Sept. 21, 2022



Before ANDOR, we close the book on the last Disney+ series

As ANDOR debuts we are pleased to present another bonus episode from our cousin podcast, THE SECRET ORIGINS OF MINT CONDITION, where we did a final wrap-up on the OBI-WAN KENOBI show a month after its final episode aired.

NOTE: Please excuse the audio quality of the intro, it's not indicative of the rest of the episode!


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[00:00:00] JOSH: Welcome to Trash Compactor. I'm Josh. And this week is a bonus episode. Once again, we're presenting an episode that was a part of The Secret Origins of Mint Condition, our cousin podcast.

[00:00:12] And this was a wrap up of, Obi-Wan Kenobi, um, after the conclusion of the series, about a month after it finished and ahead of the debut of the next star war series, that's dropping. Andor , I thought that this would be a good conversation , to post in the Trash Compactor feed, because it touched on a lot of things that we didn't get to in the Obi-Wan Kenobi wrap up that we did the reaction episode to episode six.

[00:00:40] And I want to thank James, the host of Secret Origins, who I happen to have here with me. Hello, James.

[00:00:47] JAMES: Hello.

[00:00:48] JOSH: First off, thanks again so much for letting me repost these Star Wars episodes that you did for Secret Origins on the Trash Compactor feed. I really appreciate it.

[00:00:58] JAMES: Oh, no, I appreciate you reposting them.

[00:01:00] I mean, they're, they're, I I'm happy. You have been a part of those conversations and I'm, I'm happy to, uh, spread whatever star wars, knowledge and thoughts we have to anyone else who wants to listen. So thank you.

[00:01:10] JOSH: So I just wanted to record a brief intro before we go into the episode that we did for Secret Origins about Obi-Wan, because since then, the making of show about Obi-Wan Kenobi has been released on Disney Plus I think it was called Return of a Jedi? Does that sound right?

[00:01:27] JAMES: That sounds right to me.

[00:01:28] JOSH: What did you think of it? Was there anything that you saw in it or anything that anyone said that, that, that stuck out?

[00:01:34] JAMES: I loved the whole thing.

[00:01:35] I, I feel like it was a little, I would've liked this be a little longer, uh, I know Disney Plus seems to do they're behind the scenes things. Um, a lot shorter these days, cuz I know when they first started doing like behind the scenes of. First is Mandalorian. We got like nine episodes and now we're kind of getting just one or two episodes.

[00:01:52] But aside from the, and I, I only want it to be longer because I really enjoyed everything that the actors and the people behind the scenes were saying. Um, I especially enjoyed that. A lot of the thoughts you've spoken about on your podcast, you know, reaction shows to the whole thing were expressed by the, by the people making.

[00:02:09] And so I'm glad we like, kind of picked up on that. And, um, and what we discussed and sort of the wrap up of Obi-Wan Kenobi. I mean, aside from the fact of all those thoughts that we got to experience and, and see the actors actually say, um, I was also happy that one of the things we talked about in this podcast, Ewan McGregor talked about directly about the fact that Obi-Wan, why he left Darth Vader live.

[00:02:33] Like it came out, like he said that his reasoning and I thought the reasoning was kind of in line with what we were talking about in the episode. So that was sort of nice to hear that, you know, everything we were thinking they were saying, they were saying was very, um, I guess, you know, Fulfilling, I guess in a way or no.

[00:02:49] JOSH: Yeah, it's very satisfying to hear that satisfying on the right track. Like we were it's like we picked up what was in there, like we weren't reading into it. Yeah.

[00:02:58] JAMES: And I would say, and I think we said this on the podcast, on the wrap up podcast, you're about to repost, but. Maybe you even said it, but this really showed me that as, as much as I love Alec Guinness, Ewan McGregor is Obi-Wan Kenobi. I mean, I'm sorry, anyone listening, who might be taking offense to that, but his joy and enthusiasm during, you know, this making of special was, was really genuine and he really enjoyed the role. I think he really is the essence of Obi-Wan Kenobi

[00:03:25] JOSH: I agree with you too. And there was this, uh, really stunning moment.

[00:03:28] Uh, they did this really interesting thing with the volume where they played clips from the films on the volume and they filmed the actors, watching them sort of larger than life. I think it even starts out you have Ewan McGregor looking up at Alec Guinness's first appearance as Obi-Wan in A New Hope.

[00:03:47] And it's just this love that they all have for those movies and those characters. And I was also really, I really loved seeing how much love and affection and, really, gratefulness, that not just Ewan eMcGregor, but also Hayden Christensen has for these iconic characters that they play and are, and sort of inhabit like, and seeing them like their relationship.

[00:04:13] They really seemed like they have such love and affection for each other, that, that, you know, mirrors the relationship that their characters have.

[00:04:23] And I just thought that like the, the love that they had for each other and just the... how thankful they are to have the opportunity to revisit this after almost 20 years and be those characters again together and how special that was like, you know, you really feel the love in this one. I thought,

[00:04:43] JAMES: No, definitely. And it's kind of like, you know, whatever fandom thinks of the prequels.

[00:04:48] And I, I understand also like the prequels were some people's Star Wars that they, as they said many times in the making of, and, and also we obviously we know from fandom, but, you know, I think like with a chance also for the two of them, Ewan and Hayden to, you know, really dig into the characters, like you said, I guess, you know, we've talked about on our podcast and your podcast, my time, like George Lucas, Not interested in them being overly emotive or deep in the acting process of being those characters.

[00:05:15] But now they got to, to do that. So, which is very rare for an actor, I guess, to get a second bite in an apple, let alone like Hayden Christensen, which I think, um, I think he took a lot of harsh criticism and I I'm just speculating. I think it was a really gave him probably some closure on the whole Anakin Skywalker role.

[00:05:34] JOSH: No, I agree. so I don't know if they say it in this documentary specifically, but it has come out subsequently that Deborah Chow the director said when she was hired, Darth Vader wasn't in the story. And she said that, you know, she just felt, it was really important that if we're gonna revisit this period with Ewan as Obi-Wan, that she just felt like it was really important to have Hayden involved.

[00:06:00] And that's kind of when it became a Vader and Obi-Wan story, or Anakin and Obi-Wan story. Which in retrospect, like, like it's always interesting just hearing the process of how something was arrived at when in retrospect, the end product is like, well, how could it have been any other way? Like, I think I said this in the episode, like this for me is really, is either episode 3.5,

[00:06:26] or the, the alternate episode four, where Obi-Wan is the main story, uh, like these scenes where we see Obi-Wan, learning that Anakin is alive and that he's Vader and confronting him as Vader and letting go of that.

[00:06:40] Like the idea that, that all happens off screen is wild. Now that we've seen it.

[00:06:46] JAMES: Right. Which is, you know, again, I, again, why I kind like the show now that we're thinking about this again, you know, like more time away from it is. It's sort of like the thing I've said about a lot of things in pop culture when they come out is I'm looking for the thing to be something I didn't know I wanted, but now can't imagine not having.

[00:07:04] So I didn't know. I wanted to see the story. I didn't, I didn't know. I wanted to see the moment where, you know, Obi-Wan, realized, or they were still alive or I didn't, I didn't know how much I wanted to see the duel before the dual and the new hope. But now that we have it, I was like, wow, I can't imagine we would've never gotten this.

[00:07:19] This seems strange.

[00:07:20] The other thing that was very satisfying was the thing that Chris, that we spoke on the wrap up and you spoke on the last show.

[00:07:25] They admitted that the emperor talking to Vader made him the Vader that we wanted in, in the new, in the original trilogy. I was like, yes, they did. They said that , that's what their intent was.

[00:07:37] JOSH: Oh yeah. They did say that. No, you're right.

[00:07:40] JAMES: Like we theorized that, that it made the transition from that Darth Vader to the Darth Vader, but that was their intent was to make the transition from this Darth Vader. to that Darth Vader

[00:07:48] JOSH: By the way, I'm just thankful that Disney recognizes that for a lot of people, the making OFS are as much a part of Star Wars for a lot of fans that, you know, they're even going through the trouble to create these behind the scenes looks at these shows.

[00:08:05] JAMES: I wish like the Mandalorian one was like, he got a whole bunch of episodes. I wish I wish this had been at least two or three episodes, but I'm glad they're doing 'em though.

[00:08:12] JOSH: I think you put it, you put it perfectly. That, I didn't know that I needed this and now that we have it, I'm just so thankful that we do have it. And thank you again for allowing me to repost this, wrap up Obi-Wan Kenobi from Secret Origins of Condition.

[00:08:28] And without further ado here is the episode.

[00:08:31] JAMES: Hello everyone. And welcome to another episode of The Secret Origins of Mint Condition. I am one of your hosts, James and with me is Chris.

[00:08:44] CHRIS: Hey, y'all.

[00:08:46] JAMES: And joining us today is a guest who is, uh, the, one of the hosts of the star Trek version of this podcast, but the host of his own podcast, Trash Compactor: A Star Wars Podcast, returning, uh, guests, Josh Bernhard.

[00:09:01] JOSH: Hello there.

[00:09:02] JAMES: And, uh, we're gonna talk about a show that nobody has any thoughts about and no one's ever heard of Obi-Wan Kenobi.

[00:09:07] I

[00:09:07] CHRIS: I say I dunno if anybody's heard of this show, it's

[00:09:08] gonna be tough to find an audience. I think

[00:09:10] JAMES: know, I know. I really wanted to speak about this, this show that nobody's ever had. Any

[00:09:15] CHRIS: really deep dive on this character.

[00:09:17] JAMES: Yeah. Deep. Yeah. Deep dive in this character. So we're, we're, you know, Obi-Wan can be edited.

[00:09:23] What about a month ago from the time of this recording? I guess we spent a month. I think

[00:09:27] a.

[00:09:27] CHRIS: About that.

[00:09:28] JAMES: So we've had, uh, you know, Chris and I have had a chance to, I guess, you know, reflect on it.

[00:09:32] I guess, uh, Chris, I'll open up to you since, uh, last, you know, we spoke a few episodes ago.

[00:09:37] You gave some of your thoughts on the series at the time. So what were, what are your overall thoughts on Obi-Wan?

[00:09:43] CHRIS: enjoyed the hell out of it. Um, I, I really liked it. I thought the, again, I was absolutely . I was absolutely tickled when, uh, when I realized, oh, and for anybody who doesn't know already, it should be obvious, but spoilers ahead. Um, you know, I was absolutely tickled by, by the, the bait and switch they pulled.

[00:10:04] Uh, and instead of this being a Luke story, it was about. so I, I loved that. I thought it tied up a lot of loose ends in terms of why does Leia feel as though Obi-Wan can be trusted with, with the blueprints, for the death star and a new hope? Um, why does she name her son, Ben? Um, there are all these, these reasons that it had also added a dimension to even something that, uh, the three of us talked about in, uh, Josh and.

