June 15, 2022

MAKING OFs MADE US: Star Wars Behind the Scenes

We discuss how the making-of documentaries for the Star Wars films and how they influenced our lives

This is where the magic happens.

JOSH, BRACEY, and JEFF fondly recall what it was like to first lay eyes on the galaxy of diverse artists and creative techniques hidden behind the world onscreen.

From the found sounds of designer Ben Burtt to the mesmerizing sight of a becapped British puppeteer giving Jabba's tail a good ol' thrash backwards and forwards, backwards and forwards, few types of media can be as informative and transformative as a good documentary.

So! Let's dive deep into the "gateway drug for getting into movie & TV production" better known as behind-the-scenes material. (Also discussed—what was more captivating back in the day? A BTS peek in a magazine or in movie form? Feel free to weigh in on our socials below).

NEXT WEEK: Star Wars vs. Star Trek!

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[00:00:00] Josh: Welcome to Trash Compactor. I'm Josh and joining me today is Bracey well, we're not prepared for that. And Jeff,

[00:00:14] Jeff: Hey, everybody. What's up.

[00:00:15] Josh: And today we're going to be talking about the behind the scenes material of Star Wars and our memories of it. And how I think among this group in particular, it was, I think formative is a good word is not an accurate word.

[00:00:28] Um, yeah. and I think certainly for me, my first encounter with, the behind the scenes material was, From Star Wars to Jedi that, documentary made around time of Return of the Jedi, because it came with the VHS box set from like 1990 which I know you had Bracey

[00:00:45] Bracey: Yes, and I actually just rewatched a little bit of it just to add a refresh. And I did not realize how many little, sound bites that I had taken from that. And just used throughout my life, like hello from TV land or, uh, even the guy who, uh, working in the tail. He was like backwards and

[00:01:05] forwards, backwards and forwards.

[00:01:08] I was

[00:01:08] like, oh my God,

[00:01:09] Josh: you say that all the time

[00:01:11] Bracey: I didn't even realize it was from that. I just,

[00:01:14] Jeff: Okay.

[00:01:14] Bracey: was just like, oh my God, this is, this is me.

[00:01:17] Josh: I did. I knew. And whenever you would bust out with that, I was like, wow. Bracey really is from star wars to Jedi fan, what about you, Jeff? What was your first encounter with star wars behind the scenes material? If you can recall.

[00:01:30] Jeff: You know, I led such a star wars filled childhood. That it's hard for me to like, have a distinct memory of any particular one thing, because it all floods together because I pretty much just did star wars all the time in every way I could possibly find, , for so long. But I do remember that one of the, first people who stood out. In terms of the making of the films, uh, was always been bird. And there's, there's a bunch of different behind the scenes stuff of Ben Burtt working, uh, on the different sounds. Um, but whether it's him, you know, hitting the, the, uh, metal telephone wires with a hammer to get the blaster sounds or recording bears or coming up with our arches, like that process fascinated me.

[00:02:29] And I surprisingly didn't go into sound at all. Like of all the things I do sound, isn't one of them, but especially in a pre digital age where you couldn't just like invent sounds and you had to like physically combine tracks to make new noises that didn't exist before. That's my earliest strong memory of behind the scenes stuff is just seeing Ben Burke coming up with crap out of

[00:02:58] Josh: Yeah.

[00:02:59] Jeff: Brotox.

[00:03:01] Josh: No. Yeah. He's all over the, behind the scenes material. When you get into the prequels, he edited the Phantom menace, along with, uh, George Lucas. And he was also there, like from the very beginning, I mean, more or less, like he was one of the first hires , collecting his with his, little Nagra like flying all over the country, all over the world.

[00:03:18] And just like, you know, building up the library is really a genius.

[00:03:21] Bracey: Do either of you remember if he was the one talking to John Williams about like basically in return to the Jedi, making the voices and

[00:03:29] Josh: yes,

[00:03:29] Bracey: kind of the rundown of

[00:03:31] Josh: yes.

[00:03:31] Bracey: is, this is what we discovered the way, and this is why we just like speed things up.

[00:03:37] It sounds fake. And you can't just.

[00:03:39] Josh: Yeah.

[00:03:40] Bracey: Make up a language because you just stand up using English, sounding things anyway. I was like, oh, this is fantastic. I love that. They like just dove in

[00:03:49] and really learned that

[00:03:51] Josh: Yeah. The other night I rewatched from star wars to Jedi. And I know that, exchange that you're talking about it and yeah, so that was Ben Burt, who was going through all that, explaining it to John Williams. In addition to, from star wars to Jedi, like kind of from the same period, there was the making of star wars from 77 and then there was special effects, the making of empire strikes back.

[00:04:12] And then there was, classic creatures making a return to the Jedi. And I remember the first time I saw all of those in their entirety was, um, in the nineties for one of the scifi channels, like star wars marathons. And they, showed all of those. And it was the first time that I had seen that stuff, which was like wild to me.

[00:04:33] Cause I didn't know that they existed. I had the, from star wars to Jedi VHS, but then I was like, wait a minute. Like there's, there's more of this.

[00:04:41] Jeff: Yeah, that

[00:04:41] was the stuff that I always tracked down. I

[00:04:43] mean aside from having, thankfully I've moved on from physical media and, am now saving a lot more money, but I, had all the releases on VHS. I never had a laser disc player, but I got the star wars, laser discs because the quality was so good.

[00:05:01] And then behind this,

[00:05:03] Josh: player, but I had the discs and I also had bootleg VHS that I got the dealer's room at a star Trek convention. Somebody's like made of a VHS copy of all of the laser disc special features. And I used to watch that, that video that guy. And I start drinking mentioned in like 1994.

[00:05:23] Jeff: that was the stuff that I tracked down and then books like sky walking and whatnot. Cause it's just the process was at least as interesting to me. As the films themselves. And while, you know, nowadays there'd be a million blogs covering, there are whatnot. But, um, uh, just being analytical about seeing what happened, like, um, you know, one of my favorite observations is the evolution of Ponta Baba, right?

[00:05:55] Who went from a character with barely any screen time in the Cantina, you know, to being the walrus man figure because no one knew what his name was and Kenner had to make something up and whatnot to, to eventually, um, between the, the role-playing game And later the decipher.

[00:06:14] card game and all that. Yeah, Uh, well, just, I forgot all their stuff from Western games. Um, you know, I worked with decipher for awhile, uh, on that game and like, Called the guys at west end up whenever they needed to make something like, do you already have this somewhere? Uh, and just pour through all the different manuals and supplements and stuff, because at the time no one had written any of that crap down. So anyway, the, the process of a minor character that doesn't even even have an onscreen name evolving into, like he got his own book at some point, like there's a, there's a published novel in the original nineties. You, uh, that has that deals with Punta Baba, I believe. Uh, and that came out of nowhere.

[00:07:09] And that came just because the world that was created had all these little pockets of things is just chock full of things of people. Like, I want to know more about. I want to know more about that. And that has been the most enduring takeaway of star wars when it comes to my filmmaking. And my storytelling me was just creating all this stuff that you don't spend time explaining or talking about to create that sense with the audience of them wanting to know more.

[00:07:44] Josh: Yeah, well, that's really interesting. because I agree with you, something that I learned, um, and I don't think I ever really articulated it the way you just did. I've always like aware of how you can just sketch something and not have to explain it, knowing that the audience is mind, will.

[00:08:01] they will either fill it in themselves or the idea that it's even good to leave some things unexplained or unexplored, because that's what creates the engagement from the viewers mind and what's on screen.

[00:08:14] Like they are recreating, affects similarly of it in their own mind and kind of embroidering upon it and creating their own version of it. I mean,

[00:08:22] Bracey: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, back in that time, well, if we were in a serious drought of star wars materials, so if you were into star wars, Like you didn't like, know most people today can't imagine it, but like you just didn't have everything lying around.

[00:08:40] So material that you got behind the scenes gave you, like just this window into the world that you're just like longing to get more from. I personally just remember, um, wanting to just be a fly on the wall. Like I was, I just, I think what made me a star wars fan is actually just desire to just be in any of the suits in the background.

[00:09:08] Like, you know, when I realized like, oh, I really want to be like, I like, I really

[00:09:14] Jeff: Okay.

[00:09:14] Bracey: this. Cause I was like, I didn't care about which alien, which character. I didn't care if I never saw my face. I just loved the process happen. Um, uh, through, through star wars to, from star wars to jet.

[00:09:29] I like seeing that happen just, it was so inspired.

[00:09:32] Josh: Well, that's really interesting because what you're articulating is like, you, you see, you get that window into the process of making it and your reaction was, I want to be a part of that. Like I want to be there. Right. I don't care how, but I want to be there, which is What I thought was how everybody felt.

[00:09:50] But from having conversations, I've realized that behind the scenes material wasn't as formative to every star wars fan, the way that it. Was for some of us, I mean, certainly among this group, I think, but I do think there's something to what you're saying, like the idea that, in the desert of available material, you would latch on to whatever

[00:10:07] the anything,

[00:10:08] Jeff: I mean, we all went into filmmaking. Is that part of it? I mean, because if you don't, if you're not a filmmaker, maybe the behind the scenes wasn't

[00:10:15] as big of a draw, but

[00:10:17] Josh: well, but I mean, for me though, what I'm trying to articulate is, is seeing that material, at least for me was the first time that it was like very clear, like, oh, there, there were people who do this. Like there, there are people who make the things I love.

[00:10:31] Right. And, for me as a kid, I always knew that I wanted to be involved in, tele visual cinema, whatever, And when I was really young, the first thing I thought I wanted to be was I wanted to be an actor. And if you think about it, it makes sense because they're the most visible, component from just watching a movie.

[00:10:53] It's like, oh, it's like, I want to do that. I want to be a part of that. Right. And then you learn, oh yeah, right. And then you learn, oh no, it's actually the director. who's really the one , who does this, who creates all of this. Then I was like, okay. So, so I guess director is really, what I want to be, especially when you read things like sky walking and you go through the star wars, the scenes material, which is really, kind of a , Hey, geography of George Lucas, like really playing into the tourism, of it.

[00:11:19] All right. So you think, oh,, he's the guy who did this. So like, I want to be like that guy. And then you, dive even deeper into it. And then you realize, oh no, like there are all these specialized departments and certain things like there's our separate writer, there's a separate, you know, model maker.

