Oct. 4, 2022

Fighting for Real: ANDOR Episodes 1-4

Fighting for Real: ANDOR Episodes 1-4

We are wowed by the first episodes of ANDOR

What if Star Wars grew up alongside us? You'd get a show exactly like STAR WARS: ANDOR. We talk fascism, punchable faces, and why the devil is in the minutiae.

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[00:00:00] JOSH: Welcome to Trash Compactor. I'm Josh, and with me today is Bracey.

[00:00:06] BRACEY: Hello.

[00:00:07] JOSH: Mickey.

[00:00:08] MICKEY: Hey.

[00:00:09] JOSH: And Murray

[00:00:10] MURRAY: Oh, hello.

[00:00:12] JOSH: Murray, I feel like the cat's out of the bag since your appearance on Secret Origins, but I'm still not gonna call you Josh, cuz it'll just be too confusing.

[00:00:19] MURRAY: Hey. It's all good.

[00:00:22] JOSH: But I just want the internet to know that your name is also Josh. It's not a secret.

[00:00:29] MURRAY: Now my whole witness protection thing is blown and, great. I'm just a regular schnook.

[00:00:35] JOSH: Today on the Trash Compactor we are reacting to the first four episodes of the new Disney Plus series, Star Wars: Andor, and let's just dive right into it. Bracey overall thoughts of the first four episodes of Andor?

[00:00:49] BRACEY: It feels like the show that I know I've been waiting for, so, yeah, I've really enjoyed the first four episodes. Nice slow burn. Loving it.

[00:01:04] JOSH: Murray, overall thoughts?

[00:01:05] MURRAY: So this is the show that I didn't know how much I wanted it until I was watching it, I think outta everybody in Trash Compactor. I was probably looking forward to it the least amount for no reason other than I'm just like, all right, I'm getting a little burnt out on Star War stuff. But then it's like a Star Wars show that is not about the Skywalkers, it's not about any of that.

[00:01:33] And so it's like so refreshing and we'll get into it, but like the fact that it's just like a lived in world I love, but what I'm nervous about is I don't know how I thought things worked in the overall universe of Star Wars, but this like, all the things that was like was blowing my mind.

[00:01:55] It's kinda like, yeah, of course, like, the Empire didn't all live on ships. Of course they had a place that they like lived and worked. And I was like, Oh yeah, I guess that's true. But to me they're always just living on like ships and like destroyers, like that's like the whole Empire. So the fact that there's a bureaucracy, on like a planet, I was like, Oh fuck, this is crazy.

[00:02:13] Like little things, there's a million different languages that we see in Star Wars, but it never occurred to me that there's going to be a character where English is their second language and that's like wild to me. I don't know why I like, because like they just understand like Wookiee or whatever.

[00:02:31] Or in like Solo, he spoke it and it was the dumbest part of the movie, but still like, but everyone just kind of just understands and then they've responded in English and then the other person understands. But the fact that like Cassian, it's his second language, that's something I've never thought about in Star Wars and it's just really dope.

[00:02:50] And so little things like that. I'm like, man, what did I think of Star Wars? I didn't think that like the Empire like had a like a place like everyone just spoke English. I never thought about like this extended universe.

[00:03:07] JOSH: So that's actually something really interesting because I heard a number of people say this, make this observation after the first three episodes, was that it really felt like an old school Star Wars novel. Like in terms of the world, the world building of it, and how, like it didn't feel like -- like something with the novels was that depending on the author, like you got all these very different vibes from what it could be. And like, you know, the world felt not the same every time.

[00:03:36] That combined with the slower, pacing of it and like the focusing on character moments, like, you know, really leaving room, It's like, it's like really all about character, much more so than any other, what I'm starting to call filmic Star Wars has, really done before.

[00:03:55] But before we get too deeply into it, Mickey?

[00:03:57] MICKEY: Yeah.  I was gonna say, I wouldn't say it reminds me of the novels, it very to me specifically reminds me of the comic books. Specifically probably like the X-Wing comic books that to me were the ones that really got most into detail of like the day to day living in the Star Wars universe.

[00:04:14] And especially like, again, with the Empire thing, there was one about the actual like TIE fighters, not the X-Wing pilots. But anyway, that's leading to my thing, which is I love those as a kid and I love this. Um, I think it's great.

[00:04:31] It's almost the type of thing where like, I feel like I'm now finally the dog that caught the bone of everything I wanted out of filmic Star Wars. And I'm kind of like, boy, like, this was amazing, but now I'm almost like, Oh, but is this it? This is as good as it gets.

[00:04:47] But, but you know, like we can get more into it. I'm like, but is that worth it? I don't know if that worth is the right way, but I mean, this is amazing piece of Star Wars or not of fiction by Tony Gilroy. I'd say like, I'm very proud of, like a story I always tell is the second I saw the Rogue One trailer, I instantly knew that they all -- spoiler alert -- and it wasn't based on like, Oh, whoa, there, what happened? Cause obviously, you know, like got the plans. No, it's like this is a specific riffing on like the men on the mission movie.

[00:05:22] And then I feel like in a similar face, this is a prequel. I had the same thing when I saw this.

[00:05:25] I was instantly like, oh, this is Wind That Shakes the Barley, um, Irish IRA troubles movie set in Star Wars universe with a little bit of Michael Clayton as like the side too. And yep, that's what it was exactly.

[00:05:38] MURRAY: And Moses from the Old Testament. Cuz it's definitely riffing on his story too, and I'll get into that later. But it absolutely is.

[00:05:45] MICKEY: I think a thing the creators doing with the show too, is that they're telling an actual like Latin American story, like type of thing. They've introduced the concept I think of within the humans an idea of like, you know, a race, or, you know, type of people and telling a very moving story about that.

[00:06:04] I think it's clearly building up to that, and it's funny because like  they're nailing it too.

[00:06:13] MURRAY: Well I was gonna say that's probably why the ratings are low. Like before we started recording, you were mentioning  it's got like a low rating. It's like, Oh yeah, no, because people hate anything that's not just like straight white male stories these days and they just like shut it down.

[00:06:31] JOSH: So I'm not sure if that's actually true, if that's representative of the larger opinions at large, because like what I've been seeing on my feed is pretty much overwhelmingly positive and kind of echoing the sentiments that, that, you were saying, Mickey.

[00:06:49] But yeah, like for me, I have so many thoughts. Like, I mean, first of all, the show is just a really fantastic, well-written, well-acted, well-shot, like well done show.

[00:07:01] MURRAY: Yeah. The shooting and the locations are incredible.

[00:07:06] JOSH: Yeah, no, I mean, a friend of mine, Matt Barbot, who, I'm going t, probably refer to a couple times on this podcast. He's a Puerto Rican writer and a huge Star Wars fan. And one of the first things he said to me was like, This is so good. It like transcends Star Wars.

[00:07:21] MURRAY: Yes. Yeah. No, it's a hundred percent. Yeah.

[00:07:25] JOSH: Yeah, because like it's not just good Star Wars, it's just good without the qualifier. It's actually great.

[00:07:30] MURRAY: Because it's not like a Star Wars thing, they just, Oh, there's lasers in it, but it's not, it's like what Mickey was saying. It's something different. It just takes place in a galaxy far, far away.

[00:07:41] JOSH: No, absolutely. And you know, one of the things that I think is really striking about it is that like, this is really a show about fascism and oppressed peoples, right?

[00:07:53] MURRAY: Yes. That's a huge thing for me. Yeah.

[00:07:56] JOSH: Like in a way that the other Star Wars movies, like -- like even Rogue One just really sort of gestured at, like this one is really about what the experience of living under fascism, what it looks and feels like,

[00:08:11] and

[00:08:12] BRACEY: on a, on a galactic level, like, Yeah. Not even just the minutia, but like those moments where you get to see what does a planet being raped of its resources look like? And then like actually seeing that at a scale that we could not have ever visualized really before.

[00:08:33] And you get to really just like see it like, this is what you're heading towards, man.

[00:08:37] MURRAY: I have a question. Because it was kind of related to that. So when it does the flashbacks right to Andor as a kid now, what is your impression? Is this like, are they almost like, kind of like an untouched society and so like when they see like the ships and stuff like that, is it like mind blowing to them or is that commonplace to them?

[00:09:01] MICKEY: No, I think it's a Lord of a Flies situation going.

[00:09:04] MURRAY: Oh, is that -- okay.

[00:09:06] MICKEY: I get the sense that these are like kids who are abandoned or

[00:09:09] MURRAY: Oh, okay.

[00:09:10] BRACEY: That's how I was taking it.

[00:09:11] MURRAY: Cuz I was seeing some metal, I was seeing some threads, so I was like, all right, so technology is not foreign to them, but like, I didn't know, like is it like Apocalypto when the Spanish are coming, and they're just like the first time they're ever seeing stuff that's not of their culture?

[00:09:28] MICKEY: There's something going on there. There's I think a mystery we're gonna find out about, about where these people, cause you, they're all kids too, basically.

[00:09:34] MURRAY: Yeah.

[00:09:34] MICKEY: So something happened there, and it's gonna be related to like that mining thing. Um, to me, I almost wonder if they're gonna play a theme of like, the Empire's doing its thing, but the Republic did the same thing before that or something.

[00:09:45] MURRAY: Well, they kind of had that thing where they were just fighting themselves, right? Like that's what Andor was saying that like he was in the military and then, uh, I don't know the, all the characters' names, but Skarsgård was like, Yeah, no, they had you fighting each other.

[00:10:01] JOSH: God, he, he's so fucking good. Like the character and the actor. I don't think I have remotely negative thing to say about anything in the show except for the fact that, that it like...might be too good.

[00:10:14] MICKEY: No, that's it.

[00:10:17] MURRAY: It's gonna be the end of Star Wars. Yeah.

[00:10:20] JOSH: Well, so, so it's an interesting thing because, Bracey, you posted something in the Discord a few weeks ago, that was a clip of a conversation that George Lucas had with the late Robin Williams about how and why fans hated Jar Jar so much.

[00:10:37] And then, Mickey, I don't know if you linked to something, but you kind of responded like, what if Star Wars grew up with us, or something?

[00:10:45] MICKEY: Oh, I didn't even post that as a relation to Bracey's thing like that. That just happened to work out. I didn't even think about that.

[00:10:53] JOSH: Oh, well regardless, those two things really made me start thinking the same thing. It's like, well, is the reason the fan reaction to Jar Jar so extreme because the movies didn't grow up with the fans? And then you asked, or you posed the question like, you know, what is, what would Star Wars be like if it actually grew up with the fans?

[00:11:14] And I think what you would get would be this exact show. Like, this is what Star Wars would look like if it "grew up" quote unquote.

[00:11:21] MICKEY: No, yeah.

[00:11:23] BRACEY: And yeah, and you know it from the opening title sequence, you know it from the first shot being pointed up at the rain and the light and just the pacing -- before you get into the pacing. Like, I don't know, something about it just was just -- and then just the first moment where everything hinges on an encounter that it's just like...this is so well set up.

[00:11:51] Like I was just watching it again, before everybody jumped on, and I was just like, this is, I, like, I lived for that, that moment where he realizes what he has to do and he pulls the gun and he shoots the guy like you, uh, spoiler alert, but like, that dramatic moment was like, this is not a kid show.

