with a lot of, uh, you know, the political stuff that's in there, um, it would've been a lot more fun.

I mean, think about it. Uh, do we, do we have to know about what's going on in, in France during, um, that period of the Three Musketeers? Not really. You know, you, we can make a couple of references and then let it go. And I, again, I initially thought that that's how Lucas was gonna go. He was gonna have this, uh, you know, sort of quasi, um, you know, the Geni were gonna be like the Musketeers.

Uh, they weren't gonna be soldiers, they weren't gonna be, um, law, uh, law enforcement people. Um, but they were gonna have a, a a point in the government somehow. and it was going to be, you know, these guys are going out and they're gonna have a fun adventure. And that's how I imagined the first three films as being.

And then of course, you know, we've got this fun adventure going on in episode one, and then things get to be a little bit more serious by episode, uh, two. And then of course, you know, all hell breaks loose in, in episode three as as what I've written. So I imagine the, the original trilogy to be much more fun than it turned out to be.

Um,

[00:36:09] JOSH: Yeah. Well, you know, it is interesting, you know, in your treatment for Fall of the Republic, , the politics is there, but just the way that it's handled, it just feels like a natural outgrowth of the world and of the story. it doesn't feel.

a digression, I suppose.

[00:36:24] JOHN L. FLYNN: I mean, did we need to know all that stuff about the trade guilds? Um,

[00:36:30] JOSH: Yeah. Well, um, you know, it's funny, so we're, so we just recorded our episode on the Phantom Menace. So with, uh, the podcast, we are, uh, we're entering the, um, uh, the, the, the beginning of our, of our prequel themed coverage. Um, and, you know, we just had a long conversation about the Phantom Menace and I think what we landed on was, it's not necessarily that it was out of place.

just needed a little more refinement for it to do what it, what I think the aim was. And just unfortunately I do think a little clunky and the reason for why it's there, I don't think fully comes across in the final product.

[00:37:15] JOHN L. FLYNN: I agree with.

[00:37:17] JOSH: it's so fascinating.

You know, star Wars is one of these things where it, really is, uh, modern fairytale, it's a contemporary mythology. It's, it's this story that we all know and we all, sort of have in common. And, I love talking about it and imagining what ifs and , talking it over and over.

Obviously I have a Star Wars podcast, so, so it's, it's, it's clearly something that I, uh, I have an endless, reservoir of enthusiasm for. and what's so fascinating too, is that. It's almost like George Lucas was so much more successful in creating what he did for his own good.

because what happened was you have two decades, or not even in, your case, but like almost two decades of the entire world trying to come up with their own version of what these new movies are gonna be like. And there's no way mean, I don't care who you are, there's no way that what you come up with is going to satisfy , the legions of fans around the world who have been imagining the possibilities and the what ifs and the everything for years and years and years.

So, you know, you almost have to feel bad for the guy. But though, I don't know that I go that far, but it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's certainly, it's, it's certainly a creative challenge and, I have to imagine trying to do that must, you know, how do you, how do you create the situation so that you're free to be creative, without feeling , the weight and the, pressure of the expectations, you know,

I mean, as a writer yourself, I mean, do you have some, thoughts on that?

[00:38:50] JOHN L. FLYNN: Uh, I, I do, um, I, I write, um, um, I write sci-fi and Mystery right now, and I have a series of, uh, mystery novels that has a central character. And, um, um, I always, I always wanted to write a James Bond. It's, it's sort of like, uh, Steven Spielberg and George Lucas being on that beach talking about Indiana Jones.

Well, I wanted to write, uh, a James Vaughn story where it wasn't a, a male James Bond, a male spy. I wanted to write a female spy. And, um, when I started write, working on this, I ended up realizing I don't want her to be a spy at all. She's gonna become a detective and she's gonna be in homicide. And, you know, suddenly my story, you know, created itself more or less.

And, uh, uh, this 21st book that I was telling you about, um, I'm with a new publisher now, uh, and they're publishing all my mystery stories. And the one thing that, um, um, the publisher said to me was, we, we don't have an origin story for your detective. and I thought, oh, okay, let me write the origin story.

And so that's what I've written is, uh, that's book 21 in, in my collection of books. And, uh, it starts, uh, 20 years earlier and then comes up to date.

[00:40:17] JOSH: so

you've written, so you've done, you've gone through the same exercise. You, you have written a prequel to your own universe. Interesting.