[00:11:33] There's a separate this and a separate that. And then once you get into it, you can specialize in like the whole bowl world opens up. So basically what I'm saying is at least for me, the behind the scenes star wars material was like a gateway drug into the mess that I've chosen for my that I'm in right now.

[00:11:51] Jeff: interesting because for me, my way into filmmaking was through storyboarding. Cause I was originally going to be a comic book artist. So I already kind of knew and had a focus on those kind of like, I don't want to say low Totally inappropriate, but, the less recognizable onset positions create a

[00:12:14] Josh: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:12:14] Jeff: that are, that are super important to getting any film done.

[00:12:18] Um, when, when I got started, uh, behind the camera, uh, I had already, I had already started going to college and would trade storyboards with like music, video directors and UCLA film students and whatnot and exchange for like, you know, make me your D for a day. You're going to train me. You're going to have a totally useless and experienced Aidy.

[00:12:44] Who's going to try really hard, but you're going to get free storyboards and exchange. Right. And it allowed me to pick up a lot of different onset skills and a lot of different, uh, onset, onset specializations. Which honestly later on, as a producer really came in handy because I knew what everybody's job was and and could put myself in their shoes as I was working with them.

[00:13:10] Josh: No for sure. you bring up a really good point. Watching all of that material and sort of absorbing it all. And I don't just mean like the TV specials, but, the books as well. The art of star wars and the art of the empire strikes back art of return of

[00:13:24] Jeff: yeah,

[00:13:24] Josh: they would show the storyboards.

[00:13:27] Right.

[00:13:28] Jeff: I

[00:13:29] Josh: that,

[00:13:29] Jeff: Joe Johnson.

[00:13:31] Josh: oh yeah, no, he, yeah. He's yeah, he's incredible.

[00:13:34] Jeff: like, Macquarie was great. Like when Corey, no, one's going to complain about Ralph McQuarrie, but the blueprint books they publish. The head, you could see just the design schematics and Joe Johnson's technical drawings of the X wings, no, money on Falcon and the tie fighters.

[00:13:50] Like those

[00:13:52] loved

[00:13:52] those so much.

[00:13:55] Josh: it's crazy. When you look at the designs, he was responsible for originating. Like they're so iconic. every single one, like even the unused stuff, it's just so like, holy shit. But yeah, like all that stuff that you, you started to figure out how a film crew worked and how a film was made through watching

[00:14:13] and reading all this behind the scenes material.

[00:14:16] And you're like, oh, okay. Like there's a, there's a concept artist. Like there's a guy whose job it is to, draw all this stuff. And then there's a guy whose job it is to, make this into physical reality. Like the art director or the production designer,

[00:14:27] Jeff: I'm such a Joe

[00:14:28] Johnson fan boy.

[00:14:29] Bracey: so much smarter than I, cause when I

[00:14:32] Josh: The fuck you talking about?

[00:14:33] Bracey: w I didn't, I didn't like, I didn't like point out like, oh yeah, this is what's happening. These are the mechanics. These are the

[00:14:39] Josh: No, no,

[00:14:40] Bracey: like, this looks like fun.

[00:14:41] Like, you know, I

[00:14:42] Josh: no dude, no. I'm that?

[00:14:44] Bracey: the fun happens that you can create shit. You can jump in front. You can act like an asshole. This is fantastic.

[00:14:50] Josh: no, that's the same thing. saying as like an eight year old, I was like, oh, he must be, he's obviously the production designer. I want to do his job. Obviously. He's only responsible for this and that guy is responsible for that. not saying that's what happened.

[00:15:02] I'm saying like, that was your first sense , that,

[00:15:05] there were. , people with different jobs and then the more you read these names would crop up again and then eventually, , without knowing it, you were learning over time through absorbing all of this material. You were sort of learning how a film crew was comprised so that, you know, later on when you would in a professional situation or like an academic situation where you're learning, you're like, oh yeah, that was, Joe Johnston on, on star wars.

[00:15:32] That's what you're talking about. I get it. I get it.

[00:15:34] Jeff: while we're here? Can we talk about, um, obviously my Georgia Lincoln's fan boy, and I don't think that that needs to be, you know, said upfront, but, uh, there are things that he's good at, and there are things that, in my opinion, he's not as good at. think, you know, and this is kind of controversial, but I don't think George Lucas is a particularly talented or exceptional director or writer.

[00:15:54] I think he's an amazing visionary in terms of conceptualism. I think one of his biggest strengths and this, is something that has impacted the filmmaking industry to this day is, he's really good. At discovering talent when it comes to his crews, there's no one that worked on the original star wars that isn't a legend still working in Hollywood today, if they're still around and able to work.

[00:16:25] also developing processes for things that no one had ever done before. I mean, sure. You've got THX and ILM and all of these like very encoded processes that became institutions unto themselves. you mentioned concept artists that made me think of Doug Chang and Doug Chang on the pre-calls was really more than a concept artists because he had this kind of like production management role over all the various departments to kind of say, okay, well, this is what was the drawing went and let's get it to the Mac app.

[00:17:05] Let's get to the full size set, you know, So w or to, into the computer rendered in 3d. Um, and that wasn't the way that it was normally done. Like the guy who sits in the back office, the beginning of preproduction drawing, all these things, doesn't usually

[00:17:21] Josh: Have any interaction with

[00:17:23] like the draftsman?

[00:17:24] Jeff: with the rest of it, but it makes sense to take that guy him in charge of everything else to make sure the end result is, you, you rid of that whole game of telephone. That

[00:17:38] Josh: Yeah.

[00:17:38] Jeff: from one department to the other, by putting the original guy in charge of it all. that's something that George is really good at is thinking, how can we do this better?

[00:17:47] Josh: No 100% just to stick with the prequels for a second, say what you will about the films themselves, but the fact

[00:17:52] that,

[00:17:53] Jeff: will.

[00:17:54] Josh: pipeline that they developed, like deciding to shoot with digital cameras, knowing that everything was going to have to be digitized anyway, not just other special effects, also the editing on the avid, like, people forget that only was Pixar originally a George Lucas

[00:18:11] Jeff: Yep.

[00:18:12] Josh: but the edit droid, the first nonlinear editing software was sold to a company called avid.

[00:18:19] And so he also created nonlinear editing, which is, today just called editing,

[00:18:25] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:18:26] Josh: like, And then, again, setting the creative success of the prequels aside, he pulled the entire industry where he wanted it to be, and now that's how, I mean, that's just how, how movies are

[00:18:37] made.

[00:18:37] Bracey: the status quo. Yeah, I,

[00:18:39] Jeff: yeah,

[00:18:40] Bracey: I would just like to push back. It's like, yes, by today's standards. Like we could say George Lucas is probably not the best director out there, but like when you, you turn that dial back and see what he had to build off of, feel like he did. I mean, it wasn't like leaning into the flow of attention.

[00:19:01] Like Spielberg can get to like where he, he just understands how to follow portray a thought and just like, keep the attention on a thought or an idea and switch, fluidly with, with little frequent, uh, without little friction, George Lucas was like, I've got this idea. And I want to get it on a screen and the way to do that just doesn't exist yet.

[00:19:27] so I'm going to create everything to make that happen. And I think that deserves note, like just

[00:19:36] Jeff: I,

[00:19:36] Bracey: like any other direct one, else? A, a director,

[00:19:40] Jeff: and,

[00:19:41] Josh: For sure.

[00:19:41] Jeff: that's his legacy. That's what he does is he creates things that don't exist so that he can make the movie he wants to make. Um, and yeah, you can say that's part of directing. Although most directors who don't own their own major studios don't necessarily have that kind of leeway. but he's definitely good at that.

[00:20:03] Josh:

[00:20:03] two thoughts, brings up what you just said, the way you were, describing how Spielberg works and how he follows through on an idea and is able to guide you through it and divert your attention. Like, Very subtly and in a really kind of an effortless way.

[00:20:15] He's manipulating you to, you to see and think, exactly what he wants you to say. George Lucas. He, famously he was an avant-garde experimental filmmaker who was an editor first and foremost. And what he does is he puts things together that shouldn't necessarily be together or you wouldn't think to put together.

[00:20:36] results of that are not always, as smooth as maybe how, Spielberg would handle something. , I'm just thinking, like, he kind of assaults senses and throws a lot of information at you and, not to get too in the weeds on this, but the magic of editing is that your mind creates meaning through the juxtaposition of these separate images and your mind sort of.

[00:20:59] Sees the through-line and the editor's job is to know what will have, what effect when and we'll guide you and one, so I would say, George Lucas, I think his process is to, to put things up against each other and see what comes out. Right.

[00:21:17] Bracey: yeah.

[00:21:17] Josh: And that can be a less palatable, kind of experience the way that I put it on the other pod.

[00:21:22] Jeff, I think George Lucas is simply more interested in, certain aspects of filmmaking and completely unconcerned with other aspects of filming.

[00:21:31] Bracey: I would say mechanics.

[00:21:32] Jeff: I totally agree on that. I think that's why his most enduring best work has always been when there are that he respects enough to, to,

[00:21:44] Josh: To handle this stuff.

[00:21:45] He doesn't care about.

[00:21:46] Jeff: yeah. to handle this stuff. He doesn't care about.

[00:21:48] but also to do it in a way where they can push back against. Which I think got, got and less over the years is George Lucas became George Lucas. , there are fewer people in a position to, to say George that's bad idea.

[00:22:02] Bracey: I agree with that. I say, I think he's, he's interested in the mechanics where somebody like Spielberg is interested in the craft. Like they're both interested in, uh, of a craft to some extent, but like a Spielberg will lean into the craft of like a director and what he can direct and do. Whereas jurors, look, it's just like, all right, Hey, uh, I wanna, I want to be able to do this thing and I can't do it.

[00:22:28] Let's let's figure out how to put this

[00:22:30] together.

[00:22:30] Josh: so this is an interesting segue actually into, the, behind the scenes material from the prequels. I remember when the episode one DVD, came out, the main special feature was this documentary called the beginning.

[00:22:43] That was. Not a traditional documentary with, you know, a narrator and talking head interviews. It was like a fly on the wall documentary where obviously when they embarked on this , project of, making the first star wars movie in over a decade, , they documented the whole process.

[00:22:59] And, they showed the whole process, warts and all like, even to the point where, the famous, uh, Plunkett pre-qual reviews, red letter, media guys, a lot of the stuff that he uses as, weapons against. Lucas to make his points come from that very documentary.