[00:12:20] This is for all those people who grew up, matured in the form of storytelling that they're looking for and wanted to see it reflected in Star Wars. And I was just so happy, cuz I'm like, I've come home. I've come home baby.

[00:12:39] MURRAY: When he pulled the trigger, I was like, Oh shit. Like I really wasn't expecting that I, where I was expecting a thing where he tries to wrestle the gun out of his hand and then that's like, I didn't expect like cold blooded murder. Like, Cuz that's what it, like, it's, I mean, that's what i, is.

[00:12:56] BRACEY: Yeah. But it was such a perfect moment because it really like ties you in immediately to like, these are the stakes. Like, that's, Oh, like already, like these are the stakes. Like he wasn't supposed to be here and he was, and like he wasn't doing anything legitimate. And now he's in a situation that like he has to follow through on something or else it's his life is, is done for.

[00:13:25] MURRAY: Yeah. It's like a really shitty crossroads, but it's a crossroads all the same. Like, what would you do in that situation if you accidentally killed somebody in a fight that they started and the only other witness around, like you could get rid of? Like what do you do? Do you face the music or do you like run, like it's a really interesting dilemma and then you're just like, fuck. Like, this is, it's a great, like, origin for this character.

[00:13:53] MICKEY: What I'm saying is about this being a character show. That's why, like we're off the bat, we're like, This is why he's gonna be a Rebel. This is what's gonna make him like, he's the guy who makes that decision.

[00:14:03] BRACEY: See, but the funny thing is, to me, the first read that I seeing that scene was like, it wasn't like, this is what made him a Rebel. Honestly rewatching it that moment for me was, no, he is already on. It's not that he became a Rebel in that moment. His life, he has to make choices that always dance on the margin. And this was a moment where he had to be on the margin and he got caught in a bad situation that made him, like, forced his hand. Like he had no choice in that moment. It was there. His life was forfeit or he makes that choice. He was already he and watch.

[00:14:45] When you re-watch it, that tension is there. When you start to realize, the other guy realized before he realized, Oh, shit. Like that guy dknows that they were in an illegitimate place, and what he just did, he can't get out of. And I'm the only one who could tell anyone who this guy is. Like, would you start to see those stakes happening that they let that play out in the background?

[00:15:14] MURRAY: Yeah. No, it was nuts. It was a high tension.

[00:15:17] JOSH: Well something also about that scene, and also the sequence at the end of the third episode. Something that my friend Matt pointed out that the show nails, is what interactions are like with cops,

[00:15:32] like in particular. That sequence when they have the warrant to arrest Cassian whatever, how at every single juncture, they are the ones who are creating an escalation. They are assuming that everyone there is a potential enemy, and they are assuming the worst.

[00:15:51] And they are escalating the situation at every opportunity. And it's sort of like that mindset, that us against them, you know, this is a war zone. Like, you know, we are in a war with these people, really reflects a lot of communities' experience with the cops in this country.

[00:16:12] And I was like, if you think about it, You know, like if you go through  that sequence, they are like frothing at the mouth. Like they want to fight and they think that they don't have to respect the rights of any of these people.

[00:16:30] It was really interesting. The perceptions of a lot of, these characters, like, the moment at the beginning that we were just talking about with, Cassian where, he shoots the guy in cold blood, but like, he doesn't really have much of a decision. There was some tweet that went viral and I don't really know this girl', politics, and I don't wanna make too many assumptions, but she was like, Let me get this straight. The good guy is the guy who shoots someone and murders him in cold blood. And the bad guy is the one who's like, you know, following the rules and like, trying to do the right thing and like blah, blah, blah.

[00:17:06] And it's kind of like, authority and rules are not de facto good and like you know, it's gonna be really interesting, because like after seeing these first four episodes, it's clear that this show is really interested in making a political show about fascism and oppressed people and really trying to render it in as realistic way as possible. And I have a feeling that some of the audience is gonna have a similar experience to people who watched The Boys on Amazon when they all of a sudden realize that, like, they're the baddies.

[00:17:40] MURRAY: Well, that's the thing, since Star Wars one, everyone's kind of like been lulled into thinking as if we're not rooting for the terrorists the whole time in their, in their world, right? Like in the world of the Empire and everybody, and we saw that a little bit in Obi-Wan with the Mole guy that is like helping the Empire because he thinks that all these Rebels are are terrorists.

[00:18:01] And it's like from a certain viewpoint, they're not wrong. And so it's just like, there was never really. Cause you get lu into thinking that it's a war, right? Like, so everybody that like Luke and Han and Leia kill is like casualties of war, but it's like, no, it's not actually a war. It's just like troops coming out to stop and uprising.

[00:18:21] So it's not like two side equal sides in a battle. And so it's like, it is a little bit uncomfortable when you're faced so clearly like that. Like, oh, well in a lot of ways I am rooting for the bad guys. But it doesn't feel like that because we have like this like, you know, 5,000 foot view of like the bird's eye view of the whole situation.

[00:18:41] We know how it starts, we know how it ends, but it's like, no, we're rooting for the bad guys. Like, and that's, you know, in any sort of occupied land, like the people that are rising against the established people that are occupying them, like they feel that they're the bad people. But it's like, no, if you are, if you are the occupied, you're like, No, you're the good.

[00:19:02] You're worth the rebel alliance. We're trying to take our land back, et cetera, et cetera. So, but I think it's jarring because this is actually showing you that.

[00:19:11] MICKEY: Yeah. The, the other issue with the tweet too, is that it's not just like, Oh, who's the good guys and bad guys, but like, someone else like to a related tweet that was like similar, but really it's just like, do we forget the word protagonist and antagonist, like, Andor doesn't have to be the good guy.

[00:19:26] He's just a protagonist. And the point is, and I think like it'll be interesting to see if they go with this is like any rebellion even against a colonial or fascist type of thing, the people who are gonna be involved in the rebellion are gonna be those who live on the margins of society. That's, that's who like erupts. And so they're not gonna be the good guy. You know, they're gonna be the criminals, they're gonna be the black market. You know what I mean? And that's, that's, that's almost too intel -- like okay, let's not make assumptions, I guess like you said about that person that tweeted, but that's like...it's a little bit smarter than that.

[00:19:59] And like you can, again, you can think about like that this what you're saying too, Josh, about this story, like relating it to, Oh, what your friends said about the way the police operate in America. Yes. And it's also to me it's like this is what the British were doing in Northern Ireland.

[00:20:13] You know, it's the same mentality to go into that, that we did, that we did in Fallujah, that we did in Iraq. This is what we were doing in Iraq. You know, just coming in and, and that's honestly why half the problem we have in the cities now is that that was just imported from our operations in Iraq to these cities.

[00:20:29] And again, it's that mentality of like, and I think the show's also hitting on this too in terms of like his speech about how he was able to sneak in. Cuz they're so full of themselves, like, that's one of the themes that seems this show is that this, this power, this authority is, is full of themselves, is narcissistic, can't conceive of not being wrong as they go into these things and just create chaos.

[00:20:52] BRACEY: Yeah, it's like, in like that very first sequence, again, going back to it, the show itself is not a, it's not afraid to, to play, like, let things play in the subtext, which is, you know, that's a mature move. That's a mature storytelling move and not one that I feel like Star Wars has really done well.

[00:21:17] Like, you know, I think, I think George Lucas has tr like, that's really where he is been trying to like, let the whole, the whole thing play out. But he doesn't really know.

[00:21:30] MURRAY: Because there's always been clear cut good guys and bad guys. And even when someone was muddied like Han Solo, they went back and changed it so that he's a clear, good guy that would never shoot someone out of cold blood, you know? And so they always have that. And so now we're getting a blurred line.

[00:21:47] And that's why people are like, Oh, you know, he's the good guy. He's the bad guy. It's like, Or are they both a little bit of, you know, like the guy that's tracking him down is not the bad guy. Like any bad trait he has is because he's not listening to his commanding officers. So he's got a rebellious streak in him.

[00:22:04] BRACEY: Is that...is that his only bad quality?

[00:22:07] MURRAY: You get what I'm, you get, you get what I'm saying, Like, I'm talking in the,the universe of those people. I'm not saying from me objectively because I'm just like, Yeah, shoot the guy in the face. Like, fuck that guy. But I'm saying like, as a, what he is, you know, like as the, the. The cop type person that he is. His bad trait is, he's like not listening like this cuz his commanding officer knew the deal just by seeing the outcome. Right. He knew everything that happened and he was like, Trust me, like, don't do this. And so now he's so like, like blinded by ju getting this justice that now he's what killed like six other guys because of it, or something along that, those lines.

[00:22:52] BRACEY: But is that justice he's really seeking?

[00:22:55] MURRAY: But you understand that I'm speaking objectively. I'm not doing my opinion on the people.

[00:23:00] BRACEY: Yeah. No, I, I get you.

[00:23:04] JOSH: I don't think he's going after justice. Like, one of the things that I think the show does really well, that that character embodies, I know he has a name, but I call him Space Richard Spencer, but like what are these law and order folk are really after? These like, small, gains and like, rank and self importance and trying to further themselves in the institutions that they find themselves.

[00:23:30] And it's like, you know, like, what's motivating Space Richard Spencer, I feel like is really, power. It's either power over the people who are not supposed to have any and who are acting up and also like the power within his own organization.

[00:23:45] Like, it's funny, and I don't know what this says about me, but I don't find anything morally gray or ambiguous about any of these characters. Like, I don't think that Cassian is a morally gray or ambiguous character. I don't find anything he's done so far in this show to be questionable, and I think Space Richard Spencer is just like a really bad guy. I mean, I don't know.

[00:24:13] MURRAY: No, that's definitely interesting because like, I, I'm definitely living in the gray for both of them because it's just like, obviously I'm gonna side with Cassian Andor I would like, it's have no qualms about that. But like, for me it feels like kind of like, like a noir type vibe where you're like the, the quote unquote good guys not really that good. Like, he's like, but he's not like bad, but like, I mean, he did, there was one accidental killing followed by straight up murder.

[00:24:45] JOSH: Yeah. Yeah. But but that guy created that situation. Like he, he knew what he was doing. He knew the risks and he knew he fucked up. And he also knew that Cassian had no other choice.

[00:24:56] MURRAY: But I mean, but he did, but it's not a good choice.

[00:25:02] BRACEY: But that's not a choice. Like if, like, think about it, think about it. Like if you took that same scenario and, and you ran it in like in America in the 1950s or something like that, and you, and you put those guys as cops in an, in an illegal bar with a black guy in an illegal bar, and then those guys decided to, uh, to do it. Like, it's not like when you've put somebody in a position where they're going to die, if they do not kill you, that's not a choice.

[00:25:37] MURRAY: No, I understand that.

[00:25:40] BRACEY: That defense is like, it's not a choice.

[00:25:43] MURRAY: He was pointing the gun at him, not pulling the trigger, and then it got to a point where he decided to pull the trigger, is what I'm saying. I'm not saying it's a choice that he could have gotten away and not like, and been safe and stuff like that, but to, to, kill that man was like, and that's where I'm finding my gray area with them. I would never say, Andor's a bad dude, but I'm not gonna compare him to Luke Skywalker.

[00:26:08] JOSH: Well, to be fair though, the context here really does a lot.

[00:26:12] BRACEY: Context does everything. It's everything.