[00:40:24] JOHN L. FLYNN: Exactly. Exactly. And so I was leading up, uh, to imagine for a moment you're sitting down to watch, uh, episode one. Okay. Now, do you remember how much fun, um, uh, star Wars, a new Hope was? I mean, to me it was all of the Saturday morning, um, uh, cartoons and cereals that I, I would watch. And so I imagine that episode one would be like, again, I hate to keep going back to the Three Musketeers, but that's, that's a story I, I absolutely adore.

And can you imagine, uh, three Jedis showing up? Okay. Kane Star Killer being won Obi-Wan Kenobi, and then there's another one. And they're saying, oh, for one, one for all. Oh, for one. I mean, and, uh, they have to go chasing out to fight bad guys with their lightsabers. I mean, and it doesn't matter that it's a trade guild or whatever.

It's just they've gotta do this, you know? And how much fun it would've been to then. Um, Anakin as, as a young man, you know, he is a teenager coming in and, oh, I'm, I'm gonna join you guys, even though I don't know everything, you know, and that's how I imagined episode one would go and, um, eventually, you know, he would be introduced to the, um, you know, to the whole order of the Musketeers and, you know, there would be a beautiful woman involved and, you know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

And, but again, I kept thinking this whole notion, they're pulling their lightsabers out and one of them says, one for all and all for one, and then they go running off to do whatever they're going to do. That's how I wanted to see episode one start.

[00:42:17] JOSH: mm.

[00:42:18] JOHN L. FLYNN: And, um, it, it, it's, it's, it's very heavy the way that episode one is right now.

It doesn't have the light, uh, fun. Touches that I would've liked,

[00:42:32] JOSH: Well, you know, what's interesting about that? Cuz I just had a very long conversation about this very subject of episode one. Um, one of the things that , we were talking about was how, the tone of episode one varies wildly. Like there's, the, very heavy, as you say, political stuff.

, and that's right alongside, you know, very, cartoonish, some might say juvenile humor. And it's sort of, moves from one. extreme in tone to another. You know, versus something like what you're describing, I think you know, is, light but not, not unserious,

[00:43:07] JOHN L. FLYNN: Yes.

[00:43:09] JOSH: where I think there's an attempt, I think in episode one, the Phantom Menace, the film to introduce some, some levity through things like the character of Jar Jar through the, you know, s some of the elements of it that seem, overtly designed for children. whereas I think, you know, another way to go and I'd be very curious what, George Lucas's thought process was. You know, it's just one of those things that. We'll just never know. But I, there is another alternative, which is to as you say, it's not, necessarily to have to lighten the heavy stuff with the juvenile stuff. but there's like a sort of a middle ground of, fun action adventure the whole way through without, you know, avoiding any of the, thornier or weightier things. I mean, your fall of the Republic treatment, it sounds like in what you're describing it, would be sort of the darkest that it ever gets

[00:44:05] JOHN L. FLYNN: Yes.

[00:44:07] JOSH: and I think, The tone that you create, the sense that you create in this, you know, it is very dark, but it still feels within the realm of what Star Wars can do and what it feels like. Um, yeah. You know, again, I think, I mean, I know I keep saying this, but I, I think that, just in, talking to you and having recently reread the Fall of the Republic script, I now have a much better, I think, understanding of why it has, persisted for so long as, you know, this sort of, curio or an object of fascination with Star Wars fans, it's because there is something about it that feels very, genuine.

It feels like a very plausible version of what Star Wars episode three may very well have been like in some other alternate universe.

[00:44:54] JOHN L. FLYNN: You know, let me, um, let me go on to say, um, um, there are a couple things in that darker part portion of my story there, that you may not have picked up. But, , I actually kill off Obi-Wan Kenobi in that, treatment, you will see that he's going through an exploding star

[00:45:17] JOSH: Oh, that's interesting.

[00:45:18] JOHN L. FLYNN: he, he's not supposed to have survived.

And so when I first saw Star Wars a, a new hole, , I imagine that Obi-Wan Kenobi was a force ghost, even though, you know, long before we came up with the idea of Force Ghost, I thought he was, you know, not not alive. I, you know, and then when Vader slices him in half, there's no body that's there.