[00:10:31] Uh, A New Hope episode of Trash Compactor was this notion that like, you know, Alderaan had just been destroyed, but here Leia is instead of grieving and, and mourn she's, she's comforting. Luke who lost, who lost a man who entered his life 23 hours prior. Um, it's now we know it's because she understands what he's lost, even if he doesn't, you know?

[00:10:52] Um, so I, I overall I really, really enjoyed it. Any problems I had came came a little bit earlier in the series. Some of them were tied up, some of them not so much. Um, but I think that as a whole, after I finished watching it, I was like, this is, this is one series I will go back and rewatching its entirety and treat it like a, like a film.

[00:11:12] So I thought it did. I thought it did really, really terrific work. I thought the actors did a lot of the, the heavy lifting. Um, yeah, I really, I just really, really enjoyed it. And I have heard, like, I've heard criticism of it and not that I'm not open to like having some of those conversations, but I, I actually personally don't have any room for.

[00:11:29] Negativity regarding this, regarding this series. And by that, I mean, not criticism, but, but you know, this wasn't Obi-Wan. I know. Or, you know, retcon blah, blah. I just, I don't have the room for the negativity cause I just, I just enjoyed it too much.

[00:11:43] JAMES: Yeah, I'm in agreement with you. Um, Josh you did six episodes on this. You've had some time away from recording about it. So what are your thoughts now having a little bit a month's space since it came out and talked about it last?

[00:11:55] JOSH: Well, we actually only did five episodes because if you recall, uh, Disney plus dropped the first two episodes at once. So there were only five.

[00:12:03] JAMES: Oh, Yes.

[00:12:03] Yes.

[00:12:03] JOSH: Yes. But, I apologize. That's, that's just the pedant in me. um, No, I echo, Chris' sentiments. I, I loved it. I enjoyed the hell out of it.

[00:12:12] I'm glad it exists. I, um, and, just cuz it's top of mind, because it was the last thing you said. there are, you know, things that you could dissect and get a little critical about, but I just don't have the desire to really, delve into that too much. I think, you know, possibly because of the amount of toxicity that exists in the Star Wars fan space, especially online, it could be a reaction to that.

[00:12:40] It, it could also just be, you know, like it's hard to make things and, when you get so much, right, it just seems somehow, unsportsman-like to, to, to focus so much on the like small things you quote unquote got wrong. Um, and again, even like I say, like, like, I don't think that this show, did anything wrong.

[00:13:01] Like any of my, critiques are really, more, quibbles or personal aesthetic things. and actually I do like having had the time away from it to kind of sit with it. And honestly, I don't think my thoughts about it have changed. so much I E. Um, one thing that I will say, Chris, you were talking about how there were some things in this show, particularly with, Leia who was fantastic, by the way, I wanna commend the actor's name.

[00:13:28] Who's um, whose name of course escapes me because I'm turning into an old man and I, I no longer have the capacity to, uh, recall names. Um, but,

[00:13:37] CHRIS: It looks like it was, Vivian Lira Blair

[00:13:40] JOSH: yes, yes. She, she knocked it out of the park. She was,

[00:13:43] CHRIS: a hundred

[00:13:43] JOSH: she was so great. She was so great. And the interaction between her and Ewan McGregor, who, by the way, like this show is the Ewan McGregor show. Like he showed everybody why he is Obi-Wan this is a thing I can't believe I'm about to say he's the definitive Obi-Wan Kenobi now.

[00:14:02] JAMES: I think that's fair though. He's played at the longest. I

[00:14:04] JOSH: He's played it the longest, but he's also it's not just in terms of the, the amount of screen time. Like his, depiction is the richest, the most nuanced. He changes the most. Um, and don't get me wrong. I love Alec Guinness. I love, Bridge Over the River Kwai.

[00:14:18] I love him in Lawrence of Arabia, even though the, the, black face is, is, not so great.

[00:14:23] CHRIS: Putting it lightly. Yeah.

[00:14:24] JOSH: Yeah. I love the BBC version of Tinker Tailor, Soldier Spy, like that's like, one of my all time, favorite. pieces of media in general. So like, so I love me some Alec Guinness and I love the original Star Wars, but, but I would venture to say that this cements Ewan McGregor as the definitive Obi-Wan Kenobi.

[00:14:42] CHRIS: Well, and sometimes we've talked about this in previous episodes about other things that sometimes you need to separate. The artist from the art right. Need to separate the artist from the craft, but there's still part of me that that is sometimes disappointed to learn a thing about, uh, about an artist.

[00:14:57] And, you know, in CA in, in the case of Al Guness, it's that, you know, he regretted playing Obi-Wan Kenobi and, and, and despite how much hate was heaped on the prequels, despite how, uh, difficult that must have been for you and McGregor to deal with. He was excited to come back to this character and he clearly really likes and loves the character.

[00:15:17] And, and for me, that also puts him a step ahead of fair or not, for me personally, that puts him a step ahead of, um, of Alec Guinness as well, because he, he wants to be here. You know, he's the guy who wants to be here at the end of the day. And, and I, and that's something that I really I'll admit. I want that out of, um, the artist to create the, the things I care about, they get into that a lot in, um, in galaxy quest, Right in the movie galaxy quest, they get into, um, you know, just how important it is to some of us that, that, you know, this happened in this episode that happened in that episode and it matters that you get it right.

[00:15:51] And it can be very disillusioning when, when the person that we respect, you know, don't meet your heroes, the person we respect. And we enjoy as this character turns out to, to have that kind of a disconnect with the, the property we so love. So, so yeah, I I'd agree with that assessment that he is, he is the definitive Obi-Wan Kenobi.

[00:16:08] And for me, part of it is the personal behind the scenes stuff, because he also, you know, there was also that element of, um, um, oh gosh, what's her, what's her name? The, the, uh, Moses Ingram who got all that, you know, racist, bullshit, hate, and McGregor was one of the first people to, to

[00:16:26] step up and stand up against it.

[00:16:28] And that matters to me.

[00:16:29] JOSH: he, I think as soon as he heard about it, like he went in his car, he got on his phone, he recorded a video, he sent it to the Star Wars social accounts. And like he said in no uncertain terms, like if you are one of these people, you are not welcome here.

[00:16:42] And that, that was, that was really, um, refreshing to see. And I also have to give, the people running the Star Wars social accounts, a lot of credit, like, it seems like they learned from, their experience in the past years. And they decided that either ignoring it or just, deleting it, wasn't an option and they really had to be proactive and to engage with it, head on and, sort of leave no quarter.

[00:17:07] And that is something that I, I noticed and I really appreciated, um, just a couple other things I wanna say, before I forget, um, similar, to you, Chris, we had mentioned in that episode of Trash Compactor about, , the weirdness of that, moment of Leia consoling Luke, and how, and how Obi-Wan Kenobi, uh, kind of gives that some new context.

[00:17:28] Similarly, in the episode we did on this show about the redemption of Darth Vader. I think, I think I spoke at length about how, one of my main problems with even really answering that question about whether Darth Vader is redeemed or not, is that, that I have a hard time connecting the Hayden Christensen version of Anakin Skywalker with the Darth Vader slash Sebastian Shaw

[00:17:53] the end of Return to the Jedi depiction of the character that we see, in the original, trilogy, essentially like it was hard for me to see, to feel them as the same character in my mind. And, and this show, this show went a long way to unifying the two depictions of the characters in my mind.

[00:18:11] Like now when I watch the original trilogy, uh, before. I don't think I was really ever thinking that that was Hayden Christensen under that suit. But now, , this show kind of bridges the gap for me in a way that I really, I didn't think was even possible or not that it wasn't possible.

[00:18:29] I just never thought it would happen. So it was really nice to see, um, the other thing, like this for me really is sort of like an episode 3.5, like this, this story. Like, if you imagine, the Star Wars movies were made in chronological story order.

[00:18:47] , rather than, first the original trilogy and then the prequel trilogy 20 years later, you know, if you imagine, , the prequels were made first, there's a version of this story where the main character is not Anakin Skywalker. The main character is really Obi-Wan Kenobi.

[00:19:03] And this, series could have been an episode four and actually makes a lot of sense. If you think about how you would have continued writing the story, if you had started at episode 1, 2, 3, . Um, you. You would just feel like the follow up movie would need to depict these moments

[00:19:26] Where Obi-Wan, realizes that Anakin's alive. That is a moment that I never knew how much I needed to see, but then once I saw it, it blows me away that that was not a, part of the saga, the other moment, which I've made a case for on my show.

[00:19:46] And I know I'm jumping around here the moment after, the second duel between Obi-Wan and Vader on that, that like rock planet, when Obi-Wan cuts through Vader's mask and you can see Anakin's face. And, he sees his brother for the first time in however many years and he says, I'm sorry, An akin. For all of it.

[00:20:08] and then Vader says to him, I'm not your failure O Obi-Wan, you didn't kill Anakin I did that se that moment was one of the most, I think, the most emotional, genuinely emotional, and also creepy, moment in all of Star Wars.

[00:20:27] JAMES: Oh, yeah. I, I mean, I, I agree. I mean, to, um, not to, again, pipe up our own episode, but the Redemption of Vader, um, episode that we did like that, I was like our, our thoughts about Vader in what we, I think in that episode, like he he's, I mean, he said he's not re he's not redeemable at the end of Jedi. After what I saw in Kenobi, it just kind reaffirms the thoughts that I had at the end of that episode.

[00:20:48] JOSH: No, that's true. Also they really, they doubled and tripled down on the fact that he killed those

[00:20:52] JAMES: I mean, there was a small part of me that was like, are they gonna, are they gonna do it where he doesn't kill the, these young Padawans

[00:20:58] and

[00:20:58] JOSH: too. Me too.

[00:20:59] JAMES: takes them to be like future Sith Lords? And I'm like, no, no, they, they went for it. they

[00:21:03] he, he killed

[00:21:04] JOSH: they

[00:21:05] JAMES: those children.

[00:21:06] JOSH: he killed those kids. Yes, he did.

[00:21:08] CHRIS: I'm I'm glad they did that though. And the, the planning you're talking about is Malacor 5 I think.

[00:21:13] JOSH: Oh five.

[00:21:13] JAMES: Okay. Five.

[00:21:14] CHRIS: Um, but yeah, I'm, I'm glad they didn't pull the punches there. I'm glad he there's, there's a certain satisfaction for me anyway, that came with him, with him taking responsibility for the actions, because he also, the way he says it, part of the reason it's creepy, right.

[00:21:29] Is because he's taking pride in it. Um, but it's it's yeah, there's, there's a lot of affirmation there. Both for VA. As you know, this wasn't an accident. I made a choice, which I mean, you know, it, it had to have felt like he was being strung along by the Jedi. And later on, we find out he's being strung along by pein.