[00:26:14] JOSH: I mean, Cassian went to great lengths to avoid escalating this situation and these guys were huge assholes and were just trying to fuck with him. They started it at the bar and then they went after him. Like they walked into it. Like, I really don't --

[00:26:31] MICKEY: They're gonna rob him. It's extortion. To a certain point, what he's doing is self-defense.

[00:26:36] JOSH: Yeah. They are abusing their authority.

[00:26:38] MURRAY: No, and I'm not, I'm not taking anything away from it. I'm not saying that he's a bad guy or anything like that, but I'm just saying that one guy was killed in literal self-defense. Right. The guy was attacking him and they were fighting and the guy hit his head.

[00:26:53] BRACEY: Two guys were killed in self defense. That's what I'm saying.

[00:26:57] MURRAY: Yeah. And that's where I'm

[00:26:58] BRACEY: you're saying physical altercation,

[00:27:01] JOSH: one wasn't accident. The other, wasn't like that's the only distinction, But

[00:27:05] MURRAY: Well, that's a way. Yeah. So one was purposeful and one was accidental. That's what

[00:27:09] I'm, that's like,

[00:27:10] BRACEY: both killed in self defense is all like that's

[00:27:12] MURRAY: but what I'm, what I, for me, if, andor has lack of, forgive the cliche, the higher ground, the guys on his knees with the gun pointed to his face at a certain point it does stop becoming self-defense in that altercation.

[00:27:28] MICKEY: because

[00:27:28] BRACEY: no, that's the

[00:27:29] point of the subtext. That's exactly the

[00:27:31] point of the subtext. If you don't understand the subtext of what's going on and the

[00:27:35] larger and the larger situation, then that's

[00:27:38] JOSH: because in the larger situation, the cop still has the high ground.

[00:27:41] MICKEY: Tony Gilroy's writing is too good for us to be talking about black, white, and gray. That's not what's going on. That's not how he's writing, that's not what we're seeing here cuz we're not seeing some sort of show about a world and like a moral, like we live in a world where there's people who are in situations who kill, who because of material conditions and because of their psychology are gonna be driven into the story we're watching.

[00:28:03] You know, the story of why Andors in that reason. And the reason why there's three people, all who could have killed each other is because that's the world they live in. And like,

[00:28:10] no one's like, no one's per se, the good guy, no one's per se, the bad guy. Andor, Andor isn't gonna go to do the good thing because there's like a thing called ultimate good and there's a thing called Ultimate Evil.

[00:28:20] This show is about a world that's created by

[00:28:23] greed of the empire and then there's people with their material conditions and their psychology who will inhibit, bounce off and be. Particles in this world and the situations, and then the choices they make in those situations aren't based on, Again, this is what we're talking about, Star Wars growing up with us.

[00:28:39] We're not in the

[00:28:40] light side, the dark side anymore. We are in the real world, basically, where there isn't really such thing as a gray, white, or black character. There's

[00:28:48] MURRAY: and so I, I need to clarify too, that like, just because he killed those people, it doesn't change my perspective of him. It adds to his character. That's where my comparison to Moses comes in, because Moses was living in an occupied land and in defending someone else, he killed Egypt. Uh, an Egyptian guard hid the body and he fled.

[00:29:12] And so that's what happens with, Andor, and just like Moses, he gets called upon to like free these people and lead them to a promised future that he himself does never, never gets to see. And which is what we know from Rogue One happens with Andor So to me, him making that decision doesn't make him a good guy or a bad guy, makes him a complex character.

[00:29:36] But what I was trying to get to was a point of like, The way other, the other side, the way the cops on the empire are going to see him versus how the rebels are gonna see him versus how we see him. It's gonna be all different points of view

[00:29:54] on the same character. And that's where when people try to get binary about it, like the tweets that we're seeing, Yeah, it's not gonna line up.

[00:30:02] It's not gonna make any sense. Like Mickey was saying, because it's too, there's too much, And the Bracey was saying too, there's too much nuance and subtext in it, but that's what leads it to a discussion like this, which other Star Wars stuff doesn't always lend itself to, because it is so like, look at him, he's just all in black against an all white background.

[00:30:23] He's the batty. And you know, he's dressed and white, he's an innocent farm boy. He like, just wants to do the right thing and like, and so this is a totally different area that we're getting into where it's like you watch Blade Runner and like you're, you'll be like, Oh, Decker, like he's an asshole. Like he's kind of like, but he's the protagonist.

[00:30:42] Like, he's like, Who you're rooting for, but you're like, you wouldn't be like, you know, who's my favorite hero? And like the

[00:30:48] best guy out there like,

[00:30:49] BRACEY: Absolutely. I, I think the, uh, the thing that I'm, pushing towards is more just the reading of it. When you're looking through that lens, I feel like, as a decision to some extent, is that you miss, the beautiful thing that's happening. It's like, to me it's not that he's making a decision in that point, and maybe this is just how I'm reading it.

[00:31:06] But it's not about him making a decision. He's catching up with what, what this situation means. Like the other guy got there and starts freaking out because he realizes what the situation is. And it's not that he's in a position that he has to, uh, he has to make a choice. He's like, Oh shit, that means this, that, like, and so we're letting somebody have this like freak out and realization and then the moment he realize is like, Where is it?

[00:31:33] He still, and that's what I meant, like it's still self defense. It's like lot of choice. It's like, Oh, like that's where we're at. Like, holy shit. And it's just like a, a different reading. That's the only thing I'm

[00:31:43] saying is like, is it

[00:31:45] MURRAY: like, he could have ran away or tried to, I'm not saying he should have, I'm not saying like that. There was, would've been a way to write that and, but to choose the more complex way of No, this is the guy you love from, you know, Rogue One and he's your hero.

[00:31:59] But like, watch this origin story because it's going to make you uncomfortable. It's gonna rock your world because

[00:32:06] you want like a Luke Skywalker that's going to

[00:32:09] BRACEY: really, I thought like from the first, like, uh, from his very first scene in Rogue One, I like, this is the, this is the guy to like, to me, I'm like, this is already, this isn't anything like challenging about the who the character was or anything. Like, I feel like if you watched Rogue One, you'd been like, Okay.

[00:32:29] Like, yeah, this, this completely

[00:32:30] aligns with that.

[00:32:31] JOSH: The first scene he has in Rogue One, he shoots his friend in, I don't know if it's in the back, but he knows that his contact, he's freaking out and he's gonna slow him down. So , he shoots him in cold blood

[00:32:42] MURRAY: Mm.

[00:32:43] JOSH: and like, you know, like, which is even like, kind of worse than what he does in, the first episode of the show.

[00:32:49] Because like in the first episode of the show, to put it lightly, there's already an adversarial relationship, between the guards and, Cassian. And, and in Rogue One, like the first time we see him, he unambiguously shoots a guy on his side just because , he's slowing him down, , because he won't calm down.

[00:33:07] MURRAY: But

[00:33:07] JOSH: it's

[00:33:07] MURRAY: think what, um, I'm saying too is like, coming into Andor having followed world one, we already have, a feeling for who this character is and turns out to be like at the end. And that's like the impression that you are, you're left with. So that's, um, what I'm talking about, like you're preloaded with this character.

[00:33:31] Like, you know, if, if, if you didn't see Rogue One and you just watched this, then you, I could see you being confused, like someone being confused about the choice to have him kill somebody. But we have like, like a, I don't wanna say a bias to it, but like, we we're just like, we're preloaded with him because we saw a whole movie about him already and his, like

[00:33:54] BRACEY: I think I'm biased, but I don't think that's the way I'm biased. Yeah. I don't think that's the

[00:33:58] way I'm

[00:33:58] biased

[00:33:59] towards the situation.

[00:34:00] JOSH: like my thing with that situation and Cassian is like, these guys are huge assholes and they're squeezing him and they are forcing him to do a thing. They are forcing him into a situation like my read of that scene and the, forces at play is like this is the world he lives in where these guys think that they run everything and they are, fucking with the wrong guy.

[00:34:24] And he gives them every opportunity to diffuse the situation. And they back him into a corner and the guy, the guy that he shoots, like Bracey keeps saying like, he realizes he fucked up,

[00:34:36] MURRAY: yeah. Oh, I don't think there's anything sincere in the guy's apology. Like,

[00:34:40] JOSH: he could be sincere. He could not be sincere. The point is that, it doesn't matter. because even if he is sincere in that moment, what happens, you know, a day later when he's not in that desperate situation anymore and his life is in that stake and he has like all of his, buddies around him, like he, he may change his mind.

[00:34:58] And that's what, Cassian is realizing. He's like, Shit, I can't take this chance.

[00:35:03] MICKEY: Yeah, like what's like, you know, with kind of going on there is again this idea of like, we are discovering that why Cassian becomes Cassian for Rogue One, I think, and like if we're talking about Rogue One, what he did in that, you can talk about Sagar, the idea of. Rebellion is like, this is what world one, I haven't seen the cartoons, but I understand this is what they were doing with Saul Guer and the cartoons where they're like, Oh, the Star Wars made these rebels be these nice rebels.

[00:35:28] Who are the good guys? But like they can't, if we're making real world thing, they can't be Superman, right? They can't be Batman. I don't kill. They have to be gorillas. They actually have to be rebels. And then to become rebels. The people who become rebels are the people like that guy. He was sincerely begging for his life and he, it wasn't like a guaranteed for him.

[00:35:46] This guy could be thinking, Oh, this guy might not be a killer. This guy might not be willing to kill me. I will beg for my life. Get out of it. Maybe I'll tell the story, maybe I won't. But like, if this guy's not for real, I'm out. I'll just do the whole thing. I'll convince him we can lie together and no one has to know, and he walks away.

[00:36:02] But let's not, like Cassian is a killer and because we discover it in this scene, Cassian is a killer. We discover that is why Cassian will become the rebellion,

[00:36:12] because that's what it takes. This, this, this is the story of like, this is what we're taught. That like Lenn and you know, and like on our side that Shay are these bad, evil people, but in the end, that's the only one who's going to change the world like those guys did.

[00:36:24] MURRAY: Yeah. And I get, and I, I don't know if I'm just choosing the wrong words, like obviously he's sincerely pleading for his life, but it's not like he's having an actual change of heart. Like, Oh, we messed up. He's just trying to talk himself out of getting shot. Like,

[00:36:40] that's what I meant by like sincere. It's not like he has like, Oh, Ive learned the error of my ways.

[00:36:46] BRACEY: Yeah.

[00:36:47] No, Well, yeah, cuz even his solution, he's like, Let's go, we'll walk in and I'll take like, you know, and I'll

[00:36:53] MURRAY: Still win. Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah,

[00:36:55] BRACEY: And that's it. So that, that's why I'm saying like, I think he to some extent was bere. Cause he really went straight to the, like, the absolute truth.

[00:37:03] But I, What I also love about these, the, the way that this set up is these guys are not the empire, right? Like

[00:37:09] these guys are

[00:37:10] so.

[00:37:11] MURRAY: like um, yeah, they're like

[00:37:13] militia for the empire or something like

[00:37:15] BRACEY: uh, there's some kind of police of this, Of this very

[00:37:18] specific corporate. Yeah, a corporate that is like on some for, what's at play here is beautifully like, literally layered because like you're actually looking at these forces of power play out and how they mix and how they collide in ways that is just like, you're gonna obviously put humans in a position where they have to literally kill somebody to stay

[00:37:43] when they

[00:37:43] wouldn't have had you not.