[00:45:43] JOSH: right? Cuz he was never there. He was a force ghost the whole time. that's fascinating. You're right. I didn't pick up on that. but I'm looking at, what you wrote again, the end. Yeah. so, because I think it, the reason that that didn't land with me is because we all assume that, I mean, or I guess not we all, but, um, I assume that he stays alive because he shows up in the next movie.

[00:46:03] JOHN L. FLYNN: yeah, yeah. Of.

[00:46:04] JOSH: but, now that you're saying this, uh, yeah, he, he flies through the core of the exploding star. You do see him again in your sort of closing

[00:46:14] JOHN L. FLYNN: The,

[00:46:14] JOSH: montage

[00:46:15] JOHN L. FLYNN: yeah.

[00:46:15] JOSH: but that doesn't necessarily mean that he's in coporal form. That's inter that's very interesting. I

[00:46:22] JOHN L. FLYNN: And, um, um, and what about, um, my portrayal of Yoda, uh, for that.

[00:46:29] JOSH: I appreciated your portrayal of Yoda. I, I am of the opinion, in the Star Wars prequel films that, we got, I'm one of those who didn't love that. He, he thought, with a lightsaber. and I thought that, your portrayal of Yoda, I think preserved a lot of the mystique of the character, um, that I, think in the prequel films, he, you know, there's a, um, I don't know if this is gonna make any sense, there's like an acting, a piece of acting advice, it's something along the lines of , never show them your top, because. there's nowhere else to go, because they've seen it. And I kind of feel that way with Yoda that, he would see much more powerful if we never actually saw him with a lightsaber and see what he could do. It would be much more powerful the less we see of him.

So, so I actually, I actually really appreciated, the way that you handle Yoda. And I'm actually just now realizing again, because I only just in this conversation, realized that you had only seen the Empire strikes back when you wrote it. You hadn't seen Return of the Jedi

yet. So, so your, your depiction of Yoda is based solely on that one film.

which again, is, it, feels so in line with, the rest of the, the trilogy, it's really a testament to how well you are able to, to understand the character and what it was supposed to feel like.

[00:47:51] JOHN L. FLYNN: Well, I'll, I'll tell you something else, Josh. Uh, my, um, uh, my grandmother, um, is the person responsible for having raised me and given me the values and morals that I have. And, um, I, I saw the Empire strikes back and then she died, over the 4th of July holiday.

[00:48:14] JOSH: Hmm.

[00:48:15] JOHN L. FLYNN: saw it again just after that.

And, you know, I've seen the Empire strikes back more in a theater than I've ever seen it on television. And when I'm watching the film after her death, I'm seeing in the character of Yoda, my, my grandmother. And I am imagining, you know, this powerful individual, um, who doesn't have to use a, a light saber or anything else to, to, you know, uh, control the force.

In fact, you know, we, we see, uh, emperor palpatine, you know, he's able to shoot those. Um, uh, lightning bolts out of his hands and, and whatever else I, you know, I imagine Yoda being like that as well. You know, he doesn't resort to a lightsaber, although we, we certainly have a couple of, uh, hints and, and clues of that because in the Empire Strikes back, he, he takes a liking to Luke's a little flashlight that he has, which kinda looks like a lightsaber.

Um, but I, I just imagine a character who is beyond, um, you know, lightsabers, you know, he, he has so much more powerful than that. In fact, I, I think, um, the, the, uh, prequel trilogy, misuses, Yoda,

I would've much preferred him more like where I am in my story than, you know, like how he was used.

[00:49:42] JOSH: well, , that actually reminds me of something that I wanted to touch on Like the way that the Jedi are depicted in the prequel films, they're depicted as essentially. You know, very cozy with the government. I mean, their, their Jedi, temple is within sight of the, uh, the Senate Chamber. And he very much get the sense that they have a very close relationship with, the Senate itself.

I mean, certainly the, uh, the executive in the first, movie, the Chancellor has sent them on this mission. it is kind of interesting because I think the way that I had imagined it was something more along the lines of what you're describing where, there's sort of an, um, An organization, it's, not a part of the government. but they're sort of their, their own thing. It's a belief system. It's a way of life. And they sort of, they come and they go and they, intersect with galactic affairs, obviously at, certain points. uh, they're not part of the hierarchy, if you will.

Like, they're sort of, beside it.

[00:50:42] JOHN L. FLYNN: Yes,

Absolut.

[00:50:44] JOSH: and Yoda, I don't know. There's something very weird to me. The idea of Yoda sort of literally sitting on top of this ivory tower, you know, in a, a circle of these, I don't know. Bureaucratic monks,

[00:50:59] JOHN L. FLYNN: Yes.