[00:23:18] Like, the moment when they watched the first rough cut in its entirety and George Luca says, I may have gone too far in a few places. And, the moment where, he says, you know, it's like he says, it's like poetry, it rhymes. They use all these moments from this documentary as sort of, exhibit a, B, C, and D that like they were doing a bad job or something. When in actuality, I think that's a really, brave, insightful, cool documentary to, be available because it, it does walk you through the whole process and shows you those moments when even George Lucas, himself, like he's watching this rough guy.

[00:23:58] And he's like, I think I may have gone a little too far. And then they talk about how to mitigate the jerking around this of it. I think they're talking about the N sequence in the Phantom minutes when you're intercutting between four separate action sequences '

[00:24:10] Jeff: 'cause that was a good idea.

[00:24:12] Josh: if you think about it though, it's really an extension from return to the Jedi where it was three and empire strikes back.

[00:24:16] It was two. And then the Phantom menace is, four. And, George Lucas even says, and from star wars to Jetta from 1983, he says, he's always trying to see how much information, how fast he can move until it becomes incomprehensible. Right. And seeing that moment in the beginning.

[00:24:33] He was realizing, I think I may have found that line.

[00:24:37] Bracey: I found the

[00:24:38] Jeff: Yeah.

[00:24:39] Josh: Yeah.

[00:24:39] Bracey: or at least the pacing, like, like, or least it exceeded his ability to actually weave them together. Like he couldn't weave these four things together at the pace and the way that he was doing it.

[00:24:52] Josh: right. To go back to the blanket review, he plays a clip where he's talking to Rick McCallum and Ben Burt, right after the screening. And he's like, you can't really remove any one of those components because it's designed to be that way. but you can mitigate the effects of it.

[00:25:07] And, plink says something like, what the fuck does that mean? That is complete horseshit. And I'm like, no, dude, like that actually makes complete sense. you constructed it. You can't remove any one of those components because that's what you've set up. And that's building you've designed.

[00:25:21] So it'd be like having a building with only three walls instead of four, but you can make it, so it's a little less jarring and that's what he's talking about. And I think that's a really valuable, fascinating window into, I mean, not just George Lucas's process, but the filmmaking creative process in general.

[00:25:39] And I think it's really cool. Like they didn't have to show that on the official DVD and they did, and I think that's really cool.

[00:25:48] Jeff: I will say there are more behind the scenes documentaries that are done in that style where it's a montage piecemeal of a fly on the wall footage of the production. Um, again, it's another thing that kind of became the standard because. Getting ready for this. Uh, watch the beginning first and then I watched, the director and the Jedi. Uh, and then I went back to from star wars, Jedi to refresh my memory on that, uh, last and having the behind the scenes documentary I'd forgotten how much of that documentary was mark Hamill, narrating to carry it from bits a bit, you know, w with some better dialogue and some better lines to say and some bad ones.

[00:26:42] Uh, and just how much of that documentary is just like 60, 90, you know, 120 seconds of actual scenes from the film.

[00:26:55] Josh: Yeah.

[00:26:55] Jeff: at a go, uh, before they get into anything, that's actually behind the scenes. I mean, I didn't actually count it out, but it feel, it felt like half of from star wars to Jedi is made up of scenes either from star wars, empire, Jedi, as opposed to actual BTS.

[00:27:16] Josh: Oh, well, no, You're right. I think, that has to do with, the technology available. I mean, back when they were shooting a behind the scenes material, in like the late seventies and the early eighties, like you were shooting on, on, on 16 mil and you were making noise and it was heavy and you needed a separate sound guy.

[00:27:33] And then, you get to, the mid nineties, you have a guy with a high eight camcorder who can just kind of keep to himself and just shoot a whole bunch of tape. And it's, I mean tape is cheap or was cheap, compared to film. and I think that there was also an awareness by the nineties that, somebody will want to see all of this someday. But the idea that you would have footage of every part of the process was like, who the fuck's going to watch that, like, who cares?

[00:27:57] Right.

[00:27:57] Bracey: Actually that reminds me, oh, let's see if I, can jog a memory of yours, taking you all the way back to early nineties, late eighties channel,

[00:28:07] did

[00:28:08] Josh: movie magic, movie magic.

[00:28:10] Bracey: Yes.

[00:28:11] Yeah,

[00:28:13] Jeff: You had to ask it's Josh.

[00:28:15] Bracey: Yeah, no. So did I, and actually, I don't know if that was my gateway drug into, uh, from star wars to Jedi or, or vice versa, but in my mind, the two are interconnected as this love of watching the behind the scenes. And nobody watched that show.

[00:28:35] Josh: They did do an episode, like, look, I think the format of it was they, would, be documenting some contemporary movie and then whatever they were doing, they would like go through, the history of , how other movies, throughout the 20th century, what the techniques had been that led to whatever this new movie was doing now.

[00:28:54] Um, they went back to star wars a whole lot of times. I know that there was one, um, where they were talking about, , compositing, separate

[00:29:03] elements of film and that painting, Yeah.

[00:29:06] Bracey: different,

[00:29:07] Josh: Oh, fuck.

[00:29:08] Jeff: Cinefex in the eighties and nineties?

[00:29:10] Bracey: Yeah.

[00:29:11] Josh: in the nineties. Yeah.

[00:29:12] Jeff: Yeah. that, and tangentially related. had a Fangoria subscription really

[00:29:17] early on,

[00:29:18] Josh: I was also big into Starlog, which had a lot of really great in-depth articles about the making of lots of movies. I mean, not just star wars, their star wars, coverage was obviously fantastic. Cinema, fantastic.

[00:29:29] Jeff: those behind the scenes magazines were at least as influential on me as the documentary stuff was maybe more so, because I could actually just stare at that page as long as I wanted to, until I had absorbed. Everything that was happening and whatever BTS photograph was was in front of.

[00:29:46] Bracey: for me that was exactly the opposite. Like I would read that stuff. I would like halfway through a page and I just stopped reading because like, it didn't inspire me the way that watching the behind the scenes data of anything, whether that was moving magic or, or from star wars or any other thing, because what I would tend to do is take what little bit of information I got and then try to recreate it, using whatever I had,

[00:30:12] which like led to me

[00:30:14] Josh: that's that? That's so brave. That's so you man. That's so you see a little bit and you're like, oh shit, wait, I think I can do that.

[00:30:20] Jeff: So, so while we're on differences, I did the same thing. I just saved a lot of time and money and effort. By only recreating it all in my head,

[00:30:29] Josh: ah,

[00:30:29] Jeff: in a very detailed process, like every single aspect of, and by the time I was done figuring out how to do it, I didn't actually have to do it because I already knew.

[00:30:40] Bracey: I went, I went all the way. I remember specifically watching like green screen stuff and thinking, well, the most important thing is that I have a backdrop, uh, that is a single color. I didn't have any like editing tools or effecting tools or anything.

[00:30:56] Josh: Neither did I

[00:30:57] Bracey: black backdrop.

[00:30:58] And I remember using like the puppet, like the Muppet, um, and like trying to.

[00:31:05] Jeff: compositing first is easy. It's a great thing to start on.

[00:31:08] Bracey: Yeah, no, I've had, I had no clue and then, oh, but at least I got like a sense of it, which ultimately I feel like actually did come into play later on in, in my, career, while we were doing other projects. But like, I just had to get a sense of it. Like and that's, that's why it just, it, for me personally, the behind the scenes, , footage always meant more to me or like that narrative, seeing it play out as a film, always meant more to me than the magazine.

[00:31:37] Jeff: Did either of you guys ever do VHS tape to tape editing?

[00:31:40] Josh: I did. And I was actually just about to say I actually think, we got fucked over a little bit,

[00:31:47] Jeff: wait, I can curse. Great.

[00:31:49] Josh: yeah. because I was always so frustrated with how hard it was to, edit the video that I was shooting. and now just hearing you talk, had, we come of age in the time of like super eight film, it was physical.

[00:32:04] So we wouldn't have, had to do those, Daisy chain of, of like of a VA, uh, VCRs to get like a very shitty, rudimentary edit. we would have been able to just literally splice the film and do it. I remember in the very late nineties, I was trying to get my hands on a copy of Adobe premier, because that's what all the, the magazine said, like, that's how you edit video now.

[00:32:25] , that was like my holy grail. Like I was trying to find someone to get me a copy. Like I asked, asked my parents and they looked at the price tag and I don't know what it retailed for in 1997, but it was at least a

[00:32:35] Jeff: You know, it was like, Yeah. I think it was

[00:32:36] like 1500 bucks.

[00:32:38] Josh: And my parents were like, uh,

[00:32:39] Bracey: no chance.

[00:32:41] Josh: I mean, no.

[00:32:42] Bracey: no, I

[00:32:42] did all my editing in camera. would

[00:32:45] Josh: yeah,

[00:32:46] Bracey: doing

[00:32:46] everything and I was like, I'm never going to be able to

[00:32:48] edit this thing. So I got to do all my shots

[00:32:51] Josh: too. So I would too, but that would, limit what I was trying to replicate was they were doing in the, behind the scenes stuff. And I was like, but to do that, I need to, I can't, it's like, I can't, it's like, I need to, I need to edit. I need to edit.

[00:33:06] Jeff: But, but here's, here's the thing that blows my mind because look, insert editing tape tape is terrible and camera editing, terrible experience, nothing could or whatever. Right. But you brought up compositing Bracey and filmed a film compositing where you're actually trying to get an element into a physical frame of film and just the right spot over multiple.

[00:33:29] Like that blows my mind that this was all done like that,

[00:33:34] Josh: Yeah.

[00:33:35] Jeff: runner, which was in camera and even crazier. you would have to physically transfer the tie fighter from one piece of film onto another piece of film that had the millennium Falcon and the Starfield already on it, and then throw in 80,000 asteroids or whatever.

[00:33:52] Like that's, I, I would not want to work that way. I can't believe anyone ever.

[00:33:59] Bracey: I mean, but that's because we have the appetite for the speed at which we can do stuff now. Whereas when they came at this, it didn't exist. And I think, think if you look at it through that lens, like it, at least for me, it's just fascinating, like realizing like, Hey, if we do this really obscure process of shooting or like laying down what we would look like, what would look like a star field and then process that film and then project that film and then do like, you know, uh, do different processes where we could separate the backdrop from another layer and then layer up these two of film and then shoot that as it that's like, I just love the brains that were behind that thinking through this process of like, how can we make this happen?