[00:37:44] MURRAY: would,

[00:37:45] would you guys think that they, um, the people like the corporation, do they hire people of the planet to police the planet? Cause like back in, like, say like Bible times, that's what they would do is they would send Rome to Occupy, say like Judea, and then they would get Jewish people to help the Romans police and stuff like that, to thus create more

[00:38:08] division within everybody.

[00:38:10] JOSH: interesting, the exact, dynamics, weren't perfectly clear to me, which I, kind of appreciate. It's like, you know, kind of figure it out on your own. But I think the corporation is, representing , these two planets or these, these two systems, and they have been granted, exclusive rights to mine, , the resources of . These systems.

[00:38:32] Sort of like the East India trading Company or whatever. So, and then they have their own, police. Um, one quick thing before I throw it over to Mickey. I do think that they are, , doing something with, the different regional, accents that we're hearing, like is not just the queen's English like . Received pronunciation of the Imperials and the original trilogy.

[00:38:55] It's like, you know, more, flavors of English, but also like a little bit of Irish, a little Scottish. It's like, not just the upper, upper class of the empire that I think we sort of saw in the original trilogy. I think that that's, something they're playing with.

[00:39:09] And like you said, Mickey, I also think it's also to kind of evoke the troubles and the conflict with like the IRA and sort of put you in that kind of head space as.

[00:39:18] MICKEY: Yeah. Like kind of to the point like, why Bracey says this is like amazing. It is true. Like what I think what they're, this is like, you know, we gotta like talk about this with like af you know, hopefully everyone's listened to our last episode the Trade Federation, um, thing because this, this show is just playing, I, I, I almost feel like Tony Gilroy I read, read Andy's play and is like, Oh, let's actually get into the details of how trade, you know, affects the galaxy and everything.

[00:39:44] Um, and this kind of broke slip. So the idea that like, right, the Trade Federation started the galactic civil war and, you know, you can get into all the papa is the thing, but like the whole point is like, We want free trade. So they create the empire because, And then the empire, you know, you're playing around with I think kind of, it's weird cuz you're playing with colonialism and fascism at the same time.

[00:40:01] But, um, but that's actually kinda interesting. I'll get to that later. But basically, you know, what fascism is, is basically creating a state that corporations have the supreme control. It's creating a, a, um, uh, authoritarian state for, for the corporations. So the idea that you had the Trade Federation cause a galas award to create the empire so that the trade federation can, can just strip mine.

[00:40:24] These planets just basically enslave these people into basic enslavement through like this colonial project. You know, that's definitely something that show is playing with that, that, I think is really cool that they're, that that's why they're introduced and we're not seeing the empire, we're seeing this other thing because that's what this is.

[00:40:39] The progression, the progression to the war over trade, to the companies winning and getting to have their say. Um, and then, and eventually that become the fascist state that just takes over the galaxy and is all encompassing. Um, and, and like I've the fourth episode really, really, really pointed to this and it kind of plays into this idea of like, you know, who's joining these things?

[00:41:00] What, what are they doing to, they're doing things to populations of planets. They're like that, that one planet, like they moved in to colonize again, this is a very third world story. This is a very, like, this is very like, kind of like Argentinian or something where they're like, this is ours now reminding you.

[00:41:13] And the only life you can ever have is by going to the. They didn't like, It's not this idea of the empire. Oh, the empire wiped every person out. It's like, no, the empire just created a life that they can't live their, their whole life anymore. They

[00:41:22] have to live in slums, you know, the slum vacation of, of the empire basically.

[00:41:27] Um, and then the other thing say to what you're saying about that language is like, that's so true. And the other thing I think is interesting is that that's what, if you've ever seen the death of Stalin, that's what they did is they

[00:41:35] casted all these actors and had them. They'd said, Okay, Stalin was from like a poor kid from Georgia.

[00:41:41] So he had like the cockney accent, like they played around with each

[00:41:45] person's Russian heritage to connect it to whatever British heritage equivalent it would be to create the characters. And yeah, they're definitely doing that with this show too.

[00:41:53] JOSH: The death of Stalin is, is a fucking amazing movie that, doesn't get the credit that should,

[00:41:58] MICKEY: Still good

[00:41:59] BRACEY: Put put it on your movie list, everyone. Um, there's something about this show that I, I, I got really interested in when, I think it was in the second or third episode, when they actually show you the mind, like, uh, or actually might have even been the first episode when they actually show you the mining planet.

[00:42:15] Um, and I've been thinking about like how, uh, uh, we think, we like to think that our. Uh, our willingness to help somebody else is like, based on like some kind of moral trigger. Like we have a certain morals of cert certain level and we're gonna help people. Uh, but really I think it's like a function of distance and, uh, like how far you are away from somebody who's in help, uh, who's in need will determine how, like, how, how is, how likely it is you're gonna actually help them.

[00:42:47] Like, and I think it plays out every, every day. Like, you know, uh, uh, we know that there are people outside of a certain radius of us who are like in dire need of help, and most people don't actually go to, uh, go to help them. And this is true more and more. And like thinking about that on a galactic level where like they really don't care.

[00:43:04] Like you're really less likely to help somebody because, uh, of the people who need help are spread so much. And I think that was like, well kind of laid out in a, in, in some way in the, in the senator scene when she, uh, she comes home, uh, I forgot what her name is, um, Mom Mo, what was her name?

[00:43:22] JOSH: Yeah.

[00:43:23] BRACEY: uh,

[00:43:23] MURRAY: yeah,

[00:43:24] JOSH: yeah,

[00:43:24] BRACEY: Oh, it was Mont.

[00:43:25] Oh, okay. Okay. Sorry. It's long. It's been so long since I've said her name a lot. Um, but like, uh, the idea, uh, that we're getting to see the people who are going to fight, like we're seeing the collection of the people who are, will, are ready to fight against that distance. Like they're ready to fight for, uh, uh, uh, for this like, conglomerate of people who are being oppressed.

[00:43:49] This large machine that is like constantly spreading out that they're, uh, they're pulling together is just so exciting that they're like, they, they decided to like really tie into, uh, uh, of the things that are happening currently in the history of things that have happened and like really leveraged this.

[00:44:07] It's like, it's actually, I feel like this is the first time that Star Wars is getting into sci-fi. Does that make, is

[00:44:13] that, is that like, is

[00:44:14] that. to like, just it's like that they're actually like, No, this is a sci-fi, this is, this is sci-fi. Like they're, this is more than just, uh, a fantasy. This is more than just a space fantasy.

[00:44:25] There's no more like space wizards. And this is, this is sci-fi. All right. That's my go

[00:44:30] JOSH: That's interesting. That's an interesting point. Um, can we talk about, the music for a sec,

[00:44:36] BRACEY: Absolutely not. No, it's beautiful. It's, it's, it's fantastic.

[00:44:41] JOSH: Was it in the second episode? I think the end of the second episode where he goes into like a full on like, guitar and drums like I was just like, wow. Like this is so unlike Star Wars that we have, gotten before.

[00:44:55] And it's interesting, because, this a show that's feels, no constraints, Like feels no, no obligation to adhere to any of the traditional Star Wars conventions and is all like, okay, what can we, utilize here to tell a story as effectively as we can?

[00:45:17] Right? And it's sort of like , the Star Wars universe is just sort of, I don't wanna say, window dressing, because it is very much about the specifics of this universe, but it's just kind of fleshing it out and, rendering it in a very, like, realistic human way. It's giving the Star Wars universe a kind of serious treatment that I don't think it's ever really gotten

[00:45:38] before.

[00:45:38] MURRAY: Yeah, it feels like a very, like, lived in world. Like when he's like walking down the street, you're like, Oh, those people are going to work behind him. You know? It's like, it's just like, we never see that. We never see like, like robots, like, uh, you know, like droids charging like at home and people just like what their daily lives are like and that's like, that's awesome.

[00:45:59] Cuz it always just seemed like Star Wars, even if it tried to get like, on the more gritty side, like Mando or something like that. Like, it always was just very clean and shiny and everything just felt, not like a set in the sense of like a movie sense, but like, it felt like just like, like, like set pieces.

[00:46:17] Like, all right, this is the, the what we're doing inside of this cant, let's make it look store wary and, and weird. But like, so the fact that he goes to like a bar and is like, no one's really there and the lighting's just like we, it's just like a very like real world with real people living in it. Like, it

[00:46:37] almost feels vaguely documentary, but obviously not.

[00:46:41] But it's just like, that's the kind of like realism that they're, they're getting just like, no everybody, you're not weird aliens in a bar. You're literally, you know, you may look like an alien, but you're going to work so you're just like, walk past him in a hurry because you're late for work. Like, it just feels very lived in is the only way I

[00:46:58] could like say

[00:46:58] BRACEY: It it, feels like the show is rebelling. It feels like the show is rebelling against the, what, the Star Wars empire has become. And it feels like it's rebelling to some extent about like, like how, uh, uh, we were supposed to see Star Wars and like, like it's, it's been like, uh, no, uh, uh, we're gonna tell you, uh, what, what's really going on in this situation.

[00:47:28] Like, what an empire really looks like, like how this really affects people's lives and the hard choices that people really have to make. I, I, uh, uh, uh, I think it, yeah, feels, feels great to

[00:47:40] MICKEY: Okay.

[00:47:41] JOSH: No, and I mean like, one of my favorite scenes from, I think the second episode I. it's all sort of a blur, but, um, when, Luthen he's on, uh, the shuttle ride into town, like, the scene on, the shuttle bus and like he's talking with that, merchant or whatever he is.

[00:47:55] And just like that's a conversation that I feel like, I mean, not only would you not get in another Star Wars movie, but it's just like really painting a picture about what life under Fascism is really like, and it's sort of like, it's all about, it's all about inconvenience for a while you know, it's all about the adjusting to the new reality and like, you know, how you kind of, tolerate it, but like, oh, like, you know, things used to be so much easier in the good old days and it's just kind of like, there was something about that conversation that just felt real and very on the ground and really demonstrates nality of a lot of what life under a fascist state, or like a corporate, fascist state, like sort of is, like that kind of detail. So it's like a character moment, but kind of expands the world

[00:48:49] MICKEY: It's funny, like you're saying like the music, so like speaking of like music in almost of this way of like, related to music is like the, um, the writing is very different than Star Wars in that it's

[00:49:00] good, you know, so

[00:49:02] JOSH: the dialogue. there are so many, like, just little human moments, human interactions, the minutia of what they're talking about, the way that they say things, the kinds of things that they talk about.

[00:49:13] MICKEY: But

[00:49:13] also like the, the, the monologues or the stuff like the, the,

[00:49:17] the speeches, the way they are able to like, Like, do these and to a point's almost unrealistic, like the, the, the supervisors like talking down to the, basically the D age Kyle McLaughlin character, um, the, uh, the like, just this way of like saying like, this is like why we aren't gonna go do this.

[00:49:36] Like, it's beautiful poetic language, you know, like in that, So you get, you get both like, Yeah, what you're saying, Josh, were these like the little things, just the little day to day talks and then every once in a while when they have like these, like it was both that one. And then I'm thinking of also the, the supervisor of the security bureau, his like speech

[00:49:53] two.