[00:21:48] So for him to have the agency to kill Ankin on his own kind of thing, that, that, that has to be, excuse me, affirming for him. And then it's affirming for Obi-Wan. Not that it makes things better, but it wasn't, it wasn't his fault. He's not the one who did it, even though he knows that he, he contributed. But, um, but yeah, I mean, I, I agree with the things you're just saying, especially what you said about it being episode 3.5, um, you know, as much as I, I, and I do, I absolutely love, love, love Rogue One.

[00:22:16] Um, but we don't need rogue one for this story, for the story of the three trilogies. We don't need rogue one, just like we don't need a lot of the other materials. I think, to really tell this story. We actually, like, I didn't think we needed rebels, but I did think that we needed. Um, Clone Wars after watching it, I think we need Obi-Wan Kenobi to tell this story.

[00:22:39] JAMES: I would, I would Obi-Wan Kenobi really, like I said, it fills in a lot of the gaps that we didn't realize we needed to see until we saw them. And it, it makes the, you know, it sort of, it, it, it sort of, um, I guess unifies the Vader timeline a little bit in terms of all the different actors and people who have played him.

[00:23:00] And it really like gives Obi-Wan his, you know, place into how he gets from the end of episode three to episode four. And is, is the Jedi master that we originally fell in love with. I mean, that's, that's the Jedi, that's how he becomes the epitome of being a Jedi that we see in episode four is, is through this, this journey that we got to see in his series.

[00:23:21] JOSH: Just one really quick thing that just occurred to me, that scene that I was talking about, that, you were just, referring to as well, Chris, where, where Anakin is finally is taking responsibility for what he did, that is arguably one of the weaknesses of, I think Revenge of the Sith. Is that it's never really clear why he's doing it.

[00:23:42] Like,

[00:23:42] CHRIS: Oh, absolutely.

[00:23:43] JOSH: like, like, was he hoodwinked like, is he lying to himself? Like, it just feels like he made some bad decisions without thinking and.

[00:23:51] CHRIS: And that happens really fast too. We don't see as much development as we need to, to go, oh man, like it's, it's not, cause it's not a fall, right. To see the fall. We really need to see, at least, at least some of the buildup we need to see, you know, it needs to be Macbeth here. At least we need to see some of the build to the fall.

[00:24:08] So there's a height from which to fall, but, but we never really get that with akin. We, we never really get the, the climb for the.

[00:24:14] JOSH: Right, exactly. Which we've talked about at, length, I think on, the Darth Vader redemption episode. But, um, so yeah, so I love that moment for the reason you state, for the reason that it's, it's creepy as, fuck it's so unnerving, like, when he says that, like you can see the glimmer, the, the of a smile on his face, like he's, he's really He's a different person. he's evil. And what I've realized just now is that the whole reason for that scene for that line, is to correct the continuity error, because in A New Hope, before even George Lucas knew that Darth Vader was actually Anakin Skywalker once upon a time, , when Obi-Wan confronts him, he calls him Darth. So, so, so that scene the reason that the idea for that scene even exists is to really get Obi-Wan, to have a reason not to call him Anakin in the next movie, but, but it's, it says so much about how well they did it, that, that, hardly crosses your mind that that's why it's actually there.

[00:25:11] CHRIS: Right.

[00:25:12] JAMES: right? Yeah,

[00:25:13] CHRIS: You know, I thought, I thought this series in, in a lot of ways was, was about a lot of light touches. You know, um, some of it was maybe a little more, a little more heavy handed, but like, but you know, for example, Lay's insight into, into other people and their motivations. Uh that's that's her tapping into the force.

[00:25:32] And so I thought, you know, a lot of the moments they had, the strongest moments they had were, were light touches. The two of, you know, Leia and Obi-Wan bonding and, and holding hands.

[00:25:42] JOSH: I loved all that.

[00:25:43] CHRIS: It's that. was great.

[00:25:45] JOSH: Even having said what I just said about that Anakin, uh, mask moment, some of the most affecting stuff was the stuff between Leia and Obi-Wan like the, the moment where he tells her, about her parents and what he got from

[00:26:01] CHRIS: was so

[00:26:02] JOSH: and what he

[00:26:02] JAMES: Yeah.

[00:26:03] JOSH: her father, and just that warm relationship. And I loved, the end when Obi-Wan returns to the Lars Homestead and, he, and Owen sort of, you know, not fully reconciled, W's like, you know what you're right.

[00:26:16] Like, like we have to just let him, be a kid and all he needs, like, You're all he needs. And then when Owen, he kind of takes a beat and he is like, you want to meet him?

[00:26:25] Like that, that just broke my heart. That was so beautiful. I was just like, oh my God. Like, like, like I love, I love Owen and Barus so much from this show.

[00:26:37] Like, I love them so

[00:26:38] JAMES: Yeah.

[00:26:38] CHRIS: I really appreciated what they did there and also it, it, and maybe this is just me, but it very much read to me as, because again, I, I can't. When I was younger, I think I could watch a lot of this out of context, uh, without, without placing it in any sort of context. And, and now as I'm older, I can't help, but place it in context.

[00:26:56] And they had that. They had a couple of a couple of content warnings because of course the, the shooting at Aldi had just happened. And, uh, and they didn't know that when they were filming this. And so they wanted to put it out there, but, but these things don't happen in a vacuum. And when we pretend that they do, um, you know, I think that's doing a, we're doing the art, a disservice and B we're doing the, the consumers a disservice.

[00:27:16] So I, I very, what I very much got out of this, and what I really appreciated was this notion of you have a, a father who wants. Who wants to spend all of his time with his son and, and not with the daughter. This is not the girl. This is not the child he wanted was the girl. And he ends up with a daughter and he, he learns how to love that daughter.

[00:27:37] And he learns enough about it that he's able to let go of the kid he thinks he should have. And then because he loosens his grip, he's able to meet this child. Like I'm definitely reading more into it than a lot of other people. I think there's, there's definitely some projection there because, you know, it's, it's, it's awful to see kids not be wanted.

[00:27:57] Um, and so for me, part of it was this notion of like, you know, learning how to not just stay in your lane. Um, I don't know, this is, this is a little bit all over the place, a little, little scattered, but, but for me personally, um, his reluctance to go out and, and do something about Leia, uh, translated into the real world problems of, of.

[00:28:21] Parents who, who favor certain children, especially when it comes to the gender of the child. Um, and, and yeah, that was just, I don't, I don't, again, I don't know if that was intended or anything, but, but that was something that I got out of. This was, was a relationship with the child that you didn't necessarily want, but that you got, I, I, you know, it also, for me, it also had strains of, um, as many issues as I have with Orson Scott card.

[00:28:46] And, and, um, ever since I, I learned about his, his

[00:28:49] JOSH: a, he's a raging

[00:28:50] homophobe?

[00:28:51] CHRIS: A raging home flow to the point where he wants to legalize discrimination in enshrine, uh, discrimination against, uh, gay people in our laws, which makes him just forgive the language, makes him a piece of shit, human. Um, but in, in, uh, Ender's shadow, which is, you know, runs concurrently with Ender's game.

[00:29:09] Um, you know, being at some point says to graph, you know, that you, you didn't want me, uh, and graph says I was wrong. I, he, you know, says I was the child you didn't want, but got stuck with and graph said, yeah, I got stuck with you, but I was wrong. And I got like, I got strains of that in, in this as well.

[00:29:28] JOSH: That's interesting.

[00:29:29] JAMES: Also, I feel like this is like a, maybe a separate thing that I'm reading into it. His reluctance to go after Lea was also, I think, just to really point out the level of brokenness he's at, at that point, like. He can't can't leave his cave. Like he, or his little, his little life he's set up for himself.

[00:29:46] Cuz he's so broken that aside from maybe he, Luke is the more important one in his mind or he feels that way at the time. He's also maybe doesn't have the confidence to feel like he can leave and leave Taline and do anything like

[00:29:57] it's uh, his depression goes so deep. That's like sort of just like I'm IM locked in and that that's all I can do.

[00:30:02] I, I barely have the energy. If someone attacked Luke, maybe I can do something, but I

[00:30:06] JOSH: He doesn't even know.

[00:30:06] JAMES: the world.

[00:30:07] JOSH: he doesn't even know if he can use the force anymore.

[00:30:09] JAMES: Right, right.

[00:30:11] JOSH: like how, how far gone. It's really like, I don't know. One of the things that I really appreciated about, , the show was the depiction of the low point that Obi-Wan is at and the journey that, he goes on.

[00:30:27] there's something that I just really connected with, personally, for whatever reason really resonated with me that. You know, the guilt of, thinking you, could do something or that you could take on the responsibility and when you failed, blaming yourself and holding onto the, guilt of that. having it eat away at you and become, become a part of you. that for whatever reason, really resonates with me and, not to get all, woo woo. But there's, um, there's a meditation mantra that I heard once. Um, I often think of, you know, meditation when I think of the Jedi, uh, because I think that, certainly like the language is, very similar in terms of, how to set your mental state and like how to approach the world with certain intentions. but anyway, but there was a, a, a meditation mantra that I heard once that I think is very powerful and it's forgive yourself for what you didn't understand.

[00:31:29] CHRIS: Hmm.

[00:31:30] JAMES: Mm.

[00:31:31] JOSH: And that's a hard thing to do because you know, with hindsight, you made the wrong call, but in truth, you didn't know. so forgive yourself for what you didn't understand. You didn't understand what this young child was going to turn into. You didn't understand that despite all of your, best efforts, situations would play out the way that he did and he would make the choices he did and that everything would unfold like this.

[00:31:58] Forgive yourself for what you didn't understand. And I think that, that Obi-Wan, , through this show by the end has forgiven himself. I actually think that ironically, when Ankin says I am not your failure, Obi-Wan, I killed Anakin. I actually think in a weird way. That's when Obi-Wan realizes that this wasn't his fault.

[00:32:21] I think that Anakin, he's, Vader's the one who absolves him of his pain of his guilt. And I don't think that's his intention.

[00:32:29] CHRIS: I'm I'm actually gonna take it a step further. um, I am going to say that that's actually the moment that, that Anakin while not forgiving Obi-Wan, let's go of Obi-Wan.

[00:32:44] JOSH: Oh,

[00:32:44] CHRIS: Because up until that point, like it, remember they're on, they're on the star destroyer. Um, and I don't remember if it's Vader, star destroyer Devastator but I think it is. And the grand inquisitor says we can't break off. We can kill the Rebel Alliance. We can't do it for one man. And Vader says break off and that's exactly what they do because he cannot help. But hunt Obi-Wan and the emperor calls him on it too. Right. And he says something along the lines of, perhaps you're not clear on our priorities.

[00:33:10] And he says, I am clear. And I think this is the moment when he doesn't forgive Obi-Wan, but he lets go of him.