[00:34:50] Because this does, it just doesn't happen if we don't make it. I love that.

[00:34:55] Jeff: Yeah.

[00:34:55] Bracey: I I, kinda, I kinda long for that,

[00:34:58] Jeff: For the actual physical, the actual physical medium.

[00:35:02] Bracey: no, uh, the actual limitation, like, I feel like I

[00:35:06] Jeff: Gotcha.

[00:35:06] Bracey: for that limitation, because, uh, something about the mechanic as well as the craft is what's interesting to me, it's like the craft of directing is great, but I feel like found, I, I, found some heart in George.

[00:35:25] Lucas's like longing to just craft this thing or find a way it an own beaten

[00:35:33] Jeff: my, my thing was like, as much as I'm amazed by the physical process of working with film and getting what I just talked about done for me, that physical medium part was always the one. Interesting and point, cause I never shot anything on super eight. Right.

[00:35:51] I sh I went from tape to digital. I never, never, I've never shot on film of all the things that I've shot. Um, the, the, the fascinating part for me was always the tricks

[00:36:06] by that is how you make something look great in a frame on set, even if it really doesn't, if you're looking at it from other angle and, and like an example of this, I dunno if you guys have your own favorite, like original trilogy trilogy making a trivia but the rebel hanger on your oven, right?

[00:36:30] There's like one real echoing. I think there's a real Y wing and everything else is just painted plywood in the background,

[00:36:38] but you can't tell. Because as far as the camera's concerned, it looks like a hanger full of ships. Even though if you took one little step to the side, would all fall apart.

[00:36:50] Because the way that they did it was honestly no. different than how people did stage plays, it's flat 2d background elements.

[00:37:01] And

[00:37:02] that, that

[00:37:03] Bracey: that.

[00:37:05] Jeff: the, the tricking, the camera, like that was always the part that, that fascinated me as is, is hard.

[00:37:11] Josh: one of my favorite shots is, , from return of the Jedi, model of the shield generator that, explodes, , the whole thing was in camera. Dennis Mirren had this, idea that if you, create like of model, you would create the illusion of like the haziness in the distance.

[00:37:31] So you had, you know, like trees in the foreground, and then on the next layer, you would have trees that were like slightly lighter and smaller, and then you would have like, like . So, so it would create that same. thing that happens, when you're looking far off into the distance and that whole shot was in camera. And it was just one of those things where he was like, I think I have an idea. I think, I think I might be able to pull this off in camera and we won't have to do any compositing.

[00:37:58] And they were like, yeah, sure, Dennis, and, and he did it and it's,

[00:38:01] Bracey: And it's history.

[00:38:02] Josh: Yeah. And

[00:38:02] it's great. Um,

[00:38:03] Jeff: to, by the way, he's a little,

[00:38:06] Josh: have you spoken to him.

[00:38:07] Jeff: and awkward because I don't think he was expecting anyone to talk to him. but I went to an event and like, you know, um, Peter was there and Anthony was there and even George was there, although they didn't get talked to him. Um, but you know, Dennis was also there and.

[00:38:23] Most of the people that were, there were not particularly interested in Dennis Mira and they were interested in Anthony Daniels or, you know, the other cast members. Um, but I was like really fascinating talk to him and I must have, I must have talked his ear off for like 20 minutes. And he was very gracious and very nice.

[00:38:41] And, um, on the one hand, I think he, he, he appreciated having a conversation who was with, with a fan who was obviously legitimately interested in his work. Um, but at the same time you could tell he wasn't expecting

[00:39:00] Bracey: used to it.

[00:39:01] Jeff: yeah, it wasn't used to it.

[00:39:03] Josh: yeah, he's always, he always struck me as kind of the mad scientist. Uh, he reminds me of like doc brown. Hearing you talk about how George Lucas really was creating these processes, like figuring out how to build what he needed to, do what exactly what he wants.

[00:39:19] Because if you move from the beginning documentary of episode one, the equivalent on episode two is called, , from puppets, , to pixels. And like the arc of that was, how they did the digital Yoda and how you get from where they were with digital effects and digital characters to being able to create. Yoda as a CG creation and it's a fascinating documentary. Like, it's really interesting to watch the process, but I can't help, but like, a lot of guys hunched over computer monitors. It doesn't have that same, like, like, like, yeah. I mean, like you were

[00:39:56] saying, Bracey like the way you were describing.

[00:39:58] Jeff: You could say it's less entertaining to watch that kind of behind the scenes process, but that whole thing is like an Ian Malcolm moment for me. Right? like that that's the epitome of when filmmaking hit the drastic park moment of not asking whether they should, um, know, attacking the clones is by far my least favorite star wars film to begin with.

[00:40:19] Um, but I think part of it, and, and you had mentioned earlier, Both of you actually about the willingness to explore and the willingness to push boundaries and try new things and figure out how far is too far. Um, you know, I think that is a really good example of, where you really saw in the theater for the first time.

[00:40:47] An example of, when the new fangled CG could be too much, at least for me,

[00:40:52] Josh: Yeah. I mean, I'm sympathetic to what you're saying, but you know, again, I know kids who grew up with the prequels, who, , for them, the prequels are their star wars and the way that, I'm sure that they would, , compare a CG shot from attack of the clones to something that is in a contemporary movie and like, acknowledge like, okay, this one is better than that one.

[00:41:14] But, um, I mean, it's hard to say, like, because it's like a taste thing it's an aesthetic thing. I have what I like. But I'm always very hesitant to be like, well, that is objective. You know what I mean?

[00:41:25] Jeff: But see, I, I don't think that was necessarily what I was talking about because I mean, you're right. Th there's stuff that holds up and stuff that doesn't, and that's going to be the case with any developing technology. I think with the attack of the clones, you had the peak moment in the prequels that started in, in Phantom Meadows, where creative decisions were made purely because technology made them possible and not in service to the story.

[00:41:55] Right?

[00:41:56] that, that, to me, I

[00:41:57] think there's stuff that's in those movies. That's only there because they could, and not because it made the movie better, right? Regardless of how or poorly the actual effects

[00:42:09] Josh: sure.

[00:42:09] Jeff: pulled off and how, how well they stand up.

[00:42:11] Josh: Yeah. I mean, something that always stands out to me that actually, uh, kind of baffled me at the time, they were talking about how they did. construct a physical suit armor for the clone troopers. All the clone troopers were 100% CG and they were, boasting about that as if it was an accomplishment.

[00:42:28] And in some regards, like, yes, it is an accomplishment, at the same time, it's kind of like, well, what, why,

[00:42:34] Jeff: Yeah.

[00:42:36] Josh: like what, like, why did you do it that way?

[00:42:38] Jeff: would you have a conveyor belt seen on diagnosis without that stuff? Or would someone have actually said, you know what, maybe that's not a great idea.

[00:42:45] It's not worth, like, if you had to build that, if you had to build that sequence out practically with, with see-through view and the whole conveyor belt thing or whatever.

[00:42:53] Josh: yeah. I

[00:42:53] mean, you

[00:42:54] wouldn't have done it. Yeah.

[00:42:55] Jeff: limitations would have forced you to do it differently and probably better service to the store.

[00:43:00] Josh: Well, so this is something very interesting because, I just had a conversation, recently about return of the Jedi. And one of the things we were talking about was that in the earlier drafts, before , they settled on, the second death star in the various iterations, one of the concepts was, the final battle was going to happen over the Imperial capital, which was a city planet that would eventually be named, course, but had another name in that conceptual stage and the reason they didn't do the city planet, was because George Lucas, didn't think that they could, pull it off effectively with models and with the amount of sets that they would have to construct.

[00:43:43] He didn't think that they could do it. when he's gone on record, you know, saying this many, many times, and I was always like, I really understand what you're talking about, but he said that he had to wait until the, technology was at a level to realize what he had in mind for the prequels.

[00:43:57] And that's the only example that I know of specifically, because if you think about it and the next movie they have at city planet, right. They do realize that world in the very next movie, It is interesting because guess I, for one would have loved to have seen what, 1983 technology, how that would have created that sort of an environmental.

[00:44:19] , just as someone who appreciates, you know, model work and obviously, runner, did a pretty good, I wonder how much of those limitations were in his own mind if you will

[00:44:31] Jeff: no, it's a

[00:44:31] good question. And, and the, the counterpoint that I'd say is he said the same thing about Java

[00:44:36] Josh: sure.

[00:44:38] Jeff: and,

[00:44:38] Josh: Yeah,

[00:44:39] Jeff: know, to pull it off when he had to

[00:44:41] Josh: yeah, I mean, that's sort of

[00:44:42] Jeff: no, I'm,

[00:44:43] Josh: no, well,

[00:44:43] Jeff: the Jedi job. I'm talking about real job, but not.

[00:44:46] Not

[00:44:47] Josh: yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:44:48] Jeff: I'm talking about the scene that he shot for star wars, that he ended up cutting

[00:44:52] Josh: Right.

[00:44:53] Jeff: he couldn't make Java work in the hangar scene.

[00:44:55] Josh: well that, well, so it is interesting too, because, there's that very famous, uh, it's like a meme or whatever that, I see pop up on the internet every once in a while, where it's like a picture of George Lucas. That was the cover for one of the versions of, from star wars to Jedi, where it's him surrounded by all of the models and the puppets.

[00:45:11] Right.

[00:45:12] Jeff: There.

[00:45:13] Josh: right next to him on set of episode three, where it's just him and he's surrounded by green screen and he's like, they're like, you know, holding his Starbucks. Right. and what, I think that illustrates And I think this is a real thing, but there's a reason he didn't want to direct a movie again for, for 20 years.

[00:45:34] I mean, there's a reason why he didn't want to direct the empire strikes back. Didn't want to direct the turn of the Jedi because the process of trying to realize like 30% of what was in his head on screen, literally almost killed him, did destroy his marriage. So the idea that he's like, I don't want to make another movie like this until it gets easier.

[00:46:01] Jeff: But to swing it back around to where we started. I think the fact that, that we got cursed directing empire is the reason it's the best movie of the entire series.

[00:46:10] Josh: Yes.