[00:49:54] It's just like, it's like, and to that and that's Tony Gilroy, that's like straight up Michael Clayton, you know,

[00:49:58] JOSH: Right. Well, so, so, but that's also really interesting, like the, the, uh, that scene that you're talking about, like the, the bureaucracy of it, the, like the, the, like the making the trains run on time aspect of it. The knowing your, your station like we have, procedures and, and protocols and like we are a cog in this machine and you are a cog in this machine.

[00:50:25] Like the language and like the grandiosity and the poetry of, , what the supervisor says in that scene. it kind of evokes that, like it's very, baroque, but sort of in like a very, you know, functional way. Like he's using a lot of words like to say nothing really. Like it's really what it is. and what's so interesting too is the fact that that is in the same show that also has the kinds of conversations about , human, minutia that I was talking about. It's like, it's like this is a show that is using language to tell its story, right?

[00:50:59] So, so it is using language in a way. Star Wars never really has before.

[00:51:04] MURRAY: Yeah, there was like some stuff in the dialogue that was like really hitting me in which I'm, I like take for granted that. Cuz from the other movies and shows, people just go like, All right, I'm leaving the planet. I'm gonna go travel through space to somewhere else. And then there's some stuff that was being said, um, where it just like hit me.

[00:51:21] I was like, Oh, that's like not everyone's reality. There's like probably people just how there's people that have never left the country. Like they probably never like left and saw space. They're just like living like, I don't, It was like, like that aspect. And then when, um, sars Gar, he's like showing off like the ancient artifacts and like we actually are seeing.

[00:51:45] Clubs and stuff that you don't actually think about because Star Wars has always just been lasers and light swords and spaceships, and you're like, Oh fuck. Right? They, like, they did have an advancement of technology just like, uh, every other civilization, but you never really had to think about that stuff.

[00:52:02] And so I was just thinking, like, putting it very much in our reality. And so I was like, Oh, there's probably people that have never left the planet. There's, you know, they just

[00:52:11] only know their hometown or, or something like that. And it's like, it's like I never had those types of thoughts with any other Star Wars before, cuz it just seemed like, kind of like, oh, going into the store and they go into outer space and go to another planet and they buy a TV at Space Best Buy and come back.

[00:52:27] Like, but it's like, no, that's not the reality. Especially in this show. It's, it's really cool.

[00:52:33] JOSH: the other shows, like as much as I enjoyed them, like kind of made the Star Wars galaxy feel, smaller, like,

[00:52:40] everything was sort of happening in and around, Tatooine and like, oh, like I recognize that guy from, you know, sort of stuff.

[00:52:47] This is the first kind of filmic Star Wars, and I'm including, the prequels since the original trilogy that like really makes the galaxy feel huge, in a way that I don't think it's really felt , for, decades. For me, like, not since like the nineties, the expanded universe, unlike the role playing games and stuff like where you would have all of these, different writers imagining like their own little corner of the Star Wars universe that sort of made you feel like, oh, like, like anything.

[00:53:14] can happen in this larger galaxy. It's a much larger galaxy, and I think this is the first show that makes me feel that way.

[00:53:22] BRACEY: Totally

[00:53:23] MICKEY: Maybe we can tie, like, I'll tie this into maybe another topic like, or actually similar to what you're saying, like, you know, like how the other shows made the university smaller and like a big thing is the other shows were all about that fan service of. , here comes Luke, here comes this per, here comes this person from the Clone Wars.

[00:53:39] You know? So it's like small universe in one way. Like it's like the idea that you have to do this fan service, which a just feels forced anyway to me, again, like the idea that the show's not growing up with me, that's not what I'm in it for. Um, but I was just gonna say, so like, they're not doing this show and it's awesome.

[00:53:54] And I'd say like, and like again, that's the type of girl Star Wars fan who's growing up to be like, to me, I'd be more, more than any character coming in the show as like an appearance I'd be excited about is the fact that this is a Tony Gilroy show. So at some point if someone asks a character, say, You think you got the toons for it?

[00:54:10] Do you That's what I'm waiting for. for that. Like Michael Clayton shout out or something.

[00:54:16] BRACEY: This, This, show is like, fuck your cameos.

[00:54:18] MICKEY: yeah, no, totally. And it's so much better for it.

[00:54:22] MURRAY: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:23] for.

[00:54:24] JOSH: I'm really excited for seeing more of the Senate stuff.

[00:54:28] MICKEY: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:29] JOSH: because I think something that was really made clear with the pacing of the story, so what I think this first season is like 12 episodes or something like that.

[00:54:38] I really think it's gonna be like four sort of three episode mini movies, if that sort of makes any sense. you know, it was very interesting, like, um, Space. Richard Spencer, I think his name is, uh, Kern Carn, Syril Karn. An apology, , to the actor, but he really just has like, a perfectly, punchable little face.

[00:54:57] I felt like.

[00:54:58] MURRAY: It's very punchable. Yeah, it's,

[00:55:00] that's a

[00:55:00] great way to describe it. Yeah,

[00:55:02] Cause I just like,

[00:55:03] just looking at his face. I was like, I hate this guy.

[00:55:06] JOSH: So like those first three episodes, like you're really sort of following, Serial Karn and Cassian, Andor, and they're sort of like, charting the two of them watching their rise on opposite sides.

[00:55:18] Like I think it's clear that obviously, , Cyril, after, , he has his ass handed to him at the end of the third episode, I think, it's clear he's gonna rise in the ranks of the Empire, maybe even in the ISB. And he is gonna be after Cassian. And Like, it's like. Jve and, um,

[00:55:37] MURRAY: Jump.

[00:55:38] Yeah,

[00:55:40] Jump van.

[00:55:41] JOSH: Yeah. an Inspector Jve and John Val John sort of relationship where like, I don't think that, Cyril is ever really gonna let this go. Cuz now it's, it's, it's really

[00:55:54] MURRAY: and,

[00:55:54] he'll continue to do more damage. Like just to get

[00:55:58] this guy and then the damage he's gonna do is gonna be far worse than ,

[00:56:03] a lot of the other fallout. Yeah.

[00:56:05] JOSH: so, but it was interesting, because I felt like, the first, three episodes had his story sort of front and center. And then in, , the fourth episode, he sort of, , receded more into the background. Like we saw him, he got, he got chewed out and then like he goes home, to Coruscant, I think.

[00:56:19] Right? No, was that someplace

[00:56:21] MURRAY: What, what? Yeah, it was

[00:56:22] weird. It was almost like down in the depths of it, like, almost like

[00:56:25] he lost his, his like, uh, yeah, his standing. And so he

[00:56:30] just had

[00:56:30] BRACEY: Or that's, No, I think that's where, where his family is from. I think that's just where like, the class level that he was able to get a job in the Empire. That's where, that's where his fam like, I think it was very interesting because I think the choice of his mother was suggesting that there's something like, like he was kind of hiding ethnicity to some extent.

[00:56:50] You know, like, and like showing that like he wants to, he's like overbuilding himself to really show like he's of a higher, uh, a higher standing within

[00:56:59] MURRAY: That's why I'm like, that's why I think it was like very like intentional to, to show literally like how far he has to go

[00:57:05] down in hi in the elevator, like, know?

[00:57:08] BRACEY: Totally.

[00:57:09] JOSH: something that was so kind of, potent and amazing about, like, even his little amount of screen time in that episode was, , when he gets home, the door opens, his mom slaps him in the face, and you don't know why, but like, it's, it's like that, that kind of storytelling where it's all subtext. Like, we don't know. We don't know anything. It's like, beneath the surface yet, like we know so much about what that implies about who he is, what his upbringing is, and like where , he's going to go, like a moment like that, there's nothing else like anywhere in Star Wars.

[00:57:47] BRACEY: That, that was great. There's also like a, there was a moment with a robot that I really loved, like when he first gets back in the first episode and he is talking to the robot and, and he is like, I'm gonna need you, uh, uh, do you have like enough power to lie for me? And it's like, I've, I've, I've charged, like, you know, like I'm, I'm at a standard le like I'm at a, uh, I'm at a level that I can lie for you.

[00:58:11] And then, and then it like comes out that there's actually two, two lies. And then he is like, I will go home and charge like . Like, like, like, like the actual, like there is a power level to lying that like you, it takes computational power for it to pull.

[00:58:30] MURRAY: Yeah. That's cool. Yeah.

[00:58:35] JOSH: No, I mean, not only that. , like I agree with everything that you're saying and like, yeah, like that is amazing. And like, you know, the idea that for a machine you know, and not even for a machine, for like a human as well, it like does take a little more effort to, deviate from, the truth. Because like you're not just recounting something, you're like fabricating something

[00:58:52] But they didn't just leave it at that. Like, they established that. And then in the third episode, actually became a source of tension when, they raided Cassian's home and his mother was there. and the droid, he didn't have enough, power to lie.

[00:59:07] BRACEY: It's so good.

[00:59:08] MURRAY: I like the, even like the little nuance of like that, like you can't just go. And get a new droid. Like, it's so beat up compared to like the flashbacks. Cause like, no, they're like, you don't have the money to just go, like, buy new shit. Like, it's like, it's like, you know, having a car that you're like keeping on its last legs.

[00:59:27] And so it's like, you know, I feel like it gets stuck. It gets all this stuff. Like, um, it's really like aged and they're like holding onto it. I thought that was like a real cool like, um, aspect to that, like, lived in world too with Thero. I like that guy.

[00:59:42] JOSH: what's the droid's name?

[00:59:43] MICKEY:

[00:59:43] They just call 'em B. it's,

[00:59:44] like B2 something, but I think they just always call 'em b.

[00:59:48] JOSH: B2 emo, but what do they call him in the show?

[00:59:51] MICKEY: I think just B, they always just say, Hey, B.

[00:59:53] BRACEY: b2, Emo. I love, I love that. I'm just reading an article About About the name. I like that.

[00:59:59] MICKEY: great voice. Work for that.

[01:00:00] Droid too, kind of reminds me of the Interstellar droid, the very dryness.

[01:00:04] BRACEY: Oh

[01:00:05] yeah.

[01:00:06] JOSH: Um yeah, I mean like there are so many good things that, that I could talk about. Like, I love, Luthen. I think Stellan Skarsgård is, killing it.

[01:00:16] MURRAY: Yeah, he's great. When he puts

[01:00:19] on that, like, the fake persona,

[01:00:21] but that's what everyone thinks is the real persona. It's great. Like when he is like pr, not like practicing in the mirror, but almost doing that kind of like it's showtime like think to himself after, after he gets like changed, like, oh, like, and then you really get the feeling of like, he hates this existence that he has to put on.

[01:00:38] Like, it's, um,

[01:00:40] BRACEY: Yeah,

[01:00:40] The facade.

[01:00:41] MURRAY: Yeah.

[01:00:42] BRACEY: Yeah. No, that, that moment in the mirror is great because he like, he's like, Yeah, he's, he's like, All, wait, let me like, like, let me shake into it. Like I gotta,

[01:00:51] MURRAY: That I

[01:00:52] BRACEY: it's, I gotta fit into these, these little bits

[01:00:56] MICKEY: It's, it's great too cuz he gets Stellan Skarsgård. Like he's just such a great actor who can do that stuff, who can do that character. But no one ever hires him anymore to do, to do different things. You always hire him to be his talents scars, guard.

[01:01:08] And this show gets to have his cake and eat it too.