[00:33:18] JAMES: Well, this is sort of a, this is sort of the Vader that has the grander perspective of the universe. Like the Vader who we see in A New Hope. And that becomes the relentless gonna just stop the rebels in Empire is that's, that's the creation of that Vader until, until it realizes Luke is alive and everything falls apart

[00:33:35] CHRIS: And the kind right. And the kind of Vader who can have cold anger and not just hot anger.

[00:33:40] JOSH: Yes. Yes. There's a big difference.

[00:33:43] CHRIS: Yeah. He, he behaves a lot, like, Kylo Ren in that he's always angry. He's you can tell when he is angry, whereas, you know, by the time we get to A New Hope, don't get me wrong. There's still anger in the very beginning, tear the ship apart. I want those plants, you know, found.

[00:33:57] Um, but there's also the, the, I find your lack of faith disturbing. Right. And he's clearly angry, but it's a cold anger. It's it makes him more dangerous. Uh, we see it in empire. Um, it's I, I, so I think this is the beginning of when he's, like you say, uh, James, when he's able to be the kind of Vader with a broader perspective, he's not just out for revenge.

[00:34:22] Right? He's, he's now sort of moving beyond that. Um, and I, and, and I'm good with getting back to that, but, but one other thing, Josh, that you said that really triggered a thought from me and, and you too, James, when you both were talking about how broken Obi-Wan is, and you know, you didn't, you didn't know what you forgive yourself for, what you didn't know.

[00:34:38] I also think it's one of the things that I really enjoyed is the fact that, um, in general, I like Tala's character. I like Tala's character a lot, but I liked that it, every pass Tala meets Obi-Wan with empathy and that's what he needs.

[00:34:53] JOSH: Mmm.

[00:34:54] CHRIS: She meets him with empathy at every single pass. And, um, and it's just, it's just one of those things where it's.

[00:35:02] I th you know, I think we can all agree that we need more empathy in the world. And so when that's what he's met with by her and by and by bail too, Bail Orana also meets his seeming indifference with empathy. Um, I, I, it was something that I really, really appreciated.

[00:35:21] JOSH: Oh,

[00:35:21] that's interesting. I don't know that I saw that, that, that was so much empathy coming from, uh, from Mr. Organa. I thought I was detecting a little of like snap out of it, old buddy, like, look like I need you.

[00:35:34] CHRIS: but that's also, but that's, but some of that is empathy, right? Because he doesn't

[00:35:38] do it.

[00:35:39] He doesn't do it in an abrasive way. And sometimes, and I think we've all been there. Sometimes we need a shoulder and sometimes we need a kick in the ass. Right. So one of my favorite stories that I, that I relate, um, and it still, it still sort of makes me laugh.

[00:35:53] But, um, I was, I was, uh, in a, I was working on a sh on a play in college and I was working with, uh, somebody that I'd come to trust as my mentor and my director. And, um, and she'd sort of become like an adoptive my, like my Jewish mother kind of thing. And, uh, and it was funny. I was working on this show and I was supposed to, as this character, I was supposed to like, sort of dance on stage and, and be like kind of slimy and scuzzy.

[00:36:18] And I, I don't dance or I didn't dance in my life. I, I didn't like doing it. I didn't feel comfortable. I thought I would look stupid. Which of course the it's funny because I'm supposed to look stupid. So who cares? I'm playing character, but I go up to my director, uh, who had always been like, who'd been very supportive and very kind to me.

[00:36:34] And I, I said to her, you know, I was wondering if you could help me with this, you know, and this is at the end of rehearsal, she's sort of looking through her papers and isn't quite looking at me, as I say, I was wondering if you could help me with this part. And she, and she does not say it in a mean way.

[00:36:47] She doesn't like shut me down or anything. She just very matter of factly while she's collecting stuff says out of, out of while, looking at me at the out of the corner of rice says to me, sure, what are you doing besides nothing? And I was. Oh, my God. You're you're right. Like, I, it like that one moment, like I'm not giving her anything as a director.

[00:37:07] I'm not giving her anything to work with. She can't make it up herself. She's not the one on stage I am. So like, yeah, it sounds really, it sounds really cold in that moment, but it wasn't an indictment of my acting ability. It was my indictment or her indictment of, of me not showing up and, and even putting in the effort, not doing the work.

[00:37:25] So, um, you know, she understood where I was coming from. She understood, I didn't want to be embarrassed. Um, so she still met me with empathy, but it was also a firm kicking the ass and like, come on, get out there and do something.

[00:37:37] JOSH: No, that's a very good point. That's a very good point. And I, I think that is actually what was going on there, I stand corrected.

[00:37:43] JAMES: Well, I, and also wanna just kinda revisit this idea about where we meet Obi-Wan, because I I've, you know, I've had conversations with a few other people and, you know, I even thought this myself as the fact that like, When we meet Obi-Wan has been this great hero for all this time. Um, and especially if you follow through the Clone Wars and stuff and how, you know, and it sort of goes the issue we had, you know, you know, Chris and, and many other Batman people like when dark night rises like Batman taking time off, you know, he was so defeated that he stopped being Batman and we beat Obi-Wan and he so defeated that he stopped being Obi-Wan to that point.

[00:38:18] And you know, a lot of the back and forth is like, well, if you're, if you're a hero on that kind of level, like wouldn't, wouldn't the drive to like, do something, overwhelm your depression or get you out of it. And I think part of, you know, and I was kind of in that too, cuz I was, I'd be like, if it in the Batman situation, like that's not the Batman character.

[00:38:35] And if you see Obi-Wan through clone wars and through what we saw in episodes, one, two and three you'd think like Obi-Wan be sad and broken, but he wouldn't be that broken. But I also like, like to point out that from what we saw, at least for O Obi-Wan. This is like real failure for him, which is a, is a point to discuss, like, if you've never encountered true failure in your life and you encounter it later in life, it's a big shock, like is a shock to the point.

[00:39:00] Like you, you may not have coping mechanisms to really like deal with it mentally and emotionally to get yourself out of the hole until something really pulls you out of it. And so that's kind of how I'm looking like Obi-Wan's had a lot of victories in his, in his life and, and, and Anique arguably in the destruction of the new re of the old Republic is, is a huge, I wouldn't say failure, but it's a huge loss to him that he's never seen.

[00:39:24] You know, he's lost a few battles and he is lost a few friends, but if you've never had like fail, like a lot of people, we, we struggle with things. We fail on a normal life, but we're talking about Obi-Wan, who's on this, you know, I wanna say S heroic level, but he's a hero of the old Republic. And, uh, this is his first real loss.

[00:39:39] And that can be really devastating. You know, if you've not really lost that many times in your life.

[00:39:44] JOSH: oh my God. I have so many thoughts about this.

[00:39:46] Uh

[00:39:48] CHRIS: That's good James get, yeah. What do you got Josh?

[00:39:51] JOSH: First of all the, um, you are certainly right. Like, like I think it is true that, um, this is, and again, I haven't seen, Clone Wars, so, so maybe a lot of, listeners are going to discount everything I say out of hand from here on out. But, but, um, um, uh, uh, he does, lose Satine, correct?

[00:40:10] JAMES: I mean, Chris, you, you know, the series a little bit better than me, but he kind, he does have feelings for Satine, but it wasn't like overtly shown in the series unless I'm wrong.

[00:40:18] CHRIS: Uh, no, I mean, it, it was, it was overtly shown in the series. Um, so it's, it it's a loss, but it, it it's, but it's on, it's on par. I would argue it's on par with, um, losing. Okay. So this is, this is the parallel I'm gonna draw and anybody can feel free to disagree. And if so, let us know in the comments. Um, but I think that just like losing Qui-Gon is like losing a parent.

[00:40:42] Losing is like losing a spouse. And the one that breaks him is the loss of his child. Anakin well, child slash brother Ankin.

[00:40:50] JOSH: Oh, well, that's interesting. I think that's a very interesting point. That's a very, that's a very interesting, distinction.

[00:40:56] CHRIS: Well, cause it's one of the things that comes up in, in The West Wing. So I was when I was watching the and spoilers for The West Wing, which I, you didn't expect to find here, surprise everybody. Um, but you know, uh, I was when I was watching the, the west wing and, um, somebody that, that was staying with me at the time had gotten ahead of me.

[00:41:14] And so it was at that point where, uh, in, in, I think it was season four when, um, when, um, oh gosh, uh, Zoe Bartlett is kidnapped and there's a, there's a, uh, gosh, now I'm gonna forget what's what's it called when people to get together and, and pray, there's a, a, something a gathering a.

[00:41:34] JOSH: A vigil?

[00:41:35] CHRIS: Vigil. Thank you. It just wasn't coming up with the word.

[00:41:37] There was a vigil outside and I did not know she had been kidnapped because I hadn't seen that far ahead yet. And so I was talking to my buddy, Roger, who, who was a West Wing fan. And he goes, I was like, oh, I thought they had killed her. And he is like, no, they couldn't do that because how do you, how does a man like that possibly continue being president?

[00:41:54] How do you, how do you have a show after a man loses his daughter like that? And I was like, all right, that's a really good point. And I think that's sort of the element that happens with Anakin is brother slash child, because that's the one that breaks him. Like a child can get along without their parent when they're, when, when they're old enough.

[00:42:12] But a parent never really recovers from the loss of a child.

[00:42:15] JAMES: And, and arguably like, you know, to, to the point of like Josh, you're making of him losing Satine, and then we could also say him losing Qui-Gon he doesn't mourn that we see on screen or any written thing. He just like, all right, I'm a Jedi, I gotta deal with this. So I lost Satine.

[00:42:29] CHRIS: Yeah. Stiff, upper.

[00:42:30] JAMES: Jedi.

[00:42:30] You know, I, I lost Qui-Gon I gotta train this boy. Qui-Gon wants me to train this boy. So like losing Ankin could unleash all the morning that he never did for those relationships in his life, too.

[00:42:40] JOSH: So, and not only that. So, so, I mean, so I mean, first of all, these are all very excellent, um, thoughts and, uh, Chris at some point, let's do a West Wing episode. I, if

[00:42:50] CHRIS: Yes. I, I would be all over that.

[00:42:52] JOSH: okay. Um, but so not only did he lose his, his son, , brother, however you wanna look at it. but that failure was so catastrophic.

[00:43:02] It literally destroyed the entire world. The Republic has collapsed, Every planet in the galaxy is now under the thumb of a fascist dictatorship, the Jedi, his entire belief system, his entire, professional and, , personal network has been, wiped out that has existed for a thousand generations.

[00:43:21] Like, his world is gone, and I think that if you are not used to dealing with failure or loss, something that's several orders of magnitude, greater than, the loss of a loved one. And in terms of scale and ramifications, like, wherever he looks, wherever he goes, everything he sees is just a reminder of how colossal his failure was.