[00:51:00] JOSH: you kind of want him to, to be above that.

[00:51:05] JOHN L. FLYNN: Yes. Yes.

[00:51:06] JOSH: I mean, or beside it, this whole idea that, you know, Yoda's kind of off doing his own thing and Obiwan has to seek him out for advice, right.

like in your script, that's more in line with how I imagined Yoda, the position he would have in the galaxy. It's sort of, he's not, he's not at the top of the food chain.

He doesn't have to be, he's Yoda.

Right? It's

[00:51:30] JOHN L. FLYNN: that's, yeah.

[00:51:31] JOSH: I am very curious why George Lucas went the route of, you know, really formalizing the Jedi order, you know, making them, you know, a real rigid institution, with like a, of ruling body and a very close relationship with the government.

I think there are a lot of, I think there are a lot of interesting ideas in there. It's just, I mean, again, there's what was laid out in the original trilogy and what it led one to imagine the Jedi were like, and then there's, what he decided, to do. He being George Lucas, and again, there's nothing wrong with what he did.

He can do whatever he wants. It's just I think how you envisioned. Yoda and the role of the Jedi, , felt, you know, more like what was being described in the original trilogy. And again, it's only a handful of lines in the original trilogy where they even, you know, mentioned the Jedi or anything that, happened before the movies.

So, you know, maybe we were all wrong. I don't, I don't know. Um

[00:52:30] JOHN L. FLYNN: uh, again, if I could go back to, uh, the Three Musketeers. Um, they're not in an order, if you will. They're not police, you know, they're, they're this group, um, they're the captain. Um, uh, there's a captain there that, uh, kind of oversees him. Uh, tra is his name. And, um, um, they're sort of the kings men, if you will.

But, you know, you've got a very weak king and, um, the Pope, um, is really the strong force there. So, you know, the Pope is like Palati really, if you think about it. And the Pope actually has his own men. So the Cardinal has his own guard, and they're always at odds with the, if you will, the Jedi award, the three Musketeers.

So that's, that's more how I had imagined, uh, um, how the STH would be with the Jedi and, and so on. I mean, they, they, they add all of this mystery and stuff behind the sift that I don't think needed to be there at all, but, okay. It's there.

[00:53:34] JOSH: No, I mean, just even in this conversation, you know, there's a version of The Jedi where, you know, someone who learns how to wield the force. , which is this like really far out sort of idea, like you could imagine, , to be a Jedi is like a very a countercultural thing. It's like it's still something that, your average galactic citizen, really has trouble wrapping their mind around.

It's like, wait, you can, you know, levitate objects and you can, mind trick people. It's sort of, um, there's a version of it where they are sort of on the outside looking in and they, get involved when, you know, either there's a moral imperative or there's some sort of a situation, but yet they sort of stay on the outside and kind of do their own thing.

And then it's interesting, uh, because in that scenario, when you have Obiwan talking to Luke in Star Wars, and you, have, , the other voice of his Uncle Owen saying that Wizard's just a crazy old man. You don't wanna listen to him. He's actually not wrong.

[00:54:37] JOHN L. FLYNN: That's right,

that's right. Think, think about, um, uh, George Lucas, he's coming out of the sixties,

[00:54:45] JOSH: Exactly

[00:54:46] JOHN L. FLYNN: and, um, who are these, who are these Jenna guys? They're, they're hippies, if you will.

[00:54:51] JOSH: exactly. Exactly. And then, yeah, no, yeah. So, so I think you're actually articulating something, , that I haven't, , been able , to articulate myself. But this idea that the Jedi, To my mind, there's something wrong about, the Jedi, being so involved in, the mainstream order of

things.

Being a part of the status quo and sort of sitting on top there's something about that that just, feels at odds with how they are spoken about and how, you know, how we understand their beliefs.

I mean, frankly

[00:55:23] JOHN L. FLYNN: Sure, sure. Could I, uh, suggest something to you? Um, this was something that I always liked from the Superman films.

Um, when Joel Tucks, uh, to, um, Kelle for the first time, he says, you know, you're, you're not supposed to go in and change anything. Okay. Let your actions move others. And so I, I always like that, uh, speech that, um, uh, father gives to son there.