[00:46:11] Jeff: know, because as Brian pointed out the character stuff that is so critical to that movie is in that, that kind of realm of stuff George doesn't care about and purchase amazing

[00:46:22] at it, you know?

[00:46:23] Bracey: I, I, so

[00:46:24] It just so happens that, uh, in my life, when episode one episode two was coming out, that happened to be a period in my life, uh, where I had, I didn't realize that I was going to be doing film. Like I had no, uh, no direction in my life that was going to lead me in that I was like finishing up high school uh, I had gone into a community college and it was only through a community college I realized, taking a film class that I was like, oh, I love this.

[00:46:56] Like I want to do this. And I got, introduced to editing like on, super eight and stuff like that. And then I chose my, uh, my college, the university because of that, and ended up to Binghamton where I met, uh, I met Josh, uh, but then also really fell in love, uh, shooting on a Bolex getting, fell in love with, uh, shooting 16 millimeter film.

[00:47:18] , and it was at that time that I got introduced to the, behind the scenes, kind of a docu series that was leading up to the release of revenge of the Sith.

[00:47:28] Josh: John wanted me to mention, he specifically remembered you, me and him. We would gather around the computer. Right. And we would watch the

[00:47:38] new. Yeah. And we would watch the new one of those little featurettes every time a new one dropped.

[00:47:45] Bracey: Yeah. Yeah. And that became that, uh, is what pulled me back. That whole thing kind of pulled me back to the stuff I loved and, uh, the behind the scenes feeling where, where I had, like for about a decade, I feel like just completely went a completely different direction and then found my way back to filmmaking.

[00:48:05] And then through you guys at basement of our college TV station, um, or our college TV station that was in the basement, rediscovering like, this is, this is better than this is better than the past or movies. Like, you know, I just remember getting so hyped watching the behind the scenes and thinking, oh man, they did this.

[00:48:25] All right, this, this looks so fantastic.

[00:48:28] Josh: but that's also interesting because of the way then, at that point, they were really using through the internet and through the new technology that was available, they were using now the behind the scenes, knowing that there were people like you and people like me and people like Jeff that were out there, um, knowing that there was a way to utilize the behind the scenes to, to build up that, , that anticipation, using it as a marketing tool,

[00:48:50] Bracey: Yeah. And it worked.

[00:48:52] Josh: Yeah. yeah.

[00:48:53] Jeff: I want to go someplace dangerous, but I too remember that whole time. And that whole process, even though I didn't know, you guys didn't, I didn't get shared with you. and I went through that too. I remember it very Well actually. and I would just like to point out that even though, Phantom medicine attack of the clones had taken its fair share of flack from the star wars fan community who were of disappointed the movies, not being what they were hoping for.

[00:49:24] I don't remember a single second, though everybody knew his name, I don't remember a single second of Rick McCollum getting the sign of the kind of crap that

[00:49:33] Kathy Kennedy gets on like a daily basis

[00:49:37] Josh: Well that

[00:49:38] Jeff: was no one going, oh, Rick McCallum is such a, know, is killing star wars, blah, blah, blah, same job, same position.

[00:49:46] Josh: yes,

[00:49:46] Bracey: multiple

[00:49:47] Jeff: there's,

[00:49:47] Bracey: for that.

[00:49:48] Jeff: there's

[00:49:48] Josh: yes.

[00:49:49] Jeff: difference between them. I'm not gonna, you know,

[00:49:52] Josh: Yeah, no. I would say broadly speaking, you're writing and I do hear what you're getting at. I think a lot of it is, you know, is very genuine sexism and just like a basic lack of understanding of how films are made.

[00:50:03] And I also think it's a lack of, you know, there's this weird thing that has happened where like, fans sort of wagging the dog now. Right? Like they feel like they are entitled to certain things and should , be catered to when, in my opinion, like that is the enemy of

[00:50:21] a creativity and

[00:50:22] Jeff: like rise of Skywalker,

[00:50:24] right? Which is the original Snyder cut, really. and and to me, uh, did nothing to make it a better.

[00:50:33] Josh: yeah, I mean, I just want to say your words, not mine. I don't want to cast

[00:50:35] Jeff: Yeah, sure.

[00:50:37] I will go ahead. I'll tell you I'll do all the disbursing for everyone.

[00:50:41] Josh: but there, there is, um, I think a big difference between, SQL trilogy and the Disney output and everything that had come, previously for the first time. And I know that this is gonna sound strange, but their reason for being is a purely commercial one. And that is not to

[00:51:00] Jeff: I've never understood that argument. I've never understood that argument because like there was star wars, everything. When I grew up,

[00:51:09] you know, in the seventies and eighties, there was star wars. Every there was ceramic star wars, C3, tape, dispensers,

[00:51:16] like for scotch tape.

[00:51:17] Josh: Here's the distinction. I'm absolutely not arguing that it was not about making money

[00:51:23] until Disney. It, it, 100% absolutely was a commercial enterprise and trying to make as much money as, possible. I'm not disputing that. All I'm saying is that those movies existed. There was a, there was a story one artist for better or worse wanted to tell, and that was the reason why these movies existed.

[00:51:43] And now, it's a foregone conclusion. There is going to be more, and now they just have to find someone to fill the slot. Like these movies are going to happen, whether you like it or not. Right. Like, they will find someone to make them,

[00:51:53] Jeff: I'm not sure I buy that either because yes. I mean, you can't underscore, the importance of George Lucas, but it was never just him. To, to say that it was that the first six movies are, I think the prequel trilogy does more fall into the idea of a, a single voice. And I think, you know, you can, Ty,

[00:52:18] Josh: No. I mean, what I mean by that?

[00:52:20] Jeff: to that? voice or not whatever, but I mean, you, you, you, you can't take away from, I mean, we've talked about our encouraged our, we haven't done like Lawrence Kazdin, like you can't take away from his part in making the

[00:52:31] original trilogy what it

[00:52:33] was. And coming back for this equal trilogy to do

[00:52:36] that.

[00:52:36] Josh: you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. Like, those movies wouldn't have been made of George Lucas didn't want to make them, right.

[00:52:43] Jeff: Yeah. I

[00:52:44] mean,

[00:52:45] Bracey: And that's that singular voice. There's like a dictator to the star wars, production machine,

[00:52:51] running that thing.

[00:52:52] And he cut it off for a long time

[00:52:54] Jeff: know and

[00:52:55] I'm still a little bitter about that.

[00:52:57] Josh: well, so, but that, that 16 year gap, like everyone was telling him, like, just make another star wars movie, like just make another star wars. Like you're sitting on like a go.

[00:53:05] Like he, he, he didn't have it in him. He didn't want to do it. He, he was burnt out. He was uninterested and it wasn't until he got reinspired for better or worse that he was like, okay, I'm ready. I'm ready to do this. and this is not me shitting on. The Disney movies and the Disney output.

[00:53:20] I love a lot of it unabashedly. I think that a lot of it is really great. there is a distinction you know, now we live, we live in a world where , there will never be a last star wars. , there's going to be new star wars for my entire life that will continue until after I'm dead.

[00:53:39] Right. And, you know, there was something about the, um, the, yeah, like the scarcity of it. That, that is, gone. Now. Now look like that. Doesn't I'm not saying that they shouldn't make any more star wars. but like, this just sort of reality of the world that we live in. We live in, a capitalist society and like the culture industry we'll, we'll need to make as much money as possible.

[00:54:06] And so you get a, franchise and, uh, an IP like, star wars and with the incentives being what they are, you'd be crazy not to make as much star wars as you could, as long as it makes more than.

[00:54:16] Jeff: but

[00:54:16] it's

[00:54:16] possible.

[00:54:17] Bracey: hanging on it now, too. Like, like Disney having whole parks and rides and now hotels that are like dependent on like new people coming into the star wars fold, this promise that there will be new things for them to discover. Like it, it requires it's a machine, a machine that requires new stuff to keep running oral, still lose the, that the lose on liability

[00:54:48] Jeff: So, so let me take it from, let me take that point from a different angle. And I do agree that you can absolutely oversaturate and inundate and any property. And I think, you know, one thing that, that we see from Disney with both Marvel and star wars is kind of trying to figure out where that line is. Um, that set for me, one of the things that make star wars, probably the most influential property of mine.

[00:55:16] Uh, is its presence as a story world and the absolute fullness to the brim of all of these stories that went untold and could be taught. And it's part of why I, you. know, when in the nineties it was books and comics that devoured all of that, you know, whether it had anything to do with the main characters or not, whether I, had anything to do with the, the, the original trilogy timeline or not, there always been, the world is so vast.

[00:55:51] so dense that to me, Disney acquiring Lucasfilm was one of the best things that possibly could have happened to it because we have

[00:56:01] Josh: I agree with you.

[00:56:03] Jeff: war movies like rogue, one that would have never gotten made. Ever, and we have seen the Mandalorian

[00:56:12] Josh: I, I agree with you

[00:56:13] Jeff: we're, we're, we're finally able to explore different genres of storytelling to explore different nooks and crannies of the universe in different ways able to accomplish things that you could only do with something like the decipher card game or the west end games role-playing game. Um,

[00:56:33] Josh: with you.

[00:56:33] Jeff: love that, you. know, is it over, is it going to work every single time? Probably not, but that's not the point for me. I would rather see less dependence on core story elements. Like it's great that Boba Fett came back and we got some of that, you know, I'm not knocking that show at all, but I don't need a show about. Right. I want to show about either unexplored characters or new characters or show me new things, you know? Um, give me something like rogue one, give me something like Mandalorian, give me things that flesh out the lore beyond. And I think there, they are kind of falling into that trap of, uh, you.

[00:57:15] know, now Luke's back now.

[00:57:17] I, I do like how they're tying everything together a bit in bookable, but, um,

[00:57:24] I don't,

[00:57:25] Josh: offing I think is going to be doing exactly what you're talking about. I mean, like the high Republic stuff I think is setting the stage for like a new TV series. And eventually I think films, I think they are, doing exactly what you're talking about.

[00:57:36] Jeff: I don't need a bunch of, I appreciate it, but I don't need a bunch of, Hey, remember the emperor, here's the emperor,

[00:57:43] you know, kind of

[00:57:44] thing. and I think.

[00:57:46] Having raised backstory and last Jedi, that to me was way more star wars than having her be the emperor's granddaughter,

[00:57:54] right?