[00:43:47] How, how, how, devastating for literally trillions of people. This is something that I think, , you know, for me, I really understand, how that could, knock him off his feet and not for nothing like, you know, in the grand scheme, he's out of it for like, you know, nine years and he pretty quickly gets, his, mojo again, like, once he's given the opportunity.

[00:44:08] So, so I think, so I think in the grand scheme he gets back on the horse pretty quick.

[00:44:14] CHRIS: right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's only so much horror a person can take, I suppose. Right.

[00:44:19] JOSH: Yeah. The other thing, , though that I want to respond to what you said, James, about, you know, the nature of heroes and, this is something really fundamental that I think really depends on your perspective. I think, both you and Joe have very strong ideas about what it means to be a hero or a superhero and like what reason for existing is to, be looked up to as examples and as inspirations and as, you know, role models, like they always are able to persevere.

[00:44:52] Like if they have a failure, it's like, they, they may take a moment, , but then they get back up. And I think this idea of what a hero was meant to be, I think was really laid bare, , during all, the discourse around the Last Jedi and the depiction of Luke Skywalker in that, in that movie.

[00:45:11] And I've really been grappling, with this whole idea since, because for me, and again, like, just in full candor, I'm not really one for superheroes. Like they're not generally speaking characters that I'm attracted to. So, so maybe that that's, the reason why I feel this way, but, for my money, I really appreciate seeing that a hero like an Obi-Wan Kenobi, like a Luke Skywalker, can not only fail, but lose their way, be thrown into a real depression that really turns them into a shell of themselves, makes them into another, another person.

[00:45:47] And in all of these examples, we do see them eventually come out of it at the end of the day. But the fact that what that says to me, What I take away from that, that I think is so powerful and, and, very important actually for young people to see depicted and understand, is, to be a hero and to do good, to do the right thing.

[00:46:11] You know, it's not something innate, it's not something that just happens. It's a choice that'ss sometimes hard and you have to continue to meet the challenge to make the choice.

[00:46:22] And , sometimes you don't meet it. Sometimes you stumble. And the fact that that can happen to a Luke Skywalker, that, that, that can happen to a Batman or to an Obi-Wan Kenobi. I think says something really important about the nature of goodness and, heroism and what it means to be a hero, especially given the fact that in the end they do come out of it. so I think it would be a different thing if they were broken and they never recovered, but, but the fact that, that we do see them at those low moments, and then we see how they get out of it.

[00:46:57] That, that to me is, very resonant and I think very profound and very important.

[00:47:05] JAMES: Oh, I'm, I'm I'm in agree with you too. I mean, as much as I like the superhero genre, I mean, I, some of my heroes that I love the best are all heroes who are, are broken. People who have to work. I think hard to, you know, I've, I've made, made, mention in other podcasts, like, you know, Daredevil's a hero of mine and he berates himself and has lost.

[00:47:22] And

[00:47:24] CHRIS: that was that's exactly who I was

[00:47:25] JAMES: Dr. Strange is, yeah, he's his whole thing is he has to keep working on himself to be a better person. to, to be the person he is.

[00:47:32] CHRIS: What he, what, especially when he has the thing that matters the most to him and that he thinks makes him extraordinary taken away from.

[00:47:38] JAMES: Right. He has, he has a huge loss and he comes back from it and he spent years becoming Dr. Strange. I mean, he went from being Dr. Strange, brilliant surgeon to Dr. Strange masters in mystic arts. And that was many years of training and being out of the public eye, the, the only, the only thing I was gonna add to it, which I don't disagree with you, Josh is like, um, I do like heroes that are, that have, that can re you know, show that level of humanity that we see on a daily basis.

[00:48:02] And some of us have, are better dealing with it and overcoming it than others. And that's a whole other separate subject, but I will, I will say most at least of the stories that in heroic stories. And I think in real life too, the hero usually overcomes it or comes out of it when they try to, to interact with other people.

[00:48:19] I mean, Obi-Wan came out of it because he chose to help Leia

[00:48:22] CHRIS: That's that's I'm really glad you mentioned that James. Cause that was a hundred percent. Was I? What I was going to say is that he Obi-Wan and Luke, don't just, they don't just bounce back. They don't just come out of it. They have to be guided out of it and they also have to be in a position to let themselves be guided out of it.

[00:48:37] So I'm glad you mention that James.

[00:48:38] JAMES: And I would also say just in general, like in real life, at least my personal experience is like when we have a bad time, for whatever reason the inclination is to pull away is, is when we should be reaching out. And , I mean, I think, I think that's like how any person let alone a hero overcomes adversity and tragedy and, and loss and suffering is to try to find other people, uh, is, is how you get out of it.

[00:49:01] CHRIS: Yeah.

[00:49:01] JOSH: Yes, but that's also one of the insidious things about, , depression is that, all of the things that it makes you want to do are the exact opposite things that you should do to get out of it.

[00:49:12] CHRIS: No, you're

[00:49:12] absolutely

[00:49:13] JAMES: well, yeah, yeah,

[00:49:14] CHRIS: You're absolutely right about that. Josh. I ran into that with, um, I think I mentioned this on the show before, but, but, uh, at the height of COVID I struggled for the first time in my life with depression with, and it was situational depression. It was, it was very much.

[00:49:25] Based in, it was real depression, but it was based in a situation. Um, and I had never really struggled with it before. So, so, so intellectually I knew what I should be doing. And there were times when all I wanted to do was be around other people, but of course, because of the height of COVID, I couldn't be around, uh, people beyond those in my immediate family.

[00:49:44] Um, you know, I, I found myself, uh, very feeling, very detached, very disconnected, and then I wanted to be with people, but then it started this weird thing started happening where like I would say, yeah, let's, let's hop on a, on a phone and we'll chat or let's get on a zoom caller. Let's play a game online.

[00:50:01] And as I approached those moments of spending time with other people, I'd suddenly start to feel this dread. Like I didn't wanna do it anymore, even though I knew it would be good for me. And, um, and I'd say probably seven and a half out of 10 times, I bailed. so you're absolutely right, Josh. It does this, it does this insidious thing, which I, which I hadn't really experienced before.

[00:50:23] Um, and thankfully with the, with the help of my family and with the help of therapy, like I'm, you know, there's still fallout to deal with, but like I'm, I'm past that situational depression, but having never experienced it before, even the, even the intellectual knowledge of, I know why I'm feeling this dread.

[00:50:38] And I know I will feel better if I reach out to people. I still canceled because that was what my, what the depression was telling me to do.

[00:50:45] JOSH: Exactly. Yeah. And, and I mean, this is topic that, we can talk to as naseum and, shameless plug. we are planning to, record an episode of Trash Compactor are all about, mental illness in star Wars. So I will save, some of my thoughts for that, because I

[00:51:01] CHRIS: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:51:03] JOSH: I would like to stay on, topic here, but, um,

[00:51:05] JAMES: mean we're on a podcast because I wanted to stay in touch with people during all the stuff that was going with COVID and in my personal situation to help me stay connected. So

[00:51:14] JOSH: yeah, it's interesting. It's like, you. Leia kind of saves Obi-Wan even though Obi-Wan is ostensibly saving Leia

[00:51:20] and Rey, Rey saves Luke, even though, Luke is ostensibly saving the, the Resistance.

[00:51:29] CHRIS: Right. And he's safe where he is. Nobody's gonna find him there, but you're absolutely right. Rey ends up Rey Rey landing on his planet is what's end. What ends up saving him that and Yoda.

[00:51:41] JOSH: Chris, you were talking about I don't know if you used the word appreciated, but, you noted about how the show was really, not shying away from dealing with trauma and childhood trauma and, you know, violence against children, you know, uh, the timing of the Uvalde shooting and the premiere of that first episode of Obi-Wan that opens up with the slaughter of the children at the Jedi temple, like, like was obviously a very, unfortunate, synchronicity.

[00:52:11] But in retrospect, I understand why they couldn't just cut the scene. Um, because that story thread, the fact. That origin story, that motivation for the creation of what Reva became as a, as a character, as someone who's devoted her life to, revenge and will go through whatever ruthless means she needs, to get it.

[00:52:37] She's devoted her entire life to getting revenge and she just hates. The point that I'm trying to make is that, I appreciated and then came to understand why, that scene was so integral , to understanding the story of the show, really, because, Reva's really, an extreme example and arguably Anakin, though not, depicted as, succinctly, but, you know, Reva's really an example of what trauma can do to children and how it affects them, the rest of their lives.

[00:53:10] And what I really appreciated was at the very end, she makes a choice not to kill Luke. She makes a choice. She, and I forget the exact wording of the scene, but I think that Obi-Wan sort of explains to her, the idea that, you know, you don't have to be a monster. You have these horrors inside you, but that's from trauma.

[00:53:34] That's not your fault. And it, it, it doesn't mean you have to be a murderer.

[00:53:41] You she, you have agency, you and the fact that she, when she has the opportunity to do it, she's gotten there. She can do it.

[00:53:50] CHRIS: Right.

[00:53:50] JOSH: And she makes the choice. Not to be evil. That whole storyline, that whole idea of how she was formed, by her childhood trauma and that it, which, you know, given what the trauma was, sadly has a lot of resonance in, the world right now.

[00:54:08] But, so not only that fact, but also the fact that she ultimately realized that she could choose to be something else that she didn't have to be a product of her, her past, her trauma. She had, she had a choice and she made it. And that, that was such a highlight of the show for me. Like, I think that's a, a fantastic arc that that was just very, well handled and very well acted and just,

[00:54:36] CHRIS: Oh,

[00:54:37] JOSH: makes me even more angry that, Moses Ingram had to deal with all the fucking garbage that she had to deal with online from, from racist and

[00:54:45] CHRIS: From Gar yeah. From garbage racists. Well, and it was, it was also tough. I, I really, I also, I appreciated that. It was, I found that that end, I found it so, so difficult to watch that scene between her and Obi-Wan because, it's, you know, we've seen, unfortunately we've seen in, in media and stories, um, the exploitation of black women's pain

[00:55:12] right. And exploitation of black female trauma, um, black trauma in general, but especially black female trauma. Right. And so, you know, we get it's so well done, but we do get more of it in this story. . And so I just, I found it very difficult and very wrenching to watch. And she just, she does such, such a beautiful job with it that, um, that I was religious.

[00:55:36] I was blown away by, you know, all these people who were, and of course, you know, some of it, some of it, one could argue was like, no, objectively. They feel like the car, the actor didn't have enough to work with blah, blah. And then some of it really was absolutely racist, garbage, but you know, by the time we get to the end here, I think she is a three dimensional character.

[00:55:55] I think we get a lot from her and I, I really appreciated and enjoyed her performance as, as wrenching as it was.