[01:01:10] We're like, yeah, he get, he gets to be, you know, the gruff guy. But we can also let him like do his range

[01:01:15] that

[01:01:15] he doesn't get

[01:01:15] MURRAY: have some fun with it. Yeah. And

[01:01:18] my, my dude from, uh, The Beast was one of the rebels. I was so excited to see him. The, the guy with his stunning blue eyes, uh, the bear. I'm not The

[01:01:28] beast. The bear,

[01:01:29] Sorry.

[01:01:30] JOSH: Oh yeah. Right.

[01:01:31] MURRAY: Yeah, the bear

[01:01:32] JOSH: but yeah, one thing that I am really excited to see, I'm really excited to see more of the, the political stuff going on with, Mon Mothma and the Senate. This idea that, you know, she's a politician obviously. She was in episode three in a cut scene.

[01:01:49] So, but the idea is that like she and Bail Organa they are still sitting senators in this, supposed, you know, representative, democracy. And it's like, what does she do? What can she do? to take advantage of her status and her position within that institution.

[01:02:08] And I think, you know, she's obviously behind the scenes as we know. we see in the fourth episode, she, has been, making things happen for , the beginnings of the Rebel Alliance through, through Luthen and stuff. But I think, like we're still at a place with her before she's really realized what the, the full, commitment, like what it actually means.

[01:02:33] because like, it's so, it's so interesting, because like I was watching her, she's in like, that fancy car on, Coruscant, like, you know, with a, driver and she's like, you know, stopping at, this antique shop or like a gallery or whatever. You know, and like, she goes home and she has like, her asshole husband you know, throwing a, a dinner party and he's inviting over some

[01:02:52] other senators who Yeah, right.

[01:02:54] The fun people. Like, and you get she's in like an unhappier and, and unsustainable, marriage. And like, we know in however many years from now, like in eight years, like she's on the Rebel Cruiser, giving, the briefing about how they're gonna destroy the second Death Star in Return of the jedi.

[01:03:13] And it's just kind of like the idea that she goes from here to there is like,

[01:03:19] I don't know, like, just thinking about that.

[01:03:20] Like really? yeah. Like, it just, really gets me excited and like there was something about that interaction with her and her husband that felt so, painfully real, like in a way that I think, you know, a lot of us experience in this country where we have friends and family who are maybe you know, they don't share our, political, beliefs.

[01:03:41] And it's sort of like, at what point do you. Stop hanging around them. Like, I really hope that, this season ends with like Mon Mothma divorcing , that like man, -bunned

[01:03:53] BRACEY: You want, you wanna hang out with the, the MAGA people. You do it on your own time. Not my turn.

[01:04:01] JOSH: No, but like, I mean, it is really interesting, like the institutional, that Mon Mothma wields is still valuable, for the nascent, rebels at this point. Right. So something that happens off screen in the original Star Wars, there's that scene on the Death Star where, Tarkin walks in and he's like, , the emperor just dissolved the Senate, Right?

[01:04:22] MURRAY: Hmm.

[01:04:23] JOSH: And it's like, that's a huge fucking deal. So my question is, so it also seems like he didn't feel like he, he could completely throw away even the superficial trappings of a democracy until he had, the Death star, right? Because otherwise, like, why, maintain the illusion of, the Senate for so long. so what I'm really interested in is like, does Mon Mothma go full rebel then when the Senate is dissolved or, does she make that choice while there still is something for her to lose?

[01:04:57] MICKEY: The, um, well, what I

[01:04:58] think is interesting, if you read about the, the, uh, what they're gonna do with the show timeline wise, from my understanding with the two seasons of 12 episodes each is, it's gonna go, it's gonna span five years and literally, from what I've heard, end right where row one picks up, Right.

[01:05:13] Um, which

[01:05:14] is immediately right before Star Wars. So we, I mean, we're talking about this

[01:05:17] show's gonna end days before Palpatine dissolves the Senate. So that's what we're gonna

[01:05:21] see.

[01:05:21] We're gonna see Palpatine. Yeah.

[01:05:23] JOSH: so, she does go full rebel, before the Senate's dissolved because we know that from Rogue One.

[01:05:29] MICKEY: What I find interesting with the, um, with what Mon Mothma is Wind doing for the Rebels in the Senate, and then maybe this idea of too, maybe it's like gonna be this mayor image with, um, Scarif and the Death Star. Is she, her goal is to funnel money. It's like, again, like the amazing realism this show is that like, you know, whatever a rebellion needs more than anything.

[01:05:45] It needs supplies, it needs money. You know, that, that was a

[01:05:48] major theme. And when the win that Shakes the Barley is we got, we have to allow ourselves with the, with the small business owner to get money for a rebellion. Like that's what mamma is. She's the money funder. At the same time, it seems like what probably Palpatine is doing is, is also funneling money to the Death Star.

[01:06:02] So you have these two things, and I, and I, and I get the sense of what, again, if you talk about like what, you know, playing around with this idea of, and fashion or whatever right now, what the Senate is and why the Senate exists is that, you know, palpatine, people like him get the power based on the petite, you know, not even on the bourgeoisie on the actual rich people.

[01:06:20] So I think at a certain point he has to keep them happy and,

[01:06:23] and feeling like they're somehow responsible. And that's what the Senate, you know, I'm sure there's no people representing the working class people, the Senate. It is all just her husband, I think. I don't think they really say in the fourth episode, but I read that he's supposed to be a senator too.

[01:06:35] And like

[01:06:35] clearly the idea is like the Senate's just a playground. Yeah. It's just a playground for, for the rich and famous almost type of thing. And then once Palpatine is able, that's what he needs the rich people for, for his money, for his Death Star, okay, I got the Death Star. I don't need the money now. I don't actually have to mess with the rich people that actually have this ultimate power anymore.

[01:06:54] BRACEY: I, I can't wait to see their, the show that focuses on the, all the political inside stuff. Uh, they're gonna call it, Wext Wing.

[01:07:07] JOSH: Not even sure I get it. What is, what is wex?

[01:07:11] BRACEY: winging and together

[01:07:13] a We

[01:07:14] Wing. They're gonna call Wext

[01:07:16] Wing

[01:07:16] MICKEY: We're gonna get a

[01:07:17] walk and talk with Mon Mothma at at some point,

[01:07:18] right?

[01:07:19] JOSH: I make it even worse by making you explain?

[01:07:21] BRACEY: it's

[01:07:21] so, it was, it was,

[01:07:22] dead. It was dead on arrival. It's alright.

[01:07:25] JOSH: So, you know what's crazy? The creator of, House of Cards wrote at least a couple episodes of this show. So, we are getting that.

[01:07:33] So we know from the trailers that, Saw Guerra, he is gonna be in this show.

[01:07:37] I don't know to what, extent, but one of the things that I'm really interested to see how this show handles is that, schism within the rebels over, their tactics. And I wonder where Luthen is going to fall, on that line. Because like, you know, um, right now he seems more like he'd be in like, , the Saw Guerra sort of like, you know, this is a war.

[01:07:59] We have to treat it like a war mindset, though. It is interesting because he does, he is between these, these two worlds. Like he literally has, two identities. So it'll be interesting. It sort of seems like almost , he's the go between, between the Saws of this galaxy and the Mon Mothmas of this galaxy.

[01:08:20] Like he needs to satisfy the needs of those who are, you know, working within , the quote unquote legitimate institutions. And also, he clearly knows literally the situation on the ground and he's sort of like the go between. So, so I just, I just really wonder where Saw factors in and I just really wanna see a scene between Saw Guerra and, Luthen.

[01:08:47] I think that, that'll kind of bring the house down.

[01:08:50] MURRAY: Yeah. that would be exciting.

[01:08:52] BRACEY: Up until those, these last four episodes, I had no desire to see anything, anything about the political world of Star Wars . Like, I could not have cared less. In fact, I would've run away pretty fast. Actually, this might be not entirely true. I did like in, uh, Obi-Wan, um, uh, uh, getting to see a little bit of, uh, of, uh, Princess Leia's um, uh, a world, uh, but like, I just wasn't as interesting, but us talking about like how this, like what are the political ramifications?

[01:09:25] How will these things play out, uh, uh, through the lens of this show. I'm just excited because I, I'm, I, I actually care where I didn't before.

[01:09:33] MICKEY: Say, I just don't know if you guys saw like a, back when the show was announced, I posted the, the scene the best, the best scene from The Wind that shakes the barley, um, where it was a movie filled with like intense action of ambush scenes. The best scene is basically the small, the like the local business owner who is supportive of the cause, so has been funding and given money to the rep, to the rebels.

[01:09:56] Um, was um, decided to like stiff a local widow out on some money and he's also a landlord and like threw her out cuz she didn't have rent. And like the rebel, like the half of the, the, you know, Irish rebellion that is, um, socialist was like, um, Like arrested him and threw him in jail. And then the other half, that's kind of like the realist half that just wants to win, let him go.

[01:10:17] And it's just this intense scene of these two sides just arguing and, and you know, the way it's shot and that the sound overlap and everything makes it part of the reason's great. But also like just this theme of like, we need his money to win and the other half being like, he's doing the thing we're fighting against, you know, like, and we have to be like purist in a sense.

[01:10:36] And that's like again, be interest to see if this is where we're going with like as Josh is saying, like, this saw your, uh, Luthen. Like if that's where we're gonna head, where we're gonna be like, you know, saw your tactics are upsetting Mon Mamo who's giving us our money, you know, type of thing. And sa being, well that's not who cares, you know, So Yeah. It's very interesting to see if they

[01:10:53] really play with these like deeper, like complicated things. Yeah.

[01:10:56] JOSH: no. I mean, I think you're exactly right. Like, I think that that's exactly , the conflict and the scene that, um, we are probably going to get, between those two characters. And, like, I don't know, man, like, I'm just really, really excited, to see how the show, handles that.

[01:11:12] Like one thing that I do wanna say, before we, kind of wind down here is, you know, we keep talking about the nuance and the slow burn and the subtlety. But this show also does action really, really well. Like, that third episode, that whole end sequence, like that, crescendo of the bungled arrest and like they surround the warehouse and stuff.

[01:11:31] That shootout in the warehouse was so, was so cool because they did this very unique thing where, I mean, again, like, I don't know exactly what the warehouse was for, like, what it was, like, what all the machinery was, but there are these like heavy chain things like hanging from the ceiling.

[01:11:46] And then, one of the chains snapped, like, like it created this, threat for this set piece that I'd never really seen, like this huge like network of like really heavy things that were held up, by chains in this warehouse were like randomly snapping and falling down everywhere.

[01:12:03] And it was like really, really tense. And I was like, that is really fucking cool. like, I don't know what it is exactly, but I understand it enough, to see what's going on. And it's like, it's just like a kind of a threat that I thought was like really, visually interesting and unique and something I'd never seen before.

[01:12:17] And it like created like a kind of attention in like a shootout that I'd never really seen before. I don't know if,

[01:12:22] MURRAY: I th Well,

[01:12:23] JOSH: uh, you know, like that's an illusion to another film or a thing that I'm, I'm, just missing.

[01:12:28] MURRAY: I, it was like cool because it's like one of the few times that I could think of where we don't see like the, the heroes like fully in control of everything, you know? Like they really were flying by the seat of their pants, you know? He like set off a charge. To protect himself, which then had a chain reaction.

[01:12:49] And it was just like seeing them have to like, think on their feet to try to figure this out and sneak around. It had like a little bit of like a three 10 to, um, vibe except for like the whole town wasn't against them, but they're like having to sneak through everything and like come out the other

[01:13:03] side.