[00:57:54] Josh: so that actually brings me to, I do want to talk, a little bit about director and the Jedi, other

[00:58:00] Jeff: Yeah.

[00:58:00] Josh: about the making of the last Jedi, which for reasons that I sadly do understand, but, but, but still kind of shocked and sad to me is like the most divisive thing to happen to star wars since, uh, the special additions or no, I guess,

[00:58:17] Bracey: It's just the most divisive thing to happen to star wars. I think that's, you're just

[00:58:20] Josh: Yeah. Yeah, no fair.

[00:58:22] Jeff: Bracy. Where's where's the last Jedi on your list.

[00:58:25] If you

[00:58:26] Bracey: it's, it's

[00:58:26] Jeff: order.

[00:58:28] Bracey: um, it's, it's probably at the top. Um, I'm not entirely sure these days, cause I haven't I have a completely different feeling watching this stuff again now. But coming from a creative filmmaker storyteller, like I think Lashanda is probably the best, best star wars movie out there.

[00:58:51] And I would, I mean, I, uh, for me like it, it doesn't stand without the things that came before

[00:58:57] Jeff: Yeah,

[00:58:58] Bracey: for being, but as far as like what it's trying to do, I, I think at this point in my life, I would put that above empire. Like I think it's damn good.

[00:59:09] Josh: I love it. It's in my top five, I think it's number three. it's like, I like it more, the return of the Jedi, I would rank it higher the return of the Jedi, but like the original star wars and empire strikes back, like, like at the end of the day, because of, childhood, because of what those two movies represented, like, you know what they did,

[00:59:26] Jeff: We're the, we're the worst star wars podcast apparently ever. Cause we're supposed to be shitting on Ryan Johnson and we're supposed to be,

[00:59:32] but I've

[00:59:32] got it at number two. I've got it. I've got it. Number two. it's like

[00:59:36] for me, it's it's it's empire than the last yet. I then star wars then rogue one, then returned.

[00:59:41] Josh: Is very close. I would say for me, star wars and empire switch and the two and three spot switch. It's like, you know, uh, best wars. Um,

[00:59:53] Jeff: But, but empire and teal J are,

[00:59:55] also very similar. And I think Ryan Johnson's approach and Kershaw's approach. We're very similar.

[01:00:01] Josh: I agree.

[01:00:02] It's yes.

[01:00:03] Jeff: out what Ryan Johnson was doing, cause we watched it together and we saw it twice the same night.

[01:00:07] Josh: Yeah.

[01:00:07] Jeff: time I was like, what the hell did I just watch?

[01:00:09] Because it wasn't what I was expecting. What I felt like was being set up by, uh, um, the force of weekends

[01:00:15] Josh: Right.

[01:00:16] Jeff: the second time, of trying to watch the movie that I expected them to make, I watched the movie they actually made and I was so onboard and so sold and it brought back so many of those empire strikes back kind of vibes where it's

[01:00:31] Josh: Which is exactly, I think, and again, I wasn't around, I'm only, reading what was said at the time, but, but I believe that was the reaction people had empire strikes back. That's not they were expecting the SQL to star wars. I think, you know, there was a reason why, I mean, not that box office is like the end all be all, but empire was, I think still, the lowest, box office of the three, think it was less of a crowd pleaser yet you look all these years later and everyone's like, yeah, I mean, empire is obviously

[01:01:00] the best.

[01:01:01] Jeff: by far the one that's most likely to be named as someone's favorite movie, if

[01:01:05] Josh: Yeah.

[01:01:05] Jeff: them what their favorite star wars movie is empire far, including the prequel era,

[01:01:12] Josh: Yeah. And I think the last Jedi, I was doing something very similar and that it was really, challenging the audience, really, doing a lot of things on a lot of levels and it was not giving you what you expected. And I frankly I was shocked that we got a movie that good.

[01:01:28] Bracey: Yeah, like it snuck through the gate somehow.

[01:01:31] Josh: yeah. And again, in retrospect it was silly of me to be surprised, but I was surprised how much some people hated it, because to me, what the last gen I was doing was really. Like returning to first principles, like really getting into the guts the themes and the ideas and the questions that were really the animating forces of those original films on the prequal films, to really say something, we're saying right.

[01:01:54] Jeff: And ask the question about the character's. Like, where would it, first of all, keep in mind, Ryan Johnson did not put Luke Skywalker on a rock in the middle of nowhere, having run away from all, you know, making him a failed Jedi master.

[01:02:05] Josh: no, he did not do that. No.

[01:02:07] Jeff: inherited that, that wasn't his idea. So his job became okay, well, if Luke is out in this middle of nowhere, because he gave up after failing Colleran

[01:02:16] Josh: Why would he do that? How

[01:02:17] would, how

[01:02:18] would,

[01:02:18] Jeff: is he now? How does it

[01:02:20] exactly right. And, and, and across the board, I think what, what Ryan Johnson did was really kind of focused on like, are these characters? how have they gotten where they are? You know, what are they thinking based on what we know about them from the original trilogy,

[01:02:36] Josh: Yeah,

[01:02:37] Jeff: of being a mentor to PO Damron is perfectly

[01:02:40] Josh: it's great.

[01:02:41] Jeff: character observation for, for

[01:02:44] what she would do.

[01:02:45] And her seeing him as, as you know, a young Han ish

[01:02:49] Josh: yeah, no, totally.

[01:02:50] Jeff: I think Luke is exactly the, like people want, I feel like the people that push back want the Luke that showed up at the end of Mandalorian season two or whatever it was right. he just walks in with a lightsaber, cuts everything in half and is just like this bad-ass right.

[01:03:07] And I do think, you know, there's probably a side to Luke's character that was that, especially before establishing that, you know, he got all of his students killed, um, w with Kylo Ren, like, uh, you know, he got cocky, but he was also whiny and insecure. And I think the

[01:03:26] Josh: Yeah.

[01:03:27] Jeff: back against TLJ Luke are deliberately forgetting the whole lake.

[01:03:31] You know, why aren't we still moving towards it, Luke? know that, but I was going into dashi station to pick up some power converters look like that was Luke two Luke rushing in Tibet to cloud city was

[01:03:43] Luke to.

[01:03:44] Josh: Exactly There also, they're also forgetting that, he made mistakes , and had his own weaknesses and not to make those into a last jet, I, uh, it looks like a Walker episode, but, but, um, you know, there was, there was just something about his depiction in that movie that really resonated with me personally.

[01:04:01] It really rang true. And I think that the people who reacted negatively, I think, um, I can't really separate it out from the reactionary politics of the time that, you know, we're living in. I think it was, I think on some level it's, it's sort of, you are destroying this wholesome, like imagined, past that, , we are yearning for because everything is so uncertain.

[01:04:29] And it's just kinda like, I mean, don't know what to tell you, man, like, what happens in this movie it's so much more satisfying and so much more interesting to me , than just seeing, you know, Luke like blowing up, start a story is with the force and mowing

[01:04:43] Jeff: Yeah, I got to admit, I, I came into this with a little bit of, uh, My hackles up because, I couldn't find a copy of, the director and the Jedi. So I had to scour the internet for clips, but a lot of the clips are buried in like Reddit threads

[01:04:57] Josh: Yeah.

[01:04:58] Jeff: all of the old, like, You know, in the moment reactionary as I'm going to, how Catherine Kennedy and Ryan Johnson are ruining star wars for everyone forever, blah, blah, blah.

[01:05:07] Um,

[01:05:08] Bracey: primed, you came primed for

[01:05:10] Jeff: it was,

[01:05:12] it's so tough for me because to hear someone say, you know, that's not Luke

[01:05:16] That's exactly Luke. Like that's, that's there's no, if you're Ryan Johnson and you get stuck with Luke in the middle of nowhere, that's the only Luke

[01:05:24] that can possibly exist.

[01:05:26] Bracey: but tying it back to the, uh, to the behind the scenes documentary, I think what's telling, and also kind of foreshadowed that this was going to happen is I love, how open that they were about mark Hamill, being like

[01:05:39] Jeff: Yeah,

[01:05:40] Bracey: isn't Luke from his perspective. And he's like, yeah, I just, you know, they just rent, rent the character to me, but like, he disagreed with this take on Luke, which I think fascinating, but also.

[01:05:56] I feel like it paints what happened with what Johnson was saying with maybe potentially a darker, uh, a darker tone, than, uh, than I had actually that documentary the first time that I saw it, because I forgot that I'd seen it. I had like visited Josh in LA And uh,

[01:06:13] I, I think, I feel like

[01:06:14] Josh: you have to watch this.

[01:06:16] Bracey: got to watch this and I think

[01:06:17] we fell asleep and I was like, drunk, falling asleep to this in the

[01:06:21] Josh: Yeah, we got drunk and I was like, we have to watch this. We have to watch this.

[01:06:25] Sorry.

[01:06:26] Bracey: but, Ryan at the table read, or, or at some production meeting being like got all these Russian accounts are saying. Uh, I was saying that like, they don't don't kill hooks. Right. And while that might have at the time been kind of a throwaway thing, I think it was actually showing was that there was this force that was going to take any negative opportunity and use it against them.

[01:06:53] And I feel like the thing that I also praise that they did having mark Hamill be openly upset about that. I feel like it was this opportunity to seize on that and build up this like echo chamber of negativity against this perspective that took it beyond even what the fan impact was. And in some ways actually shaped fan impact, which I mean

[01:07:19] that that's kind of my feeling more and

[01:07:20] more.

[01:07:20] Jeff: a lot of those quotes get taken out of context though, because I, I, uh, I know at least in some of the stuff that gets brought back up mark is, is specifically,

[01:07:31] Josh: He loves Ryan Johnson.

[01:07:32] Jeff: to the fact that Luke dies. He didn't want to look to die. Right. Which I can understand, like, you wouldn't want your character to get killed off.

[01:07:40] Bracey: throwing and throwing away the lightsaber, it

[01:07:42] sounded like.

[01:07:43] Jeff: there's, there, there there's different aspect of it, depending on the different quote, because mark, wasn't just blanket talking about the entire character arc and the entire film

[01:07:52] Josh: Yeah.

[01:07:52] Jeff: with every single line that gets brought up. Sometimes it's just talking about something more specific,

[01:07:57] but it gets lumpy.

[01:07:58] Josh: read something. Um, yesterday I'm actually currently reading, secrets of the force, which is an unauthorized oral history star wars by mark Altman and Edward Gross.

