Oct. 17, 2022

STRONG Js: The Typography of Star Wars (with @StarWarsFonts AKA Justin)

STRONG Js: The Typography of Star Wars (with @StarWarsFonts AKA Justin)

Yes this is really an episode about fonts

We talk all things fonts and logos with special guest Justin, the person behind the incredible @StarWarsFonts Twitter account.

@StarWarsFonts on Twitter: https://twitter.com/starwarsfonts Justin's definitive opening crawl tutorial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQ0Nx3SBt44 Justin's Aurabesh fonts: https://twitter.com/AurekFonts/status/1435672346447155201 & https://twitter.com/AurekFonts/status/1435673583057989633

TRANSCRIPTS AT trashcompod.com

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[00:00:00] Josh: Welcome to Trash Compactor. I'm Josh. It's a plain statement of fact that every aspect of Star Wars is forever being poured over, analyzed and scrutinized. But one type of minutiae that goes often understudied is the typography of Star Wars. The actual words that appear on the screen, they are as meticulously designed as every other aspect of this design heavy universe.

[00:00:23] And I'm thrilled to be joined by an expert in Star Wars typography the person behind @StarWarsFonts on Twitter, Justin, welcome to Trash Compactor.

[00:00:32] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Hello, thank you for having me on.

[00:00:35] Josh: I actually used info, I think from the tweet pinned to the top of your account, the typographic style of the original green Lucasfilm logo and all of that.

[00:00:44] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Yeah, everything sort of in the main crawl and before.

[00:00:47] Josh: Yes exactly. I used all of that information when I was putting the graphics for Trash Compactor all together, I used all of that for like the font choice.

[00:00:55] And So thank you.

[00:00:56] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Awesome. Yeah, no, that's what I'm doing it for, really.

[00:00:59] Josh: Oh, that is what you're doing it for?

[00:01:01] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Oh yeah. I, I want people, I want people to take these fonts and like, make, like, I want them to be able to make their own Star Wars basically. I'm putting it putting back in the hands of the fans.

[00:01:11] Josh: I like it. I, no, no, I like it. The, um, well that actually, gets into a couple of questions. I was gonna ask you a little bit later, but, why not get into it now? Like, um, what was, the impetus behind creating Star Wars Fonts? So it's primarily just, uh, Twitter account?

[00:01:27] right?

[00:01:27] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Is just the Twitter right now. I, I do have a YouTube as well. And on there, um, I have my, my, yeah,

[00:01:33] I know. Uh, I, when I, when I made my, uh, the opening crawl tutorial, it took me weeks and weeks actually took me maybe over a year to plan it. And then when I finally got down to it, it took me weeks. And then just days and days just to record the, uh, voiceover for it, because I just, I couldn't get a normal rhythm going on.

[00:01:54] um, basically talking to nobody and being worried that I would be eventually talking to nobody with it.

[00:02:00] Josh: I understand. Well, that actually was something I was gonna ask you about later on, but, um, so for anyone , who didn't, picked that up, Justin has created, I don't think it's controversial to say the definitive Star Wars opening crawl tutorial.

[00:02:15] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): I, I

[00:02:16] hope so.

[00:02:17] Josh: I'll have a link in the show notes for anyone

[00:02:19] who's curious to check it out, but like, I think it's pretty clear. And this is coming from someone , who was trying to make Star Wars fan films, like back in 1999, 2000. So I'm not wholly unfamiliar with trying to scrutinize the specific details of the, the angle and speed and the, subtleties and the typography.

[00:02:36] But I mean, this is the most comprehensive, I think, correct. , and accurate, way to create your own authentic Star Wars, opening, crawl. I don't think I don't think you could do any better.

[00:02:48] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): I I'm still gonna try though.

[00:02:50] Josh: well

[00:02:51] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): I wanna keep, I wanna keep improving on it over and over and over.

[00:02:55] Josh: I mean, if you say so I think it's pretty, I think it's pretty perfect, but, um, so lemme go back a little bit. Are you a designer by trade or is this just a personal obsession. And is it just Star Wars or typography in general?

[00:03:07] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Uh, so I am a designer, um, professionally, I'm a freelance right now. Um, but you know, I've, I went to school for it. I got my degree in graphic design and uh, video digital video. Um, and so, yeah, it's what I sort of trained to do. Uh, but like I never really did a whole lot of like typography when I was in school, but I have always been obsessed with that, um, element of design.