[01:13:04] Like, it was like definitely exciting and I think it was like, it was interesting because I never, you never get the feeling in other Star Wars movie too much. Like at least I don't that of the danger of a situation. Like, you know, I, I have the story when we talk about Empire Strikes back, like even when Luke like tries to kill himself, it didn't, to me it never like registered like a danger aspect cuz it's like, I, maybe I was too young when I first saw it and now it's just, I've seen it a million times, but this is like, oh no, they're like flying by the sea of their pants.

[01:13:36] They're trying to make this up. They're trying to find exits or make exits. It's like, it had kind of like a western feel like, um, to me at least. I thought it was like really cool, but it was just more of them, almost like the, the vibe of them trying not to panic while panicking to get out of

[01:13:53] there and

[01:13:54] JOSH: sure.

[01:13:54] MURRAY: out.

[01:13:55] I thought that was like really cool.

[01:13:56] BRACEY: I was just thinking about, uh, uh, the danger, uh, kind of what, uh, Murray was saying. What, uh, you had said, Josh just. Of the, of the danger, uh, that they're really leaning into here and just like starting to build the tension and like ar like they're using the set, uh, uh, sets, set, designed to build the tension.

[01:14:18] Uh, they're using the circumstance, uh, uh, uh, they're building the tension in so many beautiful ways, in so many areas. Like oh, oh, when you're in, oh, when you're actually on like an empire ship and uh, was like the last episode, I can't even remember at this point, but, uh, uh, there was like a lady officer, uh, was trying to be like, gain access to the information and you're basically just like watching the sexism within the, within the empire play out.

[01:14:44] And it's just like one of the things that ultimately you can be like, this is part of the reason why your ass is going down because you can't hold your shit together cuz you, you can't, like, you can't appreciate the people who are trying to do, uh, what they're trying to do In the end though, you know, granted that she was possibly, uh, and probably a revel, but still like, uh, uh, the idea that these tensions are growing in all these different ways and, uh, they're showing in different ways where this tension is and how it's leading to this larger story.

[01:15:15] I'm really loving it.

[01:15:16] JOSH: There was something in that third episode as well, speaking of really great ways of raising the tension, the tactic of the banging,

[01:15:23] MURRAY: Yeah, that was. really cool.

[01:15:25] JOSH: so when I thought it was so, kind of illuminating how, when Sarn, or Cyril, Space Richard Spencer, he, he's like, you know, what are they doing?

[01:15:34] And the other guy's, like, this is intimidation. Like they're, trying to intimidate us, what I thought it was was like, no. It's like they're

[01:15:42] MURRAY: the

[01:15:42] alarm.

[01:15:43] JOSH: Yeah. The whole town is like, hey, everyone heads up. Like, the cops are here, so do whatever you gotta do.

[01:15:48] But I just thought, like the way that they read what they were doing, They interpreted it through the most,

[01:15:55] MURRAY: We're the big dog. Like,

[01:15:57] so they're just trying to scare us. like they weren't seeing any practicality in it.

[01:16:01] JOSH: Yeah, exactly. Like they saw, the most like hostile interpretation of what they were doing, when what they were actually doing was trying to warn each other, for survival, reasons or for like, you know, like just to like, protect themselves.

[01:16:16] I mean, at least

[01:16:17] that's how I read it.

[01:16:18] MICKEY: I don't think so. That's not

[01:16:20] MURRAY: I

[01:16:20] MICKEY: all.

[01:16:21] MURRAY: I read it like a warning system

[01:16:23] and to me that like amplified,

[01:16:26] MICKEY: That's what they're doing. They, they can't shoot 'em. They can't attack 'em. But this one thing they have, this is the one thing they have, ring the bells, let 'em know this is our place. You come here and stop around. But this is us.

[01:16:36] This is

[01:16:36] ours.

[01:16:37] MURRAY: no. Okay.

[01:16:38] MICKEY: and I think again, it ties into the theme of like this, the rebellion starting the empire seeing this rebellion starting, and this is, this is one of those, You're, we're seeing one of those, like in whatever way possible we have, this is our thing, we're gonna, we're gonna bang on the pans and, you know, let 'em know this is our town.

[01:16:53] MURRAY: Interesting. I,

[01:16:54] uh, I took it the same way that Josh did and to me it amplified the betrayal, um, because it showed the whole town was in it together. And then this one guy. Because he was jealous, like sold out somebody when he's like, the whole town seems to rally together. So that's in, That's a very cool, like, take Mickey.

[01:17:14] I like

[01:17:15] JOSH: Well, Mickey, along those lines, like, I was curious, you know, if that, tactic was an allusion to anything specific, like either in the real world or, you know, in in some other media.

[01:17:26] MICKEY: Oh

[01:17:26] yeah. I, I say that's like straight outta

[01:17:28] Dublin in the seventies and 80.

[01:17:30] MURRAY: Yeah. I I definitely wanna research that cuz that's very interesting. Like, cuz I didn't see, I didn't even think of that Mickey, to be honest with you. thought like, I didn't see the, the, like the cop people, like

[01:17:43] actually giving useful exposition and explaining to us what was actually happening. I took it as Josh did like to say like that the, almost like they're hubris of of, uh, the thinking that like, oh no, what They're just trying to intimidate us.

[01:17:59] Like, like missing the true point of it because they're so like, full of themselves.

[01:18:05] So that's, that's cool.

[01:18:06] MICKEY: I wanna know. Intimidation, passing, you know, just snotty us almost to a point of just like, Fuck you, here we are. Bring her in. Yeah. You know, you can't, this isn't illegal. This isn't illegal, you

[01:18:17] know?

[01:18:17] MURRAY: okay. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:18:18] MICKEY: and

[01:18:18] yeah, yeah, Again, to me that's just straight out of like, you know, did I say Dublin?

[01:18:22] I didn't mean Dublin, but straight out of Belfast and,

[01:18:24] um, Yeah. In like the seventies and eighties, you know,

[01:18:27] type of thing. You know, Or like, or like, you know, just like throwing

[01:18:32] fireworks on the street in front of cops or something like that. Like,

[01:18:35] MURRAY: Oh, okay. Yeah. I didn't know that

[01:18:37] these were like actual, like tactics or anything like that. That's interesting.

[01:18:42] BRACEY: Yeah, but I, I feel like

[01:18:43] I've seen, I'm, I'm ki I feel like I'm kind of in

[01:18:47] between, uh,

[01:18:48] uh, uh, both

[01:18:49] interpretations on this one like that I, I feel

[01:18:51] like,

[01:18:53] I feel like it, it is their way of fighting

[01:18:55] back and, and like it is their way of

[01:18:59] being, like

[01:19:00] this

[01:19:00] is what

[01:19:00] we got. But also that wasn't started.

[01:19:03] it feels like something

[01:19:04] that they've been doing for a

[01:19:06] little while. And those guys who

[01:19:07] came down those blues, they were green. Like they hadn't been part of this town. They don't

[01:19:13] know what these these things mean. So it

[01:19:16] was the, like, it was misinterpreted, but ultimately that, that was being used, that form of was being used for a form of

[01:19:26] communication. But that form of communication wasn't necessarily

[01:19:30] directly towards the police, even though it

[01:19:32] might have been initially used for that. it.

[01:19:35] feels like people are here. Y'all know

[01:19:39] that none of us here are doing everything legit.

[01:19:42] So like, everybody, like,

[01:19:44] yo, the cops are

[01:19:45] coming. Like, and, and they took it not as like they're

[01:19:49] warning everybody, but they

[01:19:51] took it as like, as like, Oh, they're trying to tell us to get

[01:19:55] outta here. Like, they're trying to,

[01:19:56] they're

[01:19:56] MURRAY: They're trying to scare us,

[01:19:57] BRACEY: they're trying to scare us.

[01:19:58] Yeah.

[01:19:59] MICKEY: I think there, there is a sense too where if

[01:20:01] you think like that is what they're, they're,

[01:20:02] they're saying like,

[01:20:03] do you hear how many rings there are? Like there's, there's you. 12 of you Right.

[01:20:08] And there's hundreds of us ringing.

[01:20:10] so so if, if things go

[01:20:12] bad, just just know that,

[01:20:15] BRACEY: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:20:16] MICKEY: Yeah.

[01:20:16] BRACEY: And, And, that is exactly what

[01:20:18] happened.

[01:20:19] they get pounced on, even

[01:20:21] though it was the town, like the

[01:20:22] town

[01:20:23] didn't do that.

[01:20:24] Like it wasn't

[01:20:25] the, the town that set up the, uh, uh, the actual rebellion. But it is,

[01:20:30] I, I think Mickey, you're, you're spot

[01:20:32] on. And that's like

[01:20:33] this is the sound of

[01:20:35] rebellion here. And this is what our protagonist was born out of this town in Rebell, in rebellion. Like, and, and he like, yeah, he internalized a lot of,

[01:20:48] of the, of the street blood of like, yeah. What, what it is to be in that

[01:20:52] area and what it is to rebel and what it is to live on

[01:20:55] the fringes and what it is to fight for your rights in, in an oppressed,

[01:21:00] MURRAY: Yeah, cuz like when we first kind of meet him, he's, he's neither here nor there, right? Like, he's not fully in or fully out of the rebellion. He's just caring about himself and making his way through it. And so that involves kind of rebellious act like, like ASCA tactics, like stealing that, that drive and everything like that.

[01:21:20] But it was always to a means, to an end. It wasn't for the sake of rebellion. At least that's the way I took it. So like now he's kind of getting deeper into it where he was just kind of like, obviously rebelling, but not in like an official capacity. You know, like more just like self preservation. And now he's kind of getting like brought up to like the major leagues of the rebell.

[01:21:45] MICKEY: Also, I almost feel like too, what they're saying is the, there isn't a rebellion. Like there's actually not a rebellion. He could be a rebel in at this

[01:21:51] point. We are

[01:21:52] literally

[01:21:52] seeing it, you know, form. And

[01:21:55] he's just part of that, you know, formation. You know, obviously there's a people maybe three steps ahead of him as we see, you know, you got Luthen like three steps ahead and you got those people on the other planet at two steps ahead and then he's just, you know, he's just third gen.

[01:22:07] But it's there, you know, and that's, yeah. And again, like, I think what I'm saying too is like, it'll be interesting theme that looks like maybe the show plays into is like a rebellion's gonna originally, at least originally recruit criminal esque type of people on these edge and margins who have, you know, like that's just, that's just where it's gonna form from.

[01:22:25] Except also I guess we're seeing it form from Mfma too. And I guess that that'll be the interesting right relationship maybe in this show is the the mfma end of both, of where her roots come from, and then probably where her, her tactics, you know, come from as they opposed to, um, the roots that saw and, um, Cassian come from and how that's gonna impact their tactics.

[01:22:47] And maybe that will be, you know, something they explore.

[01:22:49] BRACEY: I'm so excited that

[01:22:50] this is a longer show. This is a

[01:22:54] longer

[01:22:55] MICKEY: Yeah.

[01:22:56] Well I'm glad I saw it was 12. I was like, if this is 10.

[01:22:59] BRACEY: Yeah,

[01:23:00] MURRAY: Or eight, you know, like they've been doing some

[01:23:02] short runs of shit. Yeah.

[01:23:04] BRACEY: Yeah. But the, just the opener, like how much time they spend on the open is so good.