[00:56:02] JAMES: And I would, you know, and I think like, just to go to the points we've been talking about already, like the fact that she allows herself a moment to talk to Obi-Wan in the cave area. Kind of probably opens her mind up to the ability of making a choice that she makes in that other, in the final episode,

[00:56:17] JOSH: That's true.

[00:56:18] JAMES: she finally gets to speak to the man who she, in her mind blames for what everything gonna happened, you

[00:56:24] know,

[00:56:24] CHRIS: Yeah, you were supposed to protect us. Where were you?

[00:56:27] JAMES: and and he's not, you know, he's, he made it, he's made, I, you know, it's hard to say exactly the emotions they're trying to convey there, but I think that's the opening to give her the decision not to kill Luke in the, in the final episode.

[00:56:39] JOSH: Yeah. Well, that's very true. And actually you're making me realize like, that's probably the first time she has, ever had the opportunity to, to express that trauma to anyone.

[00:56:54] JAMES: Yeah.

[00:56:55] JOSH: so you're right. Actually like that, that, that moment Where were you, you were supposed to protect us.

[00:57:00] Where were you Well, I was riding a really cool lizard and I was, chasing a robot cyborg with a zillion lightsabers, but, um, but, um,

[00:57:07] CHRIS: These are the things you do when you're an adult.

[00:57:10] JOSH: Yeah.

[00:57:11] but, what you just made me realize is that she had never, probably had the chance to get that out. And that may , have been sort of the, uh, the crack in the door so to speak, to lead her, to do what she decides to do later, I think you're right on the money with that actually, that's

[00:57:28] JAMES: I mean, just, I mean, it's the first time we see her break her Sith Lord veneer. To like, say, where were you

[00:57:34] JOSH: Uh,

[00:57:34] JAMES: that? Like through the whole time

[00:57:36] CHRIS: She risks. She risks this thing she's been working at for her entire, in her entire life at this point. Right. She risks it to have this conversation out loud.

[00:57:46] JOSH: there's one interesting thing that you said Chris, uh, that I wanna, dial in on a little bit, , because it's something that I think about a lot as well. this idea that, black women's trauma is very often depicted and cheaply exploited as entertainment.

[00:58:00] Um, and I totally hear, why you would react that way and, you know, full disclosure, I'm a white guy. Uh,

[00:58:08] you're a white guy. Yeah. That they,

[00:58:10] CHRIS: Worth noting.

[00:58:11] JOSH: So take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt, but, I think that I very often try to overcompensate for what I know my blind spots are.

[00:58:21] Same as I know you do, like you try to be, extra conscientious and extra aware and extra sensitive to certain things. I would be surprised if, there are black women who would see this as an example of exploiting black female trauma, because I think , the fact that the character is, really broadly more of a really kick ass, you know, villain that's in a role where you would normally never see a black woman and the fact that she gets to, to get into Darth Vader's face.

[00:58:55] She gets to get into, to Obi-Wan Kenobi's face. She gets to sort of, you know, be calling, the shots and, do all this very, traditionally, you know, straight white male kind of stuff. And the fact that she is three dimensional because of the backstory, because of the motivation and that, that, you know, moment of trauma, that, you know, moment of her pain is, you know, really confined to sort of that moment of.

[00:59:21] catharsis that, that all good characters should have. I would be surprised if a black woman would use this as an example of that sort of, phenomenon that you're talking about. I could be entirely wrong about that, but,

[00:59:36] CHRIS: no, I mean, I, I, I didn't, if, if I didn't mean to give the impression that I thought this, this necessarily was exploitative, um, because I don't, I don't think it is I, but I do think there are elements of the story that, you know, so one of the things that I think in general, we're, we're really bad at writing are alien. because so frequently our aliens, uh, have human, very human motivations because that's, that's what we know. Right. It's why we anthropomorphize things and animals and stuff. And, and one of the reasons I love the expanse quick little plug for the expanse is that it, you know, what the proto molecule is doing is so, so alien that we trying to can't wrap our brains around it.

[01:00:16] And I think that's well done. Um, but you know, that's one of the things that we have to do is even when we're writing about space wizards out in other galaxies, um, ultimately we come back to writing about things that we know so that these characters are relatable to us. And so I, while I don't think this is a situation in which the pain.

[01:00:38] The pain and the trauma of black women specifically is necessarily exploited for the sake of the story. Because as you say, she's also playing a character, she doesn't normally get to play, which I sort of wanna return to for in a moment. Um, there's still an element of when you look at she, she is played by the inquisitor who is painted as very white.

[01:01:02] She is played by Vader who is also white. She ends up being a pawn in this whole game. And I think that while this was not written about race, I don't think it was. I do think it's striking that once again, you have this, this young black girl who grows up with all this trauma, carries it into adulthood and she's still getting played by.

[01:01:23] Um, she's still getting played by the people in power. She's still part of this game that they're playing.

[01:01:29] So.

[01:01:29] JOSH: is certainly yes, no, no. That is certainly a very good point. And I do think that the resulting optics of that are a little, um, are a little uncomfortable,

[01:01:38] CHRIS: Yeah. And, and again, I don't, this is not me. I, this is for anybody out there who, who feels though, I maybe calling out Obi-Wan Kenobi, please, please don't mistake it for that. I'm not, I don't, I'm not calling out Obi-Wan Kenobi. It did make me feel uncomfortable, but I thought in a good way that that told the story. Um, and, and as a, a producer of, of nine years for my own theater company, um, There were uncomfortable conversations I had with actors sometimes because I'd be casting a show.

[01:02:05] And, and the, the cornerstone of the theater company I started was about, uh, domestic and sexual violence prevention. And there are a lot of, uh, race based myths that, that were perpetuated by white people as a form of control, um, all wrapped up in the ideas of domestic and sexual violence. Um, you know, such as what, you know, the, the, the dark skinned rapist, who, the stranger, who, who jumps outta the bushes, um, you know, that's, that's not true.

[01:02:33] Uh, so it's, it's things like that, that, that I had to be thoughtful of when casting these roles that said, you know, I also had to kind of conversations with actors because sometimes the main part in a play is the abuse. . And so at that point, you know, am I now, what am I doing if I've cast a white woman in the role of the survivor of the violence, you know, for optics and for the, the sake of statistical relevance and, and, uh, truth, you know, the, the attacker, the abuser should be a white guy that knows her, but now am I discriminating against people of color for these roles, but also what kind of message are we sending?

[01:03:13] So like you can't get it. All right. And, um, and I don't think the intention was to, to profit off of black female trauma. I only bring that up because I know that is extremely common. And I didn't think this was a, an example of that, but it, it did hit like uncomfortable for me personally, it did hit uncomfortably close to the mark of, okay.

[01:03:34] I'm really glad that they fleshed out this character and that she got to make the choices and have the agency that she had. It's not like Obi-Wan. Got to her in time and then talked to her before she killed Luke. And she made the decision, right. She had already made the decision not to kill him.

[01:03:50] JOSH: Right.

[01:03:51] CHRIS: So she has agency that I think in a lot of other stories, uh, as a black woman, she would've been robbed of, even if it's just him showing up in time to stop her and then trying to convince her, instead of stopping her by force, which like, okay, it's still her decision, but it's made it it, but it's, but it's with interference.

[01:04:08] Whereas she came to that conclusion on her own. She has Luke captured at her mercy. She's gonna be able to get away. And she's the one who walks out of the desert, carrying him while he is still alive. OV one doesn't get there in time. And that was something that I really appreciated that towards the end of the series, I felt like this woman, this character was really given the agency to make her own decisions.

[01:04:31] And she had been robbed that basically her entire life first by the Jedi and then by the inquisitor and the fifth. So, um, so I I'm sorry if it came across as me saying that this was exploitative, I don't think it was, I think it was close enough that I felt uncomfortable sitting with it.

[01:04:46] JOSH: No, that's not what I thought, you were saying, I was just saying that for the benefit of any of our, our.

[01:04:52] CHRIS: Sure. For all listeners. Yeah,

[01:04:53] JOSH: yeah, for our listeners who may not sort of understand exactly the ins and outs of, the issues here, but,

[01:04:58] CHRIS: sure, sure.

[01:04:59] JOSH: uh, but you know, it's also interesting, like similarly to avoid that moment of discomfort, should they have cast a non-black actor?

[01:05:09] Right?

[01:05:09] CHRIS: Right.

[01:05:10] JAMES: Yeah.

[01:05:10] CHRIS: Those are the hard, those are the really, really hard decisions.

[01:05:13] JOSH: Yeah, so ultimately the end of the day is no, because like that's such a small part of the character. That's not, what is going on, uh, you know, in that scene, like

[01:05:21] CHRIS: But I, but, but to that end, I also do think they were aware of the optics because there was only one evidently and we, and I don't know for certain, cause I didn't, I didn't look into what ethnicity he is, but there's only one inquisitor who presents as white in their makeup and that's the Grand Inquisitor.

[01:05:38] JOSH: Oh, well,

[01:05:38] that's

[01:05:38] true.

[01:05:39] JAMES: true.

[01:05:39] CHRIS: So they do. So they only have one. What looks like a white guy and he is, you know, he, he is pale just like the other Inquisitor. Um, but one is, one is a woman. One is, is, uh, is an Asian guy and then there's, and then there's Reva and then you've got the grand inquisitor. Right. Um, so I, I do think they were very, very, and, and you can't at this point, Obi-Wan is a white guy.

[01:06:05] Vader is a white guy. We already know this, uh, Leia is a white woman. Um, but I do think they were very deliberate and I I'd be surprised if I was wrong. I think they're very deliberate in who, in the ethnicity of the actors they cast for the, for the various Inquisitors.

[01:06:19] JOSH: I mean, yeah. I would say you're right about that. I. Um, at the risk of going, entirely off the rails here, um, you make me think of something that I struggle with with, new Star Wars, both, , the sequel films and also the Disney plus series that are said in the time of the original trilogy.

[01:06:38] Um, you know, there's a reading of the original trilogy where, the bad guys, the empire, they're all white dudes, they're all white men. Right. And the Rebels by comparison are, more diverse. Um, there are. You know, still mostly white men, but there are, more people of, color.

[01:06:58] And there are more women I'm thinking of Return of the Jedi with, you know, Mon Mothma and with, with, um, some of the, the other pilots and, certainly, more species. There are no, no aliens serving in the empire in the original trilogy.

[01:07:11] CHRIS: Right.

[01:07:12] JOSH: I think that's definitely very intentional.

[01:07:15] I think it's saying something about, the nature of fascism and who traditionally, holds the power and, tries to, turn the world into, a fascist, state in order to maintain that, racial and gender hierarchy, but things get a little muddled once you get to the prequels and the original trilogy era shows where you have Imperial officers and storm troopers who are women and are, are people of color, which, you know, for a couple reasons like, like, I, I totally get why, I mean, you don't want to put out a casting call that says, you know, we're only looking for white guys, because like you're closing opportunities for so many, so many starving actors.