[00:03:32] Uh, I just, something about fonts, I just love so much. Um, there, there it's something that you can like identify and collect and see like subtleties of end. Like it's something that has always gotten me. Connected to like movies and bands and TV shows that I can identify some part of it. Um, that's immediately obvious for me, I guess, is, is one of the reasons that I like type so much.

[00:03:59] Um, and so obviously Star Wars has some iconic type, uh, at the beginning of it. So it, it seems kind of an obvious choice because I love Star Wars so much, um, to take these two things and, and put 'em together.

[00:04:13] Josh: No, that makes total sense. That's actually really fascinating that that's like, something that you kind of latch onto as your way of of connecting with something, cuz like you identify the typeface. Um, can I ask you a question you may or may not know the answer to when, did we start saying font instead of of typeface, is that like a computer thing?

[00:04:35] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): probably.

[00:04:35] Josh: I've always

[00:04:36] wondered that, but I've never actually looked it up,

[00:04:38] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): I, I guess technically the typeface is sort of like the design and like the family of the, of the fonts or whatever. And then the font is the one specific style of it, but I just use typeface and font interchangeably.

[00:04:52] Josh: No.

[00:04:53] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): like, it's just, it's it's a lot easier for me.

[00:04:56] Josh: No same. I think, that anyone who may have, been, pedantic about that particular distinction once upon a time is probably no longer with us. Um, So you alluded to the very iconic fonts or typefaces. Okay. So now I'm gonna be self-conscious about what I

[00:05:12] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): oh, just go ahead and say fonts. I'm Star Wars fonts, not Star Wars type

[00:05:15] faces.

[00:05:16] Josh: Okay. Fair, fair, fair. Um, you referred to the beginning of Star Wars. It opens with fonts, with words, with text,

[00:05:24] so famously,

[00:05:25] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Yeah.

[00:05:26] Josh: And setting aside the logo itself, which I want to, talk about separately. Like, what is it about the fonts that, are so distinctive to Star Wars that like really catches your eye?

[00:05:39] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): I mean, they're, they're obviously, uh, large and yellow , which is something that'll really get you. Like that's, it's like how they, they used to say that school buses are yellow because they catch the eye like faster or whatever. Like, so obviously the, the type kind of does the same thing there.

[00:05:53] Um, but. Like, I guess the fact that it's sort of written out and I know that it's sort of like, based on the, the old, like flash Gordon, serial opening, crawls, and things like that. But like, I guess you can kind of see them as like, there it's like a news reel sort of thing. Like you have like this newspaper, you have like a big headline at the top, then you have like the information that goes underneath it.

[00:06:16] And, uh, like to me, it was sort of an interesting, different way of starting a movie than like opening credits. Because especially back in, you know, even before, like I've heard that George Lucas changed the rules of movie making by not having a full opening credits with like, you know, everyone who worked on the movie.

[00:06:37] Josh: I mean, it's certainly a very bold way of opening a movie, but even aside from the crawl itself, like, I'm still, pretty attached to the old green Lucas film Limited logo from those original movies.

[00:06:51] And I, I love that, you include the comparisons of those,

[00:06:54] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Yeah. I mean, they're, as far as I'm concerned, they're part of the movie.

[00:06:57] Josh: Yes!

[00:06:58] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Especially, and it wouldn't, I feel like it, it's not as important with like the prequels and the sequels, because it's the same logo every time. Like there's no variation except for, you know, they used to have the one that like flashed green and then became gold.

[00:07:10] And then the new one is just silver and, you know, the light comes across or whatever, but like in the old ones, for each of the three movies, it was a different, you know, they, they used a different typeface for it, which I thought was really cool because it, it just, it kind of reminds you of like how scrappy these movies really were.

[00:07:27] Like, even something that they could have reused, like a piece of film that they could have reused. They were just like, no, we'll just, we'll just set it again. And we'll, you know, it's like a brand new, it's a brand new production, you know, brand new day, whatever, like, we're, we're just gonna reset Lucasfilm limited in some new green texts that we have and we'll use whatever font is laying around.

[00:07:46] And I think I just, there's something really special about that to.