And I imagine the geni as being like, that they were not supposed to go in and, and, and be, uh, an army, if you will. Um, they're supposed to inspire others to action.

[00:56:09] JOSH: No, that's a very good point. And I think, you know, I think this is an idea that's, present in the films as they exist though. it still doesn't contradict anything that we're saying about this whole idea of General Kenobi. Years ago, you served my father in the clone wars, like. there is this idea that, you know, when the Jedi have to become generals, things have gotten really, really bad.

Right? so I think it's sort of, speaks to, the dire state of affairs and the galaxy that, the Jedi, they do have to become the army because things are so desperate.

[00:56:46] JOHN L. FLYNN: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm.

and obiwan, when I was thinking about the character o obviously we know him as Ben. Okay. So he's kinda like the common man, if you will. The, the man in the gray flannel suit. Okay? Everybody wears a gray flannel suit. All right? But, um, initially when I was looking at his name, Obi.

I was thinking, not Juan, w a n I was thinking one o n e. And so, you know, I was mistaken myself. I was thinking that Obi-Wan was maybe a clone of the original Obie, whoever that was. And so, you know, there, you know, my, I, I don't have that in my treatment, but that was something that I was thinking about when I was writing my treat.

[00:57:37] JOSH: do you wanna know what is so fascinating to. we also had this, discussion that, um, you know, the line, you fought in the Clone Wars is so evocative of so much, so much more than I would argue. You could even, really satisfyingly depict in a film. One wonders if maybe you lose something when you actually, commit these stories to film.

it's sort of a perverse joke and it sort of always was from, the original Star War. I know on original release, I never said episode four. though I think, he had wanted to have an episode number, but it was decided that it would, be too confusing and like to just, dispense with all that because this movie's already, it's already wacky enough.

[00:58:24] JOHN L. FLYNN: Mm-hmm.

[00:58:26] JOSH: but this idea that it's implicit in the nature of the movie as, seeming like it's part of a Saturday morning serial. And also with the episode number starting at four, this idea that something happened before, but we're never gonna tell you what it is, uh, because that's, sort of not the point of the exercise.

The point of the exercise is to fire your imagination, make you wonder. What it was that happened, it's for you to come up with the story of what happened, before. And in that sense, I think that Star Wars three Fall of the Republic by John L. Flynn is the most authentic Star Wars you can get.

[00:59:00] JOHN L. FLYNN: Thank you. Thank you. That's very nice of you to say that. , do you know, um, one of the master strokes in Steven Spielberg's Jaws is you don't see the shark that much, mostly because the shark didn't work. Okay. So I, I think, um, working off what you just said, um, I think it's better that we don't see the clone wars, okay?

And in fact, uh, the clone wars, I, I was bored to death by, you know, what they produced, um, in the name of the Clone Wars. I'd rather not have had all of that and had that left more to my imagination because my imagination's gonna fill in blanks that, you know, are gonna be 10 times better than what was ever come up with on the screen.

Uh, are are you on, on the same page with me?

[00:59:56] JOSH: No. Yeah, it's very true. You know, George Lucas, he often says in interviews that, He had to wait so long to make the prequel trilogy because the technology wasn't there to realize his, his vision.

And I think for him that is true. But I think that there's something to be said for the restrictions of not being able to show everything because it forces you to leave more to the imagination, to be more evocative with what is not shown, what is not said.

[01:00:29] JOHN L. FLYNN: Exactly. Exactly.

[01:00:31] JOSH: and one of the interesting things to me about, you know, the prequel trilogy is like, they're, they're constantly, you know, you know, talking about the nature of the force and you have this introduction of the LORs, these,

uh, uh, the sort of, you know, biological explanation for the force.

And there are ways that I can, you know, rationalize that, to sort of, make it fit, within my conception of what Star Wars is. But at the end of the day, everything you need to know about Star Wars, the backstory and the force is still all said in that first movie.

Like, the way that they talk about the clone wars, like it's all contained in that short conversation.

It's just all, I mean, that's all you need to know about it.

[01:01:11] JOHN L. FLYNN: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:01:13] JOSH: And again, there's a universe where, uh, the prequel films are never made and Star Wars is always, starting in media arrest, I think is the term. Where, The movie is demanding of you, the viewer, the audience to imagine, come up with what happened in one, two, and three. I think that there's there's something sort of, uh, you know, lovely and, and and charming about, uh,

[01:01:37] JOHN L. FLYNN: that. I love that. I agree with that.