[01:07:56] So I mean, that's just a practical thing. And then, that reading of the original trilogy, which is certainly there, and again, I'm, I'm, fairly certain is, 100% intentional. Um, could you imagine the uproar, especially in certain online spaces, I mean, on certain news networks, quite frankly, if the bad guys in these, in these movies and these shows were nothing but white guys, right.

[01:08:23] Which is another reason why I think they, they avoid it, but, but it's just, it's just something that I have noticed. And having had some brief interactions with some fans both, , women and, people of color and stuff. They, they don't like seeing themselves represented in the empire. So, and I should say.

[01:08:45] Not across the board, but that's something that I've heard you know, several times the idea that, that as a function of this, like, sort of Hollywood, you know, liberal wokeness, like, we have a rainbow cast of characters. See, see, like, We have have women storm troopers and we have, people of, color who are running star destroyers and, blowing up the good guys, like, uh, for some who, who are members of those groups.

[01:09:11] They don't like that. Because one of the reasons that the original trilogy really rings true to them is that, is that that's what the white guys

[01:09:22] CHRIS: yeah, it's the, yeah, the empire is white and male.

[01:09:25] JOSH: Yeah. So, so, so that's just an interesting, wrinkle that I've never had occasion to verbalize. And I don't really think there is a good solve, you know, frankly, just, just, because of the practical matter of, I think, it's more important to get the actors, the opportunities, the paid work, so that, so that they can have careers in this industry.

[01:09:46] CHRIS: Mm-hmm.

[01:09:46] JAMES: Well, I mean, not to speak to anybody, you know, who's feeling that way because it's, it's, you know, it's all valid. I would say, if you look at the original trilogy, though, all the people who are in that boardroom on the Death Star are all, are all white men and anybody else who's not in that boardroom. If they're of a different, you know, nationality, gender, race, um, they didn't make it up that high.

[01:10:09] So, so you can say like, some of that is still in place because the people in power are still the older white guys and anyone else who doesn't fit that mold is still working at the empire. They just didn't make it that high, except for maybe like grand outran. And he wasn't in the original trilogy in terms of canon as of right now.

[01:10:24] So, um, I think that their argument still kind of stands.

[01:10:28] JOSH: You, well, I suppose that's a way to head-canon it, but even if you look at like the people's, you know, standing around in the hallways and on the bridge of, the Executor and the, the, everyone on the Death Star, I defy you to do a freeze frame. I defy youto find one, one person of color or one female presenting face on the screen.

[01:10:47] I, I would bet all the money I have that you would not find a single one.

[01:10:52] JAMES: I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying in terms of canonizing it for people who, you know, choose to see star wars a certain way, that you could still think of it that way. Cuz it's, you

[01:11:02] CHRIS: Sure. No, I mean, what you're saying totally. It's, it's valid, James. It totally, it totally makes sense. And, and I think that, you know, again, differing perspectives come from what Josh was talking about earlier, which is it can be easy to recognize it for, you know, especially, you know, for, for someone like me and, and Josh, I feel like you and I are kind of in the same boat here, uh, in, in recognizing our own privilege to, to voice it.

[01:11:26] So, uh, so vehemently that it's it. Sometimes we can also be waved off a little bit. In terms of, in terms of what we think, but it's, it's tough because you know, Josh, you as a filmmaker and, and myself as a producer and director, um, these are the tough calls that need to be made sometimes that we don't, you know, you can't make in a vacuum that it's not just what sometimes what serves the story.

[01:11:49] Uh, you, we can't think about it in a vacuum. We have to think about what serves the story in, in greater, uh, cultural context.

[01:11:58] JOSH: Absolutely , 100%. uh, yeah. And like you said, like there is no easy answer. There are a lot of factors and like, at the end of the day, like you just have to be as thoughtful as you can. I try to. I try to go to people who are actual, you know, members of the group in question, and just, try to get their 2 cents, if they're willing.

[01:12:15] I know that that's asking them to do extra labor for my own understanding, but I have some friends who, you know, who are always happy to give me their, 2 cents. But, I mean, it's, not easy and it's not supposed to be, but I think you just try to be as thoughtful as you can and, try to make the best, call you can make at the time and acknowledge when you messed up and learn from it.

[01:12:32] JAMES: Yeah, I, I agree. That's a good sentiment. That's a great sentiment.

[01:12:36] CHRIS: yeah. Yeah.

[01:12:36] JOSH: Um, James, you asked me a question. I think the day after the finale aired, , that I haven't satisfactorily answered, , myself. Why didn't Obi-Wan kill Vader?

[01:12:50] JAMES: Oh yeah. Well, we've been wrestling with that. I mean, I, I talked to text message with John about that. I think a messaged with Jack about that. I'm not sure, but yeah. Um, well, I mean, I don't, I mean, actually John and I had a good conversation via text, and I think he brought this up maybe on your podcast to Josh, but I, I can't remember.

[01:13:08] Since again, I've had so many conversations about the show with different people, I assume just lose tracking or it could be Chris and I, but yeah, I was a little confused writing wise. Why he left it? Like just left him like that because, you know, arguably Vader was the most vulnerable and he could have taken the opportunity to take him out then.

[01:13:25] But, um, you know, I'm, I'm sort of now having a month to reflect about it and having conversations with, with all the people I've had conversations with. I, I, I think on just on the board on the message that it wasn't, he didn't wanna, he, he doesn't wanna kill anymore if he doesn't have to. I mean, you could argue that not killing Vader or killing Vader could have saved a lot of Ang angst and trauma that was coming to the universe going forward.

[01:13:48] But you also, I feel like part of it's like when we talked about in the redemption of Vader episode, it's, it's part of it is, uh, maybe just, that's not the will of the force in Obi. One was going with the will of the force and Ankin is the chosen one. And that's very complex and hard to understand. And, and that's why you didn't kill him.

[01:14:04] I don't know if there's a satisfying answer, but I'm still like, that's kind of where my head is at at this point.

[01:14:09] CHRIS: I think I, for me, it was almost, um, it, it wasn't something that like that bothered me and maybe it's because I didn't put too much thought into it, but I think Ben finally. He struggles with, I think what it means to be a Jedi and what the Jedi have done and the choices that they've made that have brought them to this point.

[01:14:31] And I have to wonder if some of his decision is not based in this, this notion that he doesn't want to kill anymore, especially after, um, especially after the conversations that he has had over the course of this series and what he's learned. Um, maybe it's maybe it's will the force for me. And I, I think that's a compelling, that's a compelling argument, James, and that's something that I could I could latch into and, and frankly appropriate for myself.

[01:15:01] Um, for me, I think it

[01:15:02] JAMES: I mean, I'm not

[01:15:03] CHRIS: well, no, I mean, cause it,

[01:15:04] JAMES: I'm not, I don't wanna cop out in saying that. And I'm, I'm

[01:15:07] CHRIS: no, no, I

[01:15:07] JAMES: you off. I'm just, I'm just saying like, you know, we could argue, like, why was Vader allowed to live so long and do all the things? Well, like some of it is like it's I guess the will of the forest and that's bringing balance to the forest, cuz he is the chosen one.

[01:15:19] CHRIS: But I don't think you're copying out. I think that makes sense. And in a, in a strictly Jedi way, it actually, it actually makes sense because it's sort of a frustrating answer of like, why didn't you kill later when you had the chance, because he's the chosen one, that's the will of the force. Well, what are you on about like how many times have we been wrong about this?

[01:15:38] So I actually think that your, your reasoning for it holds a lot more water than mine does. Mine is simply that that war fatigue has set in and he does not want to be responsible for another death. Um, that's I, for me, I think that was when I was watching, that was what I was able to walk away with was the harder thing was to not kill Vader.

[01:16:03] And he decided he didn't want to be a part of that war anymore. But I, I think you're right, James. I think I, I like, I like the way you've laid it.

[01:16:11] JOSH: I actually agree with you, Chris. I, I don't think that's the weaker argument. I think he

[01:16:17] though, I don't necessarily know that I would characterize it as the harder choice, but I do think he just didn't wanna murder somebody. he spent the last decade carrying the guilt, of thinking that he had killed his friend, brothers, son.

[01:16:35] um, and I think it was an emotional, moment that they just had, and I think he just didn't want to kill anymore. And that's something that I, I really understand though, though, I will say the only reason why it just kind of nags at me a little bit is because it, it would have been very easy to contrive a reason why they would be separated all of a sudden, and it was no longer an option to end the fight.

[01:17:07] Right. Like at the end of The Force Awakens when, the planet is falling apart and there's like the chasm opens up between them and they can't fight but the other thing, that I have to admit is that, when watching it the first time never crossed my mind that, that, that was an issue.

[01:17:21] Like, like, it didn't feel weird. Like I was, so I was so caught up in the moment of what was happening. It just felt so right. I was so compelled. And honestly the thought, the question never even entered my mind until James, you asked me the next day and, and I was like, oh, huh. Yeah. And I mean, of course the real answer is because he has to be in the next movie, but,

[01:17:44] JAMES: Right. I mean, the,

[01:17:45] an, the answer is all the toys of the back in the toy box for A New Hope so,

[01:17:49] JOSH: yeah, but that said, but that said, I do think that, there is, something to the idea that, um, you know, there will be no more killing today sort of thing. I mean, Anakin knows he's been beaten.

[01:18:05] JAMES: yeah.

[01:18:05] JOSH: And Obi-Wan he has a mission and there's a plan.

[01:18:09] And if he, all of a sudden took out Vader, what would that do to the state of the universe? And I think he has, , you know, really accepted his role of laying low and biding his time and, leaving this problem to solve for the generation that will come

[01:18:28] JAMES: Yeah. I mean, that's, that's fair. I mean, listen, it's, there's plenty of stories. And I mean, I can't think of specific ones off the top of my head, but like where the, the soldier decides not to kill anymore or lays down as, I mean, one didn't lay down his weapon, but he, you know, as far as we know, after, after the clone wars and after episode three, we don't see him killing anybody else.

[01:18:48] He takes the guy's arm off in the Cantina, but that's, he didn't, you know, the guy, you know, was being disruptive. But aside aside from taking a person's limb, we don't see him kill any storm troopers or kill anybody else after that. So maybe, you know, that's a good way to look at it too. He's he's done with killing, he'll still fight and defend people, but he is not gonna, you know, just out and write murder people anymore.

[01:19:10] JOSH: Which is the Jedi way. A, Jedi's weapon is for, , no,

[01:19:18] JAMES: knowledge and defend

[01:19:19] JOSH: yet.

[01:19:20] JAMES: and defense. Yeah.