[00:07:49] Josh: Well, that's actually something else that I wanted to ask you. You know, I was talking with a friend of mine the other day. and this is just an example of like you used to be able to like, see the human fingerprints. I mean that in like a, mostly figurative way, I mean, sometimes it is a literal way, but like, you can see that it's like, not perfect. Like clearly the intent here was to recreate the exact same thing, but no, they redid it. It was probably not the same guy. And they probably, had access to a different, I don't even know what you call it. Not like an iron on, but like a, peel on?

[00:08:24] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Yeah. Yeah. Like the, those like set things where you like scratch 'em onto. Yeah.

[00:08:29] Josh: Yeah. So probably had like a slight variation one and they shot it with like a different camera on a different day and it

[00:08:36] just looks different.

[00:08:37] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): It just

[00:08:37] looks different.

[00:08:37] Josh: it just looks different. whereas now, you know, you open up the old project file from the last one and you copy paste into the new one and it looks exactly the same.

[00:08:46] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Yeah.

[00:08:46] Josh: and I'm wondering from a design perspective, especially from someone who has scrutinized those logos and the crawl. to the degree that you have, do you feel, do you feel like something has been lost with that? Like that imperfection that has been completely eliminated from the design process, or are you sort of relieved , that you don't have to worry about? you know,

[00:09:13] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Um,

[00:09:13] Josh: exactly right?

[00:09:15] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): I feel like I would be more relieved, just, I mean, just from having to identify 'em over and over, you know, but like even in the prequels, which you can, you can see that they definitely did some like copy and pasting, but there's a lot of inconsistency in those too. Even though they would've been made probably in the same way.

[00:09:33] And then the same thing with the, the sequels slightly less, um, inconsistent with those, except for the changing of the title font between seven and then eight, and then back to the one they used in seven for nine.

[00:09:46] Josh: I wonder if like, that's a simple case of. J's guy did it on seven and then someone else did it on eight. And then, J's guy was back again on nine and just, he did it again. So like he, he, he did the way he did it the, the first time

[00:10:03] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): well see, I, you would think so, but I think what really happened. Um, and I think I, this is sort of my theory. I don't think anyone's ever cared about this as much as I do. Um, But I remember the earliest, the day that they announced, um, the title for episode eight, Rian Johnson posted, uh, like a picture that he took of the monitor of the crawl that someone had finally like written The Last Jedi in.

[00:10:28] And you can see that it's written, it's typed out in the exact same font as the first, uh, as episode seven used. But then by the time the movie came out, they had switched it to something else. And I think that is because, uh, in the font that they were using originally, uh, News Gothic Bold Extra Condensed, the J just sort of comes down and then ends like, it's like a very short little tale on the J.

[00:10:50] And so Jedi is a pretty important word in that crawl. Uh, and so then they, they switched it to something that looked vaguely like it, but had a much stronger J that actually like went down and then back up a little bit. And then I think. When they, when they did that, like they had to, you know, do that just so Jedi looked better in that crawl.

[00:11:07] Then when Rise of Skywalker came out, they still wanted, I assume they still wanted it to look, uh, more like The Empire Strikes Back crawl title than Return of the Jedi. So they just went back to it because they didn't have any Js. And the Rs in News Gothic have like the straight leg instead of the, or sorry, the, uh, angled leg instead of the one that sort of curves out and then comes down like in Return of the Jedi.

[00:11:30] So I think they, they did that strictly

[00:11:33] because just for the J and then they went back because they didn't need that anymore.

[00:11:37] Josh: That is a much more thorough and plausible analysis than what I said that I, totally buy. I

[00:11:44] think you're

[00:11:45] exactly right.

[00:11:45] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): I like the idea of dualing designers though. Like J's guy is like, here's our crawl and Rian's guy was like, I don't think so.

[00:11:52] Josh: No. I mean, ,that's something I'm not even saying that there's any, like, you know, knowing animosity there, it's just, it just, it's just like, here's my guy. Like here you

[00:12:01] do this. And then it's just, it's just literally, a different, person, like as, as someone who does a lot of, you know, video work like that, who gets handed projects from others and like sees it, passed around.

[00:12:11] I mean, I mean, that stuff happens. It's like, you know, this person, do it this way and, and this person does it that way. And

[00:12:18] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Everyone has their own style.

[00:12:19] yeah,

[00:12:19] Josh: yeah, most people with the exception of elite few will ever know the difference but, then there are. people with eyes and fascinations and obsessions like you and people like me, who, want the benefit of your obsession to know about these things?