[01:08:09] Jeff: Nice setting, good setting job

[01:08:10] Josh: thank you. I appreciate that. But, um, I just read, you know, mark Hamill while he wasn't necessarily thrilled or on board immediately with, where Luke was going.

[01:08:22] He had nothing but admiration and respect for Ryan Johnson. He was like, you know, this is a real filmmaker who, he's the real deal. and if he wants me to be in a movie, like I will like, I'm there.

[01:08:32] Jeff: Kerry to carry fucking loved him,

[01:08:34] Josh: yeah,

[01:08:35] yeah.

[01:08:35] yeah. So,

[01:08:36] Jeff: counts for something.

[01:08:38] Josh: moving towards the end here.

[01:08:39] One thing I kind of lament is because of the Disney of it all, like I mean, there were certain things I don't think we're ever gonna know from a behind the scenes standpoint. Like I'm dying to know, why Colin, Trevor left. I'm dying to know why the directors of solo were, replaced.

[01:08:57] Like not because of the gossip of it all. Like, I'm just so curious. I want to know what the process was and what the thinking was. I just want to know from a creative standpoint, was going on and what, uh,

[01:09:08] you know, the different

[01:09:09] Jeff: star wars, ACE, Ventura. And I was like, yeah, it's good. They're gone.

[01:09:14] But I mean, by that note, I think we dodged, we dodged a bullet with, uh, the, the SQL trilogy also from, you know, George's vision where he wanted to go into like. the medical Orien micro verse and all of that,

[01:09:27] Josh: No, but something he also wanted to get into, which I think is really interesting was, the prequel trilogy is about the, fall of a democracy to fascism. the middle trilogy is, the fight to overthrow an empire and, read the galaxy of tyranny.

[01:09:41] And the third trilogy would have been about the criminal elements that fill the power vacuum and the corporate elements that,

[01:09:48] Feel, the power vacuum,

[01:09:50] Jeff: Which

[01:09:50] again, only Ryan Johnson touched on.

[01:09:51] Josh: Yeah. Right, right. but something I just read, I think yesterday was, one of the things he wanted to use with the middle Florian's was corporations were going to be trying to manipulate the middle Florian's to make for sensitive people like

[01:10:07] for profit,

[01:10:08] um,

[01:10:10] uh,

[01:10:10] which like,

[01:10:11] Jeff: but yeah, it makes sense.

[01:10:12] Josh: well, the Phantom menace and like the destruction of the droids at the end, by destroying the one ship is a little independence day.

[01:10:17] So, I mean,

[01:10:19] Jeff: Yeah.

[01:10:19] Josh: you know, you get

[01:10:20] Bracey: You get what you get and you don't get upset.

[01:10:22] Jeff: Talking about mark Hamill and Ryan Johnson, one last one last little tidbit. I want to add the other thing that I think has missed. Is the context of how mark talks about Luke

[01:10:31] and I have, I have a personal story to share to kind of help illustrate that. So I was at New York comic con and a friend of mine was doing PR for Hamilton who was there at the convention. So I got a chance to meet them kind of behind the scenes, whatever. Now I have a Wampa puppet that I had built, um, that I have used in a few YouTube videos or whatever.

[01:10:52] It's a very expensive puppet built with real for, by a Henson studio guy. And I love it. Um, and I was very proud of it. So I brought it with me and I showed it to mark. Um, and he went crazy over it and started just launching into stories and the story that he told me, and it was, he just went on for like,

[01:11:13] 20, 30 minutes.

[01:11:15] But the story that he told me had to do with the way that they shot, that Wampa sequence in empire strikes back. And the fact that when, for his part. They filmed him standing there. They filmed him swinging his lightsaber and running out of the cave and only afterwards and editing with other, You know, second unit shots that get combined with it.

[01:11:38] That mark was not on set for. Do you have like the arm getting cut off and whatnot and, and mark was very emphatic about how you felt like, you know, I wouldn't cut his arm off. It's not a very Jedi thing to do. you know, he's just like, he's like a, Barry's like a hungry animal, you know, I wouldn't hurt him.

[01:11:58] I just, you know, do whatever I needed to do to get away. but I wouldn't fault him. He's not evil, you know? And he's, it's just, it's part of that, that passion and kind of overthinking that has about this character and his, and being very vocal about it because he'd been talking about the character for literally decades that he sees a puppet.

[01:12:18] He goes into a 20 minute rant about

[01:12:21] Josh: Luke would never do that.

[01:12:22] Jeff: would never do that and cut the arm of a Wompa and he talks like that about the

[01:12:26] character.

[01:12:27] Of course he did it when they were, were talking about the last Jedi,

[01:12:32] Bracey: I, I really appreciate that context. That's fascinating to hear that perspective.

[01:12:37] Josh: what I also think is really a Testament to, mark Hamill, I love the director and the Jedi for not shying away from this for actually leaning into it. We see, these, discussions between, Ryan Johnson and mark Hamill on set when they were rehearsing at his house and like all that stuff.

[01:12:53] And I love that we got this, little window into , once again, like with the beginning, they're not shying away from the controversial aspects. , they're really explaining why this is the way that it is and why and where it's coming from, which I really appreciate it. And I also appreciated that,

[01:13:09] it wasn't a puff piece. It wasn't a standard EPK. Like it was no, like we're going to talk about this. Here's how the actor felt. He disagreed. Here's what their process was. I mean, like we said, I loved the movie, but seeing that documentary, I was also not expecting same way that I wasn't expecting to get a star wars movie, like the last Jedi.

[01:13:27] I also wasn't expecting to get another behind the scenes that was as Frank

[01:13:32] Jeff: Yeah. Okay.

[01:13:33] Josh: the making of it. And, , uh, the release, like a three hour, I think it's pushing three hours, a documentary, about the whole culmination of the Skywalker saga and about making rise of Skywalker.

[01:13:46] that's very. Cool because they have access to the Lucasfilm archives and there's a lot of like newly scanned, film from the making of the original trilogy from all three movies. And like, it's really cool to see all these behind the scenes moments that you didn't know existed But it's disappointing because they don't get into the substance of like, why, why it was the way that it was.

[01:14:09] And , after having gotten that glimpse into the process that frankness, from the director and the Jedi, I really got, more of a sense of like, okay, like I'm watching a corporate PR like everything's happy and smiles and like, Hey, isn't it cool how we shot this with this rig in the desert and like, and look at all the masks we made and look at all this stuff and look at all the time we spent, which is cool, but I was a little bit like, I wanna see the process, like I wanna know, I wanna hear why you did what you did.

[01:14:41] Back in the day, like just seeing the models and seeing the footage of the stop motion stuff and seeing them blowing up a model of an X one, like that was all I needed to be like, what is this?

[01:14:51] I will watch this on loop for the rest of my life. And now it's like, I really need you to talk about the process. I really want to know everything. , I want to know where your head was at. I wanna know why you're making these decisions. I want to know why you're doing what you're doing.

[01:15:04] Jeff: I think, I think, we get some of that. Have you seen the parvo direct, uh, the parvo documentary, the, the quote unquote lost empire

[01:15:12] Josh: Yes.

[01:15:12] Jeff: I think we get some of that in that one.

[01:15:15] Josh: Yeah, no, no, we definitely do

[01:15:16] Jeff: interplay between Kershon and Lucas and, you

[01:15:20] know, not always just when they were getting along,

[01:15:23] Josh: And I think that's also kind of part of the reason why it's, it's a lost, ,

[01:15:27] documentary. I'm specifically talking about, the behind the scenes stuff of, the Disney movies, the new movies, I don't know that we're ever going to get into that kind of nitty gritty.

[01:15:38] And if we do, it'll be years later when somebody writes a memoir, you know what I mean?

[01:15:42] Bracey: It's so polished. It's so produced the behind the

[01:15:46] scenes thing. It's like

[01:15:47] clearly

[01:15:48] marketing.

[01:15:49] Jeff: the Jedi, we were just

[01:15:50] talking about it, that they

[01:15:50] produced.

[01:15:51] Josh: but no, but that was, I believe it was an independent, , production that, , got the permission , to film the whole process. Because when they released that, it had a premiere at a film festival. Like it wasn't something they released to coincide with the release of the movie,

[01:16:08] Jeff: here's something here's something to think about though. ,

[01:16:10] behind the scenes material, making of material promotional material in general. Arguably has to be made either with a specific audience in mind or in different ways for different audiences. , even it just as much as , the main material that, you know, the films or the TV shows itself, because one of the things that comes up in the conversation we're having is we all want different things out of our, behind

[01:16:41] the scenes stuff. Like we all expect different things from our BTS stuff. And the, the reason for releasing it, which is almost a hundred percent promotional and marketing related, , has its own goals. You know? So I think there's, there's going to be slick, mainstream type making of stuff that will always exist. And there's going to be, you know, the expos, a style, like what really happened on the second.

[01:17:08] Type material that comes out of these things and, and everything

[01:17:12] in between,

[01:17:12] Bracey: I want the Lord of the rings version. I want like that. In-depth like just every part of the process kind of do what Josh was talking about. not just like, Hey, look at the actors having fun, but I really want to dig into, , this is the cracks people that are behind this part of, the set and the props.

[01:17:33] But then you also have, here are the computer visionaries that are actually putting together these different programs that like simulate water or simulate crowds, simulate physics. And then here are these freaking crazy masterminds who were like previous stuff to put all this stuff together and just show you how it will look or possibly work.

[01:17:54] And that, like now, now we're going inside VR and we're like showing all these things together and how we can put our camera. Like, to me, that is more and more becoming more interesting to me than the actual product that comes out of, out of,

[01:18:10] the,

[01:18:11] Jeff: though, do you think it's, it's interesting to a broad enough audience to justify putting it out there? Or do you think it's just going to always be kind of a neat.

[01:18:19] Bracey: Absolutely as we move towards people get all right. So obviously we're getting saturated with content at these days, right? Like, like everybody's fighting for everyone's attention. , I think we're getting to this point where a lot of people who receive , their content are going to start asking for more from it.

[01:18:37] I think part of a lot of the disconnect and things that we're having right now is that people aren't getting exactly what they want. but I think that there is going to be a large faction of people who mature beyond this. Just give me what I want face. and I think those people are going to actually long for, exciting, entertaining content that actually gives them something beyond just the content.