[01:01:39] JOSH: Yeah. But that's not the world that we live in. But I mean, I mean, not just life

[01:01:42] JOHN L. FLYNN: And, and I will say that, um, uh, Lawrence Kasdan, um, uh, one of my favorite films is Raiders of the Lost Ark. Lawrence Kaden is such a genius and, um, he, he, he actually builds that, um, the world building for Star Wars right there in the second film. And, um, you know, a lot of what Lucas talks about, uh, Lawrence Kaden actually imagines, uh, for us on the screen.

And I, I will say that that's some of the best writing, um, that I have ever seen. Um, a, a, again, I don't mean to dismiss, uh, a new hope it that's a work of genius all in unto itself. , but when it comes to the Empire Strikes back, I think that's the stronger of the two films. If, if you ask if, if you ask me that, just as I would say that the Godfather part two is the stronger of the, uh, three films that are there.

And, um, and, and Lauren Kaston, um, you know, I don't think he's gotten all of the credit that he really deserves from all of that world building that he did there. And he does, uh, a good job for Lucas. I mean, Lucas gets credit for the story, but Lawrence Kaston is really the one who imagines all of that stuff there.

And it's, it's a terrific film. And I, and I love the fact that, uh, the second film, um, actually, uh, film number five ends on that, um, you know, cliffhanger the way that it does.

[01:03:19] JOSH: Hmm. No. Yeah, there's, there's, there are so many things about The Empire Strikes Back that are extraordinary. I think it's , the best Star Wars movie for so many reasons. And it's also, in my humble opinion, sort of along the lines of what you're saying, had the Empire Strikes Back not been as fantastic as it was, I don't think Star Wars would have gone on to spawn, so many other films and stories and still be something that we're talking about.

, the way that we are now. I think it, um, may have been. the original film and then like a couple of follow up films that, never quite captured the same magic. Um, and we would all be talking about what a brilliant film the original Star Wars is, and we still are. but the Empire strikes back, I think, really is what made Star Wars into the timeless, , franchise, if you wanna use that word, that it is now it took what was laid out in the original Star Wars and it showed everybody what you could do in this universe.

[01:04:24] JOHN L. FLYNN: And I, and I must tell you that after having seen the Empire Strikes back, of course I'm like every other Star Wars fan out there. I couldn't wait for the third one to come out. And of course, uh, it was in the light of having just seen, um, uh, the Empire strikes back that I begin writing my treatment.

[01:04:44] JOSH: Exactly. Yeah. So that's, um, you know, one of the themes that is emerging as I do this podcast, is the degree to which Star Wars really inspires creativity in people. Um, so, , before we wrap up here, I do want to, , highlight, , some of your other work. I know that. you've written, both fiction and non-fiction. And, I dipped, my toe. I read, um The Jovian dilemma,

and I enjoyed it very much.

So I'm just wondering for someone who, wants to familiarize themselves with your work, what would you recommend somebody, Reid, if they're a sci-fi fan, if they're a Star Wars fan, what is something, you would hand them and say, start there.

[01:05:29] JOHN L. FLYNN: well, um, I think The Jovian Dilemma is, I'm, I'm glad you mentioned that. When I sat down to write that, I wrote that as a, , film treatment first, which is so funny. And, uh, I've, I've since produced a screenplay, , before I produced the novel itself. And so, it is a, uh, story that, , has nothing to do with the Star Wars universe at all.

It takes place really in our own universe. I, I wanted to write a hardcore science fiction story and, um, uh, the Star Wars, uh, stuff that it's more fantasy than hardcore. I also wanted to imagine an alien species, not at all, like the ones that we see in Star Wars, but an alien species based upon the environment that they're living in.

And so if you notice that, you know, the story is about a space station that is orbiting Jupiter. And Jupiter, it's mostly gas. And these creatures live in that gaseous environment, and they've been living there for, uh, billions of years. And, um, you know, they've not to humans at all. In fact, the story is more than anything else, a a first contact story between us and them.

But, you know, it's not like they, they speak colloquial English like they do in the Star Wars films. They have to figure out how, how do you end up speaking with, an alien species, particularly one that is just, you know, there, there's no, , resemblance whatsoever to human beings. that was the kind of story that I sent out to write, and it evolved, started as a short story, then it went to a screen treatment, then a screenplay, and then finally the novel.