[00:12:35] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Yeah, I want that full story. I want, I wanna know the whole process. Yeah.

[00:12:41] Josh: yes, exactly. That, that is something I can relate to very much. Um, I have to ask you about your obsession with the OS,

[00:12:48] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): in the, and or logo

[00:12:50] Josh: Yeah. what is this about? What is so unique or

[00:12:53] fascinating about it?

[00:12:55] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): I mean, the, the fact that they've never shown us a regular O in that logo of the four, now that we have, you know, the original one that was sort of stencil. And then the next one that had like the two tariffs going over the negative space of the O and then the next one that had the three tariffs going over the negative space of the O and then the, the most recent one that has, uh, just a totally different font entirely.

[00:13:15] Um, but I don't know, just the fact that like the O is always well, except for the newest one. Um, but in the two middle ones, the O is just a different font from the other four letters. Uh, it's just kind of an interesting choice. And I, I don't know. I just decided to make that something that I talked about a lot.

[00:13:37] don't really know why.

[00:13:38] Josh: So it's specifically that they would never just show you like A normal O like the, the absence of the O like the negative, the contrast of the O in relation to the other letters and the logo was what, like they were using for their sort of visual flare for this particular logo.

[00:13:53] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): And like, we're just trying, we're trying to figure out if maybe it has a meaning, um, cuz in the first logo that they showed the stencil one, the O was the, the rebellion logo, um, which in the show you can see like above. Yeah. And so like obviously that's a, a very standard, like if, if Andor was a, was part of the empire, it would probably be the O would be the Imperial logo, you know, like these things just fit the circle so well.

[00:14:18] But then when they changed it up to a much taller sort of font where the O wouldn't be a perfect circle or anywhere near that, they decided to just because they were using, um, for the second logo, they used a font called agency, um, which has very like sharp, not very sharp, but like sharper curves. And the O is more of like a rounded rectangle than, um, Than like an oval.

[00:14:42] Uh, but the negative space in that logo is more like a, uh, like an oval clearly from like a, like a font, like den or alternate Gothic, something with much more rounded, uh, like top and bottom. And so it is just we're, we're all just kind of wondering like what the reason is, like, why is it that the O is different and cut out, basically just leaving the negative space of like the counter of the O does it mean something unclear?

[00:15:10] Obviously the, the rebellion logo meant something in the first one. Um, it's integr integral to like who he is as a person, but like, what does this ghost O thing mean?

[00:15:21] Probably nothing.

[00:15:22] Josh: well, not necessarily like, like I find that shows like this tend to cheekily hide hints in, logos, which is, is, is what I think you're getting at.

[00:15:33] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): yeah, like the Obi-Wan Kenobi logo, the, I was the lightsaber, ,

[00:15:37] handle. Um, and then like, I, and the whole thing was sort of like worn down with like sand. And then I think even in the opening credits, like the sand kind of like blows across it and maybe even dissolves it. I can't remember exactly, but like, obviously that meant something about like the light saber being the symbol of a Jedi and like, that's something that he couldn't get rid, like get away from, even though he was trying to hide himself, like on tattoo in which is obviously Sandy and was like eroding him and whatever.

[00:16:06] So I feel like a lot of the times the logos mean something in the context and I just, we haven't figured out what this and or one

[00:16:14] Josh: No, and we may not know until we either see the rest of the season or maybe even in

[00:16:19] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): The whole show. Yeah. So three years from now, we're gonna be like, oh, that's what it was. We got finally.

[00:16:26] Josh: yeah. Which is maddeningly, plausible. But, um, so speaking of logos I'd like to talk a little bit about the logos for the original Star Wars.

[00:16:34] There's obviously the one that appears in the film itself. And then there's sort of that one that's on all of the one sheets

[00:16:41] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): the perspective

[00:16:42] logo. yeah,

[00:16:43] Josh: yeah,

[00:16:43] It's like the perspective, like triangular one where Star Wars, like sort of flares out at the

[00:16:48] bottom. why do you think they went with the one that they ultimately chose? Which I think, correct me if I'm wrong, cuz I'm not a, designer. but I do think it makes use of negative space in that it's only the outline of the words.

[00:17:02] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Yeah.

[00:17:03] Josh: considered a use of negative space or not really?