[01:19:00] And I feel like that behind the scenes stuff, like the more nitty gritty niche stuff is going to actually start to appeal to a lot more.

[01:19:09] Jeff: And there's the content. Generates more.

[01:19:13] content. And what I mean by that is one of my favorite videos on the entire internet is this girl who didn't know she was being filmed, watching the end of rogue one just turning into a sobbing mess when the 10 of four takes off out of this ship. Me watching her be so very visible and present with her emotions as Darth Vader's walking through the hallway, cutting everyone in half, and then the reveal of princess Leia and all that like that, like she's crying and I'm crying with her.

[01:19:49] Josh: yeah.

[01:19:50] Jeff: So you have this extra layer, which the studios don't obviously control of, of sustaining that thirst that need from the audience. Content that generates other concepts,

[01:20:04] Josh: Yeah.

[01:20:04] , think because of the media ecosystem that we live in, like as much content as you can possibly put out, absolutely think that there's an audience for every morsel of behind the scenes footage.

[01:20:15] , like it will be used on purpose something. I definitely think that,

[01:20:19] Jeff: even if it's not appreciated at the time of.

[01:20:21] Josh: Yeah, right, exactly. Exactly.

[01:20:23] there are just, two things I want to mention really quick, JW Rinzler or, , Jonathan Rinzler who wrote, the making of episode three.

[01:20:29] And then he went back and did the making of star wars making the empire strikes back and making a fraternity. The Jedi, those are must reads for anyone who's even little bit curious about, , the making of those movies. And sadly Jonathan Rinzler, passed away either within the last year or the last, two years, very young, but those books are so insightful.

[01:20:47] Like you get, the conversation where Han and Irvin Kershner, came up with. I love

[01:20:53] Jeff: Yeah.

[01:20:53] Josh: know. And you can hear, the the audio clip, because someone had miked them for some other behind the scenes thing. And so you literally can hear and read the process of them arriving at, I don't think Han would say, I love you and like that whole thing.

[01:21:09] And it's just amazing. so I would just, , be remiss if I didn't, mentioned Jonathan Rinzler a podcast about the behind the scenes material, because I think that those are, definitely on the, reading list for this course. , the other thing I just want to touch on quickly.

[01:21:22] I love behind the scenes of the mandate of stuff that we're getting on Disney plus, like, when I saw the volume stage for the first time and how they were achieving all this stuff. And when I saw , all this new technology that they were employing to recreate practically using virtual technology to recreate something like practical, like I was like, this is blowing my mind.

[01:21:43] And I love that. , they obviously do recognize that there's an audience for people that want to know how this has done. And then after the last season, they did a whole episode about how they brought Luke Skywalker back. And I really appreciate that. They, know that there's an audience for this and it will still continue.

[01:22:00] And I just love that. At this age, I'm still like, oh man, there's a new episode of the, behind the scenes of star wars. , going to stop what I'm doing. I'm going to watch it immediately and just, have my jaw drop on the floor by seeing how they're making this magic happen,

[01:22:13] Bracey: I've got two responses to this I have a new appreciation now, going into the tech industry, going into VR. Um, I really love that. I got. This like AR projection wall and even talk to you about it to it becoming like the big, the big must do and me trying to be like, Josh, you got to get in on this.

[01:22:33] This is going to be huge. And it's like, all right. Yeah, cool. This will be a thing. And then it's, it blows up before, before we can even get our hands around it. , but what I've seen now is another, another reason why behind the scenes is actually more important in a way that I couldn't have appreciated back in the day is because, they're actually calling cards and you'll see that.

[01:22:56] , Tesla is doing this and, , Facebook is doing this with, or Metta, sorry, but they're doing behind the scenes thing to show that they are leading the industry. So they entice more people who are looking to be at the head of the frontier to come work for them, which is something that I never appreciated about behind the scenes stuff before that it's not, it's not for my entertainment or that I get to see the window all the time, the other, and it's not just for marketing.

[01:23:23] It's also just like straight up recruitment. It's like

[01:23:26] Jeff: It's a

[01:23:27] Bracey: up.

[01:23:27] Jeff: great recruiting tool.

[01:23:28] Bracey: in the doors.

[01:23:29] Jeff: It's a great recruiting tool. And, and, and it's been that way for a really long time. I mean, I can like it at more specifically to the horror world and the horror makeup effects, community where you had guys like Tom Savini and Rick baker in the eighties who like, of came out of nowhere and were like you know, everyone's minds away.

[01:23:49] Like those guys in the magazines or whatever. Like the reason that guys like Greg Nicotero and almost everyone else in the industry now started that career because the behind the scenes stuff. You know, seeing on how those effects were done and playing with the makeup kits and the prosthetics and mask making and all those techniques inspired all those guys to go.

[01:24:16] I want to do that. And they're the reason that we still have a practical makeup effects,

[01:24:20] Josh: Yeah,

[01:24:21] Jeff: in, in Hollywood.

[01:24:22] Josh: no. And even like, Doug Chang and, and John Knoll, who, who it's interesting are now like the, the elder statesman of, Lucasfilm and ILM. , Like, John Knoll, he looked up ILM in the phone book, when his dad was on a business trip to San Francisco and he asked if they, had like a tour or something that he could go on and the guy on the phone was like, well, no, but like, if, if you just, if you come, like we'll show you around

[01:24:45] Bracey: awesome.

[01:24:47] That's awesome.

[01:24:48] Josh: and like, and like so many stories like that, I don't think they realized the recruitment, tool that they were making. And I think now they

[01:24:55] do.

[01:24:56] Bracey: then.

[01:24:56] Josh: Yeah.

[01:24:57] Bracey: they absolutely do.

[01:24:58] The future of behind the scenes, , where all this is heading, especially as you just kind of spoke about how, we were getting a look into how virtual production is made.

[01:25:10] Well, now that a lot of. R P the process is being made in, , an interactive and these digital files uh, we're gonna start to step into, because I know people like me are going to want to be able to just step into the previous situation, get an opportunity to like, try my hand at shaping the scene, the way that I wanted to shape the scene, seeing how they did it, seeing, uh, their files, like getting access and behind the scenes is actually going to probably be a lot more interactive than

[01:25:42] it was

[01:25:43] Josh: well, there was something they released for rogue one actually, , on the, set of , the Jetta street, with all of the stormtroopers, like, you know, there's like the tanks that comes through and like, they had, like a VR camera that they just sort of hat on the side and they've released, a VR video where you know, if you had like a headset, you would look around and like you were, you were on the set that day

[01:26:04] I know that's not exactly what you're talking about.

[01:26:06] Bracey: right in the same direction. That's

[01:26:08] Josh: yeah.

[01:26:08] Bracey: That's, that's exactly the same, feeling or vibe that I feel like we're, we're leaning towards. Cause you just get to be that fly on the wall that I had always wanted to be when I was a kid.

[01:26:18] Josh: Yeah.

[01:26:19] Bracey: here we are full circle.

[01:26:20] Josh: Exactly,

[01:26:21] Jeff: I think eventually a lot of our entertainment is going to be interactive, but I think in the term, you can't play the last of us and not go, wow. That's like the future of movies. anyway, uh, I, I think of the nearer term, interactive promotional materials, interactive, BTS materials, interactive development materials, interactive, world introduction, right.

[01:26:45] Especially, you know, assuming that they make new properties, and not just rehash old ones, introducing people. To the world and I kind of wished they had done it with light and maybe they did. and I didn't know about it, but you know, like player one would have been a perfect opportunity, you know, like, uh, here's here, put your headset on, walk around the stacks.

[01:27:07] The movie comes out in two weeks, you know,

[01:27:10] Josh: Sure. Yeah.

[01:27:11] Jeff: I, I think, I think you'll get, a lot more of that. Uh, I think it was mostly limited by the technology adoption right now, as opposed to, I desire to do it.

[01:27:24] Bracey: And file sizes and, rights and not wanting anything to leak too soon. Like there's, there's, there's a fair amount of reasons. Uh, justifiable reasons that they don't let that stuff out yet, but pretty soon it's going to be more cost-effective for them to just let people access that stuff.

[01:27:40] Then make new stuff.

[01:27:42] Josh: That's. I mean, that's interesting. That's that's, um, whole new world, whole new world guys.

[01:27:48] I don't know about you as it was a lot of fun. I really enjoyed this conversation. It's not a conversation you can have with just anybody.

[01:27:53] Jeff: I think that's probably true. I think

[01:27:55] Josh: Yeah.

[01:27:55] Jeff: of people that have no idea, you know, who filled tip it is.

[01:27:59] Um,

[01:28:00] Josh: God. Phil Tippett. Yeah.

[01:28:02] Jeff: offer

[01:28:02] Josh: Yeah.

[01:28:03] Bracey: I'm surprised that we went through the entire conversation without mentioning Phil Tippett or Frank Oz, because

[01:28:08] Josh: Or Frank Oz

[01:28:09] Bracey: get featured future. I mean, they're there, that's where I learned their names

[01:28:14] Josh: right

[01:28:15] Bracey: the scenes,

[01:28:15] Josh: now,

[01:28:16] Bracey: uh,

[01:28:16] Jeff: and,

[01:28:17] Josh: or Richard endless

[01:28:18] Jeff: I almost

[01:28:19] Josh: Ken Ralston.

[01:28:20] Jeff: specifically during the conversation on the last Jedi, because, for all of the other moments and it's willingness to, to be open and upfront about some of the dirtier bits of making that film, like also is, is packed full of small highlights, like when mark and Frank Rhea night for the

[01:28:41] Josh: Yes. That's that's

[01:28:43] I just

[01:28:43] got goosebumps. Yeah,

[01:28:44] Jeff: work. And Frank has no idea that Mark's behind him.

[01:28:47] Josh: it's gorgeous. Yeah. I

[01:28:49] just got, I just got goosebumps.

[01:28:50] Jeff: for me,

[01:28:51] Josh: Absolutely.

[01:28:52] Oh,

[01:28:52] Jeff: that

[01:28:53] Bracey: right

[01:28:53] Josh: me too. Me too. I want to thank my guests, Jeff and Bracey.

[01:28:56] If you liked anything you heard, please go to trashconmpod.com where you can rate and review us.

[01:29:00] And we are trashcompod across all social media and, Still don't have a close, but, we're always moving backwards and forwards, backwards and forwards, basically backwards and forwards, backwards and forwards.

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