And, my agent tried to sell the, the screen treatment and, um, the string treatment, , ended up winning, a prize in, uh, film competition for screen. And, um, I was very happy about that, but we couldn't get, um, a production company interested in it. cuz obviously when, when you're writing screen treatments or screenplays, you wanna see this made into a movie.

And so, uh, and then I turned to writing my mystery novels. And my mystery novels are all about this, , one character. It's a female character, unusual for a male, writing a female character, but she is, uh, a homicide detective and she gets, um, you know, into all sorts of things that are above her pay grade, as it were.

Uh, and if you're interested, um, my best seller of that is, , Murder on Air Force One. And so I, if you wanna start reading, uh, John Flynn works, uh, that, um, what's interesting about that is I also wrote that as a screenplay. and I've had that option. But, you know, it's sat there throughout the pandemic and who knows if it'll ever get made into a film, but, you know, uh, we as writers we just gotta keep writing cuz that's, uh, in our blood, so to speak.

So,

[01:08:39] JOSH: Exactly the, um, by the way, for anyone who wants to, check out, either of the books that, Dr. Flynn has just mentioned, you can go to his website, John L. Flynn Flynn with a y.com. I'm also interested in, uh, some of your, your non-fiction. you know, as you said earlier, you wrote a lot of articles for, Starlog and other, , sci-fi publications. but you've written some volumes on, the production of, , certain sci-fi films. Uh, if you could mention some of the,

[01:09:09] JOHN L. FLYNN: Oh, happy.

[01:09:10] JOSH: things that you've worked on

[01:09:12] JOHN L. FLYNN: Happy to. I I will say that, um, my most recent book, so I, I just turned, um, a manuscript into my agent, uh, that will, that will become book 21. But my book before that was about Angel Pettyjohn. do you know who Angel Petty John is?

[01:09:29] JOSH: From the, from The Gamesters of Triskelion.

[01:09:32] JOHN L. FLYNN: Yes, yes. That's a favorite episode of mine. I actually, uh, met this woman at a Star Trek convention and, um, uh, she needed, uh, some serious help. She had her stuff spread over a table and she needed change. Oh my goodness. And, uh, You know, from that first day, um, we just became fast friends. And, um, she died in, uh, 1992.

She had cervical cancer and on her deathbed, uh, after we had been together for the last 10 years of her life, um, on her deathbed, she says, you know, John, you know me, um, better than anyone. Um, and I've seen your writing in the different magazines. She says, uh, would you tell my story someday? And it took me 28 years to research your story.

Of course, I'm not doing that all at once. I'm doing that in between other writings that I'm doing. But, um, uh, she, she lived an incredible life. She was in 40 movies. She did 15 different TV series and, and she had a career, uh, as a showgirl in, in Las Vegas as well. , she was, Quite an extraordinary woman, and I was, uh, very, very proud to have, um, uh, gotten to know her and, and to been, I, I was her confidant, I guess, if you will.

And, what's interesting about Angela Pettijohn is, um, she gave birth to Elvis Jr. She and, uh, Elvis Presley hooked up and, um, she had, uh, Elvis Jr.

She gave him up for adoption, but he's, he is now, uh, you know, in his fifties, he's a performer. Uh, in fact, he is, uh, won I think three or four, uh, platinum albums, uh, from his singing. and I'm actually, uh, going to a concert of his in Port Charlotte, Florida in a couple of days.

And he, he asked me to come and, and sell copies of the book because, uh, his story is also told in that book.

, he wrote the, uh, forward to the book and then toward the end of the book, there's more about, , him as, uh, a performer and how he came into being. Uh, so,

[01:11:48] JOSH: So is that, book available now or is it forthcoming?

[01:11:51] JOHN L. FLYNN: oh no, it's out there. You can buy it on, amazon, uh, dot com. In fact, um, you know, all 20 of my books are on amazon.com and that one's called, uh, I, I had originally called it, uh, the Star Trek Siren, but Paramount wouldn't let me use the word Star Trek in my title. So it ended up , becoming, uh, the sci-fi siren.

[01:12:12] JOSH: I think the sci-fi siren, still works. I mean, I feel badly you said that she was in 40 movies and, 15 TV series and all these things. And, you know, you mentioned her name and I'm thinking of this one episode of Star Trek. you know, when in reality she, um, from what I know of her, she did so much more than that.