[00:17:05] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): N um,

[00:17:06] Josh: No, I guess

[00:17:07] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): not, yeah, not, not as far as I'm concerned, I would say like the negative space would be, be like between the letters, for sure. but I guess given that it's, it is like a yellow outline, but they, the letters are filled in with black.

[00:17:20] Josh: that's true so that's something I've always wondered, like, is that, was that the intention or was that just the easiest way to do it with the optical technology at the time? , because like, was there a fear because of how quickly it , moves that they would lose the, fine edge of the thing, because I really don't understand for the life of me, why it's filled in,

[00:17:42] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): I think it just looks stronger. . Like, cuz I think that once you, cuz I've seen even in official images today, like sometimes it'll just be the outline of the logo and then you'll see the stars in between the lines on the insides of the letters.

[00:17:56] And it just, I feel like it's a lot more distracting, especially because a lot of those images, they use much denser star fields, uh, which they, you know, obviously the, in the original movies like star fields, weren't that dense and if they were, they weren't all that bright. Um, but yeah, I think it's, they, they kept it filled in with black.

[00:18:15] It might have been a little bit easier just because it would've been something physical that they would've been filming. And so maybe like having to cut it out and then cut it out again on the inside. Like they would much more likely they'd be a lot more likely to like, tear the very small outlines that remained.

[00:18:31] So maybe it might have been a technical thing, but I do think that it creates a stronger image by having those letters filled in. Uh, so you don't see the stars in between you see only around the logo.

[00:18:44] Josh: No, no, that does make sense. Like, I don't know if it's for the sequel trailers, but I definitely have seen the logo where you can see the star field through the outline and you're right. There's just something about it.

[00:18:56] That's not quite, it's not quite as strong. It is

[00:19:00] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Yeah. Our. Are the sequel trailers. Like, do you mind if I check real quick, I have a

[00:19:04] screenshot here. Okay. Um, let's see.

[00:19:08] No, now I don't remember where they are.

[00:19:09] I'll look it up later.

[00:19:11] Josh: okay. Well, so on that note, do you feel like, like there's something about the original trilogy, how each film had its own unique logo that, I really love that sort of the prequel trilogy, they each had sort of a uniform style for each of the three prequels that, that emphasized the episode

[00:19:31] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): The episode over the title.

[00:19:33] Josh: yeah, the, um, that was like, in the lineage of the Return of the Jedi logo, it's that it's that same sort of SIF, very sort of, um, I don't know the word for it. It just seems like, you know, very, uh, formal

[00:19:46] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Yeah, very formal and important.

[00:19:48] Josh: Yeah.

[00:19:48] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): kind of thing. Yeah.

[00:19:49] Josh: and then for the sequels, they switched it up a little with the different color of the logo.

[00:19:55] So the films, I guess have a little bit of a unique identity, but like not the same way the original ones

[00:20:00] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): I mean, very little. Yeah.

[00:20:03] Cause like the original ones, the original one's having a totally different logo for each one, especially the first one. Having like nine different logos basically. And then the second one and third one having like their own that were, I mean, even though like, I guess Return of the Jedi had Revenge of the Jedi first and it was sort of set a little bit differently.

[00:20:20] It was more like vertical in the, in the original ones, but like, they all sort of had their own visual language, I guess, even if they didn't have a set logo the entire time. Um, and I think that just goes straight back to just how like scrappy those original movies were, you know, like they were never sure that the second one was gonna be made.

[00:20:39] And then after the second one, they probably still weren't entirely sure that the third one was gonna be made. And so like, they didn't have all those materials set up to go probably. And so they were, I bet they were just so excited. They were just like, Hey, get a designer in here, create a, create a logo for this.

[00:20:54] Like we're not, we don't necessarily want to call it Star Wars. This, we want these to just be movies, kind of like how, um, I guess they abandoned this pretty quickly, but like Raiders of the lost arc was just Raiders of the lost arc. And then the second one, they were like, well, now we have to do like,

[00:21:10] because it's another Indiana Jones, we have to tell them what the series is, you

[00:21:14] Josh: right, right.

[00:21:15] Exactly.

[00:21:16] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Um, but, and that once again, like it's just like franchising obviously has changed in terms of how it's done. Um, what kind of things they pay attention to, what kind of things they're protective of. Uh, and so I think by the time the prequels came out, they were like, well, obviously we want to present these as, as the earlier ones in the series, we need to make sure that everyone knows that this is first.