[01:23:10] It's so good. It's so good. Like every, everything, everything about this show starting out is like, it's like not it, it's telling you on its face. Like, Hey, we're gonna take time on this. Uh, a lot of this is gonna be in the subtext.

[01:23:25] A lot of this is gonna be a slow role. It may not be your bag. It's alright if it's not your bag before, For those of you who who've been dreaming for this day for a while, like, you gotta, you got a huge treat ahead of you. It is great.

[01:23:39] JOSH: Yeah. Let's move on , to final closing thoughts and what we hope for the season. Maybe,

[01:23:44] BRACEY: I mean, uh, the same way I began, I just, I, I really, really appreciate the time and consideration that they're applying to telling a story like this. Um, and just the, an like, like I said before, to me it feels like this is the first time, uh, Star Wars is really attempting to be sci sci-fi, um, which was really awesome, an awesome feeling.

[01:24:05] So I'm really looking forward to seeing even more how, uh, these rebels are, are coming together. How, how different places of this galaxy are being affected by this. How they choose to, uh, portray this, uh, uh, uh, not just the, the oppression, but uh, uh, just the exploitation on a, on a, on a galactic level, um, in a way that we can see like just the effects and like the other realities kind of laid bare.

[01:24:32] So, uh, so, you know, we can, we can have, continue to have this conversation cuz uh, uh, through a medium like this. And with an IP like this, uh, uh, them going so hard into what they're going into, into the subject material and like making it so it's hard for people to kind of hide in, in some of these, uh, uh, these areas where they feel like they could be justified, uh, holding the beliefs that they hold, uh, and still like the, of the property and say they still like Star Wars.

[01:25:00] It's like, it's gonna be really difficult for you to find solace if, uh, uh, if you haven't ever challenged your, uh, your world views and, uh, you're gonna be hit with something like this in, in the Star Wars universe. Like, it's, it's gonna be part of the lore and the part of the way that people even approach the ip, which I think this is like what I feel like to some extent, Ryan Johnson was a, a, a, trying to do, uh, Uh, to like, just bring us to this level of like, what are we utilizing this medium for?

[01:25:33] Uh, what are we utilizing this, uh, this IP for? Um, if, if it is, if it's not to just like really a really just kind of critically view some of these questions that, uh, can only be answered in a way that we just explore the conditions. Just great. I'm excited. rant.

[01:25:52] JOSH: Well said.

[01:25:54] MURRAY: I'm really excited for it. I, I wasn't, um, until I started watching it and then I realized that this is like a type of Star Wars I care about. Um, and that could just be from burnout of, um, tattooing on the Skywalker Saga and how you have like these, an infinite like, amount of galaxies and you only hear about like the same four people on the same two planets.

[01:26:17] Like that like, drives me crazy. So this is like really exciting. Um, I'm really like fascinated, um, about like life in occupied lands and, you know, um, that. Helps me understand, like, this is gonna sound so cheesy and forced, but it's like so sincere. Like it helps me understand like my biblical studies to get more and more knowledge of what life is like for people in occupied lands and the rise of rebellions and leaders that form, and people that are like the misconceptions of certain leaders.

[01:26:55] Like it's just like, it's really cool. And then how, uh, both sides of the situation thinks the other side is the bad guy. Like, it's just like, um, very interesting stuff. So I'm excited to see that level of complexity in Star Wars. And like Bracey says, it makes it feel like real actual science fiction rather than like a space opera, you know, with, um, a big foot and laser swords.

[01:27:19] So it's like, so that's really exciting to me, the act, but, and then just like the fact that it's like a lot of locations, it seems like, and not really that much, um, like sets or green screen or anything like that really adds to it. There's nothing that's better than like real light hitting real objects.

[01:27:37] Like that's like, um, really cool. And then just like seeing like this rebellion that we've known for since before all of us were born, uh, in the Star Wars universe, to see it actually like start to like come to fruition is like really gnarly to see. And like the, the different like, um, Levels of, I don't even know how to explain it.

[01:28:06] It's not like, it's not black, white, or gray. It's not good guy, bad guy, But just like, yeah, I guess like what Bracey and Mickey and everyone was saying, like the nuance and the subtext, like where it's, there's not a clean cut path. And then like Mickey was alluding to, maybe we're gonna see fact, not like factions, but like fractions in the rebellion where it's, you're gonna have people going for the same cause fighting about how to get there.

[01:28:31] And I think it could just be really, really cool. Like, um, yeah, so I'm, I'm excited for it. I'm excited that it's gonna be a show to watch for more than like four or five episodes, like some of the other one, um, shows that they did. So I'm really excited. It feels like a nice break from Star Wars while still exploring all the possibilities of Star Wars and so I'm excited.

[01:28:54] I think it'll be really good.

[01:28:55] JOSH: No, totally. , I thought some of what you said was really interesting and beautiful actually, particularly how it's informing your understanding of, , some of your, biblical studies and also like really like getting into the psychology of people who believe things, who engage with, with other groups of people who believe diametrically opposed things and how they, they interact and what, conditions in the world are such that allows, those things to get that way.

[01:29:22] , Mickey closing thoughts and hopes for the show.

[01:29:25] MICKEY: Yeah. My number one thought just based on doing this episode. And what we got to and what we didn't get to is this show's so good. I think we need to do a One Heat Minute style podcast for, for, uh, Andor. Um,

[01:29:38] we literally could just,

[01:29:39] JOSH: so for anyone who doesn't know,

[01:29:40] MICKEY: is,

[01:29:41] yeah,

[01:29:42] JOSH: I know there's

[01:29:43] so much Yeah. For anyone who doesn't know what Mickey's talking about. We go minute by minute. We do a whole episode about one minute

[01:29:50] of the show.

[01:29:51] MICKEY: Yeah.

[01:29:52] we could do it. This show has it .But yeah. my first thing like this is it, this is, this is like a real Star Wars growing up with us as good TV as it gets. But then I think there's a realism that hits too with that, where it's, Well, I guess for me it just kind of plays on.

[01:30:07] For what TV is 2022 and this is like, this is good tv. I think there is, to me something I'm still ranting and raven about this idea that we're, the, the tv, the good TV we're getting nowadays took the wrong lessons. I actually think from the, the, The Sopranos to Mad Men era, and actually it can be too serious, too doer, um, doesn't pick up on the humorous, doesn't pick up on the, um, uh, uh, what's the word I'm looking for?

[01:30:33] Like almost, um, surreality of those shows. Um, but then again, I don't know how that would

[01:30:38] play in the Star Wars universe anyway, so maybe it is okay just having your kind of standard like, you know, like, you know, you, we broke from the madman era and the American era, where like that's a good procedural show that doesn't really, and and still good with character, but this doesn't kind of play around with these kind of like, to me, the, the surrealism and humor that actually made the Sopranos madman era good.

[01:30:59] Um, but that's a whole, that's my issue. I guess I'd say for what good TV can be nowadays, this, this just shows as good as anything, whether it's in the Star Wars universe or not. And I guess you can make the argument then, like, why did you have to make it in Star Wars universe? Why can't this just be its own story?

[01:31:15] But I actually think, and I I would've said that in the past, except for what this show can do, is like, well, what Star Wars did so well once Lucas made, it was the Imperial uniform, the Imperial ships, the iconography, um, that they were able to create like the, the, the production, the, uh, production value that was perfect.

[01:31:33] Somehow they just tapped into. A gold mine of everything looking so great to under grid the story with, in terms of its, you know, production, um, uh, build that, this show, like why, why reinvent the wheel, right? We can tell this story without having to like, we, we have these like icon things to actually like, will put people in a psychological space to like now do this next extra interesting thing.

[01:31:58] And that's what I'm really excited for this going forward. Um, and I'm really excited cuz I actually think for the first time, this actually might be really the first truly the real political, political, obviously the original series was playing around in pian, like, and there was something there, you know, I think Lucas was trying something with the political timeframe, but this one's actually getting, I guess the, the definition would be nerdy about it.

[01:32:17] Like really into the nitty gritty of it. Um, to me, like again, this idea of this fascism and then this idea of how

[01:32:22] it's playing into the, um, the material world. Like how the mining operations, like when you read about what Nazi Germany's plan was for, I think they called it like the li

[01:32:31] steam, like how they were gonna mi like Terraform Europe.

[01:32:34] Like that's what we're seeing. We're, we're seeing the li team play out in the Star Wars universe across these planets. And it's, it's really to me, politically deep and really great. And I'm super excited for this.

[01:32:49] JOSH: No. Absolutely. Like, I'm with you, Mickey. Like there's some, some stuff about, how this show exists in the, the TV landscape that I definitely want, to deal with at some point. One thing I will say though is that what's interesting about this show is that like sure like it, be lacking that sort of like surreal quality. But what it does have is it has the Star Wars of it all. It's like, it's that, but it's in the Star Wars universe, right? So that is like sort of maybe why this kind of works, because it's not just a self serious and depressing dower show that, takes itself so seriously.

[01:33:23] It's that, but it's also a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away with like, you know, weird, creatures and, Robots that run outta battery when they lie and stuff. And the other thing too that I think is interesting is that, you know, why make this show in the Star Wars universe and why not, just make it its own thing, Like you kind of started to touch on it.

[01:33:40] But because Star Wars is so iconic and so established, there's something really, , potent and kind of subversive by getting the keys to that car and doing this, right?

[01:33:52] Like there's, there's something more, powerful, by having that iconography and like the mythic weight of what Star Wars is and using that to tell this story within the context of that.

[01:34:05] you know, and kind of Bracey was saying, like, I don't know how many minds this show is gonna change, but I do think having this story happen in the context of a Star Wars show will, make some people more, open to hearing certain ideas or certain lines of thought then maybe they would have otherwise.

[01:34:27] I mean, like, there are people watching this show who would never watch a show like this if it wasn't Star Wars.

[01:34:33] Um, and I think that, something to that. My hope for the show, I think I kind of said it. I want, , more Mon Mothma. More Luthen and just really more of everything they're doing.

[01:34:43] Like I'm really, kind of excited. It feels good to have a show that I'm just like genuinely excited, to see what it's gonna be next. And I don't really know or have much expectation, um, like even with, Kenobi, which I loved. but like the story of that show was very over signified.

[01:35:01] Like we knew going in, at least like the shape or the vague outline of, what it was that we were going to see. We just didn't necessarily know the details or the particulars of it. So there was something like, kind of like predetermined about, that show. And like, this show is working in a whole different, register.

[01:35:19] Like it's, doing its own thing and flying free and there's something kind of thrilling and exciting to, , not really know what the show is going to do every week. And yeah, I just wanna wrap it up by saying I hope that this show kind of upsets a lot of people and makes them uncomfortable in all the best ways.

[01:35:40] Um, so we are not going to be reacting to every single episode of this show, week to week. We are gonna be releasing normal episodes, , every Monday instead of Wednesday. But we will, return after the season one finale of Andor wraps up. We are going to do a reaction show, , reacting to the entire season as a whole.

[01:35:59] So, look out for that I guess in November if my math is correct. But, um, I'm really excited that we started this ride. I'm excited about where it's gonna go. And if you like what you heard, we are trashcompod.com, where you can find transcripts of this episode and all our other episodes.

[01:36:15] And we are trashcompod across all social media and we will see you on the next one.

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Sometimes I make things.

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