So I think that is definitely, next up on my reading list, I'm, I'm very excited to, uh, to dive in.

[01:12:37] JOHN L. FLYNN: were you ever a, uh, fan of, uh, get smart?

[01:12:40] JOSH: uh, yes, I was, I actually, recently started watching it again for the first time since, I don't know, since the, 1990s, uh, when it was on TV all the time. , she was on GetSmart.

[01:12:51] JOHN L. FLYNN: Yeah. Do you remember the character, uh, Charlie Wat?

[01:12:54] JOSH: Was that at Angelique Pettyjohn.

[01:12:56] JOHN L. FLYNN: Yeah. Yeah. So the character of Charlie Watkins is, uh, is um, a man and it's, it's literally a man and he's a master of disguise. And so his disguise is this beautiful, gorgeous woman

[01:13:11] JOSH: Oh, that's funny.

[01:13:13] JOHN L. FLYNN: and that's Angelique . And you know, it's funny, she got more mail than, um, Maxwell Smarts. Uh, her name is 99 I think,

on this show. And, uh, so 99, uh, was not happy with the fact that Angelique got so ma so much more male than her. And she wasn't really a regular on the show. She did like four or five episodes.

And so 99 says, you've gotta cut her. She can't get more mail than me , but you know, she was on Batman and, and uh, just so many other TV shows. , she even was on, um, hill Street Blues. Um, she played a, prostitute on Hill Street Blues. So, you know, she, she had, uh, quite a career. and what's interesting, while she was doing the, um, autographing at the Star Trek conventions, and you've been the Star Trek convention, so you know about how they do all that autographing stuff.

She, um, she had these, um, producers and writers coming up to her and saying, You know, I, I saw you on Star Trek and I always loved you on Star Trek. And she would say, well, thank you very much. And, and then they would say, what are you doing now? And she would say, well, you know, I'm, I'm doing this autographing and whatever.

And they would offer her parts in their movies. Now it's small, you know, she had a bunch of tiny roles. Um, but, uh, you know, I, I mean, um, she had like a renaissance in the eighties, uh, by doing all these small roles.

[01:14:47] JOSH: Oh, from, from her Star Trek notoriety. So

[01:14:50] JOHN L. FLYNN: yes, exactly.

[01:14:51] JOSH: and then, and then give her, oh no. Yeah. That's lovely. Yeah, I mean, that just, I mean, that just goes to show how, how work begets work and you never know what the thing is that that is, uh, gonna become, you know, your calling card, what's gonna open that, that next door.

I think that's kind of the nature of, of any creative industry or the entertainment industry. You just gotta, I mean, as you said, you keep, you keep plugging away because you never know what the thing is gonna be. the thing that resonates for whatever reason.

[01:15:23] JOHN L. FLYNN: Now, you know, early on in, um, in my career, I did of course the, the Star Wars piece, uh, the Fall of the Republic, and it, it continues to haunt me, but not in a bad way. Uh, I'm always happy to talk about it with, uh, with fans and, you know, somebody will come racing up and say, will you sign this for me? And I'm thinking, well, sure, I never got paid for it, but I'll sign it for you.

[01:15:49] JOSH: no, that's really lovely. I was, I was gonna close, by asking you, how it feels to have written yourself into the Wars story, but that seems, as good an answer as.

[01:16:01] JOHN L. FLYNN: I, I gotta tell you, I, I love the Star Wars films. Um, I've seen them so many times, and of course, the, the Middle Trilogy, um, you know, the other ones are okay, but I'd love that middle trilogy. And, um, you know, if I go, go to my grave and the best thing that they can say about me is I, I wrote Follow the Republic.

Well, I guess that's not a bad thing, is it?

[01:16:26] JOSH: Absolutely not. No, definitely not. Well, Dr. Felina, I really do want to thank you very much for, being so gracious with your time and for taking the time to chat with me about this. It was really, it was really a lot of fun. I'm really glad I was able to, find you in that. you're as, lovely to talk to as I hoped.

[01:16:42] JOHN L. FLYNN: Well, I had a lot of fun too. Thank you very much.

[01:16:46] JOSH: And again, once again, anything you want to know about Dr. John L. Flynn and his work can be found by visiting his website, john l flynn.com. Again, that's Flynn with a y. Transcripts of this episode and all of our other episodes are available at trash com, pod.com, and we are trash com pod across all social media and we will see you on the next one.