[00:21:40] So the way to do that is to really emphasize episode one. This is number one, this is the first movie in the thing. Please come see it. And you'll see, you know, everyone way before. Um, but, but also it's called The Phantom Menace and it's right

[00:21:54] here. We we've written that at the bottom too.

[00:21:56] Josh: well, so what's interesting about that too, is that, you know, for the longest time, we already knew movies, as episodes one, two and three for years, before they were even made. So, so it was sort of like, leaning into the terminology that already existed.

[00:22:11] like I remember, when they made the announcement the title of episode one was The Phantom Menace. Like most people still called it Episode One.

[00:22:19] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): I think people still call it episode

[00:22:21] one to this

[00:22:23] day. Yeah.

[00:22:23] Josh: Yeah. So, I don't know if that has to do, with the design of the logo, but, the logo certainly reinforced

[00:22:31] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Yeah, that is a good point actually. Cause I, I guess I wasn't as like tuned in to sort of the rumor mill at the time in the nineties. Um, I mean, before that movie came out, I was, you know, like when, when it was first announced, I guess I would've been what, 96, 97, when they really started like talking about it, I was only like eight or nine years old.

[00:22:53] So I wasn't super plugged in, um, with that. So like it's interesting that everyone calling it episode one, knowing that a, a new Star Wars was coming out, it was a prequel. And this is gonna be episode one, because if you were remember, uh, the other ones are episodes four or five and six, and you've probably never noticed, but they are.

[00:23:12] Um, so like here comes this new one that's gonna be before. So yeah, like

[00:23:16] calling it episode one

[00:23:17] Josh: yeah, for the first one, just from like a, branding standpoint, to communicate to the general public who maybe is not paying attention to the fact that Empire Strike Back was actually was actually episode five and not, uh, the second Star Wars, it's actually the fifth Star Wars. Uh, so for the first one, it makes sense, to communicate clearly to the viewing public, what this is. And then I guess they just kind of stuck with it, cuz I mean, like, I mean, once again, like after the Phantom episode one, before we knew the name of the second one, we were all calling it episode two already.

[00:23:49] And it's interesting because between Star Wars and empire we didn't know that The Empire Strikes Back was gonna be Episode Five. Like there was just Star Wars, and this is a little, before my time I wasn't around then. But the episode four in the crawl, you know, very famously was only added for the 1979 re-release so that,

[00:24:08] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): I think it was, I think it may have been the, the 81 rerelease,

[00:24:12] Josh: I think you're actually

[00:24:13] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): I believe, I believe so. Cause I think it wasn't until after Empire came out that then they were like, oh, by the way, um, the other one was episode four. You didn't just three movies.

[00:24:23] Josh: Well, so something that I always imagined, like imagine, , you have been waiting three years to see the new Star Wars and you get your tickets for The Empire strikes back and you sit down and the lights go down and you see trailers for like, I don't know, the shining or whatever else, came out that year and then the movie starts

[00:24:40] you see the, Star Wars logo, and for a second, you're like, Are they showing the last movie, like, is this is this the right movie? you know, because like was no precedent for that. Like, like unified, house style of like, we show the Star Wars logo, it recedes into the distance and there's a crawl over a star field.

[00:24:58] Like there were some, some storyboards for Empire where the opening crawl actually happened over the ice field of Hoth.

[00:25:05] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Oh,

[00:25:06] Josh: And then after the crawl recedes. camera moves and reveals, , Luke on the Tante and that opening shot.

[00:25:13] Right? so it's just like we take for granted the degree to which that visual style was something like very intentional, like there was a decision made C 19 79, 19 80 to make these films, not that unique in terms of

[00:25:31] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Yeah. Like ha having that uniformity at the beginning, which I guess would once again, probably come from like the Flash Gordon opening crawl kind of thing. But also like, I don't imagine that every single Flash Gordon episode had their crawl over the same background. So I guess

[00:25:49] like,

[00:25:50] so it, I feel like it would've made just as much sense to have the crawl going over the ice field instead of the star field.