[01:19:21] JOSH: Knowledge and defense never for attack though, though. I will that was on my mind when, that awesome moment that everyone is constantly posting all over social media where Obi-Wan is like flinging, rocks at Vader.

[01:19:32] Like that, that actually crossed my mind in that, moment. Like, wait a second. He's going on like major offense here that said, like, that's in the context of a fight that he needs to survive and he needs to win. So, so,

[01:19:44] JAMES: It's also a with a, against an opponent he knows. Can take. I mean, it's not like Vader, like can't like we he's matching force against force. I should say Vader has the same amount of ability and anger and rage. And let me just, just clarify, because I said, you know, he doesn't wanna murder anymore. I'm not suggesting Obi-Wan was ever a murderer.

[01:20:02] I am just saying like,

[01:20:03] he killed a lot

[01:20:04] of, he killed, he killed a lot of people in the Clone Wars. I mean, you know, a lot of people died. The Jedi killed a lot of people in the clone

[01:20:11] CHRIS: Yeah, they

[01:20:12] did.

[01:20:12] JAMES: way, you know, they weren't just, they weren't all droids. They were, there were other sentient beings that the Jedi took out, maybe not directly, but things exploded and things happened.

[01:20:21] But I, you know, just to kind of rec you know, you know, reiterate Obi-Wan's done with killing, not murdering

[01:20:26] CHRIS: no, no, no, no. I mean you're absolutely. And, and, you know, I think that's, cuz that's one of the things I, one of the things I appreciate about the cl appreciate about the clone war series is, is Yoda grappling with the realization that the Jedi are the ones who have screwed this up. Yes. They're manipulated and yes, there's stuff going on outside of their knowledge.

[01:20:45] But, but they, they charge into this war and they do not use the force for knowledge and defense. Right. They absolutely use it to attack. . Um, and, and so the Jedi have come up short and Yoda struggles with, with the choices they made that got them to this point. And, um, and I think we need that. I think it's in the sixth, the fifth or the sixth season of clone wars.

[01:21:07] Um, so the, the Penn ultimate season, um, where he's, where he's personally struggling with this and he, and he starts to, to lose faith in what they've done. And, um, and I, you know, I think that's, that's part of it too, is, is Obi-Wan also having that, that realization of, of, you know, he doesn't, he doesn't want to do that anymore, especially now that he's seen what it's like, he, he really just wanted to be on the planet with Luke.

[01:21:32] Right. And then his world got a little bit bigger when he found out what an extraordinary person Leia is.

[01:21:38] JAMES: No, I, I agree with that, Chris. Yeah. I mean, I think I, I, like I said, I, I feel like I said, I feel like, you know, the, the Jedi, like I agree with everything you said, the Jedi definitely were, were not just defending in the club wars. They were definitely planning, attacks and points of attack to dos use that.

[01:21:53] So, you know, and again, I, I can easily sign on board with what you said and what Josh said about him. Just being. With fighting and with killing and outright killing. I mean, he, he already engaged with it partly in the Obi-Wan, uh, in the series when he was fighting the storm trippers on that base. So I think he just reached a point where he's done, especially when he had the burden of like, knowing, like I didn't do this Dan and did it to himself.

[01:22:15] JOSH: No. And not only that, like, like look at the end of the day, I know he lets him live, because of plot reasons. And, really he, probably should have ended him then, but that said, I will never fault someone for choosing not to kill somebody.

[01:22:29] I just can't.

[01:22:31] JAMES: Yeah. I mean, I, I agree. I mean, it's just, I mean, just to bring him up again, like. You know, Batman should have killed, could have killed the joker many times and he didn't and, uh, you know, and that story keeps going on and on. So it it's, it's something that happens in heroes stories just to go back to the hero myth.

[01:22:46] There are sometimes the villain that outright the hero should kill and they don't. And that is, that is the choice that they make at that time.

[01:22:54] JOSH: Do you guys think there should have been a movie, uh, versus a series?

[01:22:59] JAMES: No, I, I think the, I mean, I like the series too, because I don't know if we would've gotten the stuff with Reva. Like we did that we talked about in the movie. I feel like, unfortunately, just to kind of, not to rehash everything we just talked about, but I think her stuff would've been cut in favor of the Obi-Wan Vader stuff and the Baru and, you know, and the Lars homestead stuff might have, I think a lot of the stuff that we'd like to give greater character development outside the legacy characters would've been cut.

[01:23:22] So I think I like the.

[01:23:24] CHRIS: think it needs to be what it is. I did not like the original, I did not like the original Doune movie, but the mini series, Frank Herbert's Doune that they had on sci-fi I thought was wonderful. Um, if I'm not mistaken, that was in three parts. I think Obi-Wan Kenobi, as much as I think of it as a movie, I think it needs to be a series in order to, uh, there's stuff.

[01:23:44] There was fat that could be trimmed, but I thought it needed to be a series to do what it.

[01:23:49] JAMES: Yeah.

[01:23:50] JOSH: I would agree with that as well, because I think it's so character driven that, the first thing that you lose when you're editing a movie is , you trim the character moments because ultimately the movie has to flow and make logical sense and all fit together. So, so I feel like a lot of those.

[01:24:05] Really lovely moments that are some of my favorite scenes, like, especially a lot of the stuff with Obi-Wan and Leia, I was about to say Han and Leia, um, a lot of the stuff between Obi-Wan and Leia, a lot of those little moments, those like little scenes between Obi-Wan and things like, I think we probably would've lost a lot of that.

[01:24:21] Though I will say that, like, when I think about the show in my mind, I have a hard time kind of, visualizing it in my head. And I think a part of that has to do with, , and I'm not, I'm not gonna get into it because I've said this I've talked about this ad nauseum on, our wrap up of Obi-Wan that we did on my show. So you can go listen to that. Like I think some of that has to do with like the literal kind of muddiness, that's a product of the luminance of the volume stage. but it's also like, I mean, this is a TV series. it's longer. and it's harder to reduce it to a series of iconic images, the same way that you can a film.

[01:24:57] So, so I don't think that that's, necessarily a strike against it. It was just something that I thought was, sort of interesting to realize.

[01:25:04] JAMES: no, definitely, definitely. Um, yeah, I think, I think it works good as a series. Um, And like everything you guys said. I think, I think we've lost some good stuff. If it had been a movie just because of time purposes and this series allows it to breathe. And to your point, Chris, I think I would also, this is probably something I will revisit at some point too, of, of the series that have come out.

[01:25:23] I will probably revisit Obi-Wan at some point.

[01:25:26] CHRIS: Yeah,

[01:25:27] JAMES: um, so I think we covered everything we wanted to cover. I mean, there's probably more we could cover, but I think this is probably a good,

[01:25:34] CHRIS: more, but again, head over to the trash compactor, because again, that, that episode by episode really lets us dig into some of the nitty gritty.

[01:25:41] JAMES: yes. And,

[01:25:42] CHRIS: that I got to be on a couple of those episodes, so yeah. Go check out trash compactor.

[01:25:46] JAMES: yes. Thank you, Chris. I was gonna say, I was gonna say you were, you were, you, uh, were in some of those episodes and, um, yeah, please check out the trash compactor for deeper dive into all this. But, um, as we wrap this up, I want to thank listening audience for being here with us. Thank you for listening to everything we had to say.

[01:26:03] And, uh, if you have thoughts and comment. About what we said, please make them in the Facebook group, or you can always reach us at, uh, secret origins, MC Uh, but as always, I, I couldn't do the show if not for my other host. So thank you, Chris

[01:26:21] CHRIS: my pleasure to be here. Thank you.

[01:26:23] JAMES: And Josh, thank you for coming back.

[01:26:25] JOSH: Goodbye there.

[01:26:28] Sorry.

[01:26:29] CHRIS: Just wait. He he's been waiting to do that for,

[01:26:31] JOSH: No, it, it literally just occurred to me. No, I, I am. I wanna make it clear. It just, it just popped in there.

[01:26:39] what

[01:26:39] what.

[01:26:40] just popped in there? Yeah. Sorry. Sorry.

[01:26:42] CHRIS: I'm I'm

[01:26:42] little, I'm a little upset with, she didn't trust us to finish that for you.

[01:26:50] JOSH: It's not trust. I just, I just get started. I can't help myself.

[01:26:54] JAMES: And, and by the way, audience, we have a great Ghostbusters one and two part thing in case, uh, in case you haven't picked up all the Ghostbuster references in this episode too. So I'd go back and watch, listen to those episodes also might as well promote that. Um,

[01:27:06] JOSH: All the references. What other ones? What other ones did I miss?

[01:27:09] JAMES: aside, aside from our, our star wars references that were in here and, uh, I don't think we had any Star Trek ones in this, in this episode though.

[01:27:15] CHRIS: I mentioned The Expanse y'all can go back to the sci-fi episode

[01:27:18] JAMES: Yeah, that's good. At the end of this episode here, we're just gonna plug everything we've done on this feed so far and, and Josh's

[01:27:23] CHRIS: and look for our upcoming West Wing episode.

[01:27:25] JAMES: Yes.

[01:27:26] JOSH: No, but seriously, we should do that, Chris. We

[01:27:28] CHRIS: I, I agree with you. I, I wasn't, I wasn't being facetious. I'm in

[01:27:34] JAMES: uh, I better start watching The West Wing. Um,

[01:27:37] CHRIS: That's right. It's only eight season.

[01:27:38] JAMES: that's it, I'm still working

[01:27:39] on. the expense, but

[01:27:40] JOSH: no, it's only seven seasons and it's actually only four seasons.

[01:27:44] CHRIS: uh, okay. Well, we're them, them fighting words. I'm looking forward to getting into it.

[01:27:49] JOSH: okay. Well you can go fuck yourself.

[01:27:51] CHRIS: There. It

[01:27:53] JAMES: And Josh, just to let Josh just to say that, like, I, I really, I was hoping if I was hoping to be on that last episode you did of Obi-Wan Kenobi, but I, I, but I'm glad we got to do this. And I was toying. If I had been on that episode, when you introduced me of saying, uh, the line you made dispense with the pleasantries, I'm here to put you back on schedule.

[01:28:14] JOSH: , well next time, please use that.

[01:28:16] JAMES: I was like,

[01:28:17] I don't

[01:28:17] JOSH: a good bit.

[01:28:18] JAMES: yeah, no.

[01:28:19] JOSH: bit.

[01:28:20] JAMES: Um, so with that audience, um, work on a wrap up this episode, uh, of Secret Origins on Obi-Wan Kenobi. Uh, again, we're in, we're in Facebook, the Facebook group, uh, we have email we're on Instagram and, uh, thank you for listening and we will talk to you next time.


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Artist/Wellness Expert/Podcaster

Host of THE SECRET ORIGINS OF MINT CONDITION podcast, featuring the kinds of discussions you used to have in your local comic shop.

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Sometimes I make things.