[00:25:57] by just being like, we are, we've set our scene. This is where it's gonna be, by the way here's, what's been going on. And now we join, you know, our story already in progress or whatever. Like it would've, it would've been just, just as fine to have it go over the, uh, the ice instead, except for the fact that then like, especially if you were sort of tilted down toward the ice, the words would be going like parallel to the ground, I guess, in, in terms of like actual 3d space

[00:26:25] beyond the

[00:26:25] Josh: true.

[00:26:26] Yeah.

[00:26:26] So

[00:26:26] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): And then, and then

[00:26:27] they would, what just be like orbiting the planet. these, like at a certain point, you gotta think about maybe like what the physical space of the words are gonna be.

[00:26:36] that's why they put it like back into space or like, nevermind. They've gotta

[00:26:39] go.

[00:26:40] Josh: yeah. Like, this is too much, I'll just do it the same way we did it last time. Um oh, but yeah, like, one of the things that I was really curious about, in the lead up to Rogue One, are the opening credits gonna look like?

[00:26:52] Like what are they gonna do?

[00:26:54] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Like, which of those elements are they gonna keep their for brand cohesion, but which ones are they gonna ditch to make you know that this is not a Skywalker saga film.

[00:27:05] Josh: Yet still Star Wars.

[00:27:06] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Yeah.

[00:27:07] Josh: Yeah. Um, which is also something that has really excited me about each of the new, so I guess now we're not really making Star Wars movies anymore. We're making Star Wars shows primarily, , but like the way that they choose to, portray themselves with the choice of fonts and how they utilize them.

[00:27:26] Like, I think Rogue One was the first, movie to have the on screen legends, like where they say like, okay, here's the name this planet. And now, okay, now we're over here at this planet and something I thought, was really interesting with Andor was that they carried over that visual style of, spelling out on screen where you are

[00:27:47] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Yeah. Like a little ex expositional shortcut

[00:27:49] Josh: Yeah, that, um, really, ties it to Rogue One, which

[00:27:52] makes sense because, you know, it's like a part of the rogue one lineage. So it makes sense that it would retain that. What I did think was actually really, crazy was that at the beginning they had, B B Y five, before the battle of Yan which is like a fan, extended universe thing that lets you know when something is happening in relation to the first Star Wars movie like we've

[00:28:17] never actually seen.

[00:28:18] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): I really, enjoyed that being there because like I get, because there, there are sort of different levels of like where something exists within a story to me. Like, and I I don't know, I don't know what this means really, but like on screen text is something that only exists for us, the audience.

[00:28:34] And so, so it makes sense to put the, put things like that in terms that we would understand cuz if, if it started and it was like, this is more LA one, this is the headquarters of the whatever. Um, and this is taking place in galactic year seven dash B something you'd be like, well, I don't know what that is.

[00:28:51] That's nothing. So obviously like it makes sense to have this term that was agreed upon years and years ago. Um, to just be like, Hey, by the way, B, B Y five. You know what that is? And if you don't know what it is, then you probably don't care about Star Wars that much, so it doesn't matter.

[00:29:09] And I think

[00:29:09] that's really neat.

[00:29:10] Josh: So, but that is interesting though, for someone who, who has never read anything about Star Wars or like read any non-filing Star Wars, like for them, the B B Y five, is essentially the same thing as like galactic year 21, 3, 4

[00:29:25] or whatever, but like, that's fine I mean, it's okay if you don't

[00:29:29] know what that means.

[00:29:30] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Cause you, I mean, all that really matters is that, you know, it takes place before rogue one and the easiest way to know that is because Andor is walking around and breathing and stuff. So, so obviously it's a prequel. Um, so it

[00:29:43] doesn't, it doesn't really matter, like when it is, but you're just like, okay, I'm keeping.

[00:29:48] The sort of timeline of rebellion straight. So I know that it's five years before the battle of Yavin. Um, and that's gonna, that's just gonna kind of give me a frame of reference that you don't necessarily need, but it's, it was just kind of nice of them to do that. If they want to give us this, this long drawn out story of Cassian.

[00:30:09] Josh: Well, something that somebody pointed out in a Twitter thread, I, I think maybe it was one of yours, but I'm not sure. Um, somebody commented that as the show goes on, that it's gonna start to feel like it's a countdown clock

[00:30:21] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Oh

[00:30:23] Josh: and it's actually, going to create sort of a tension,

[00:30:27] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): yeah,

[00:30:28] Josh: know what happens when it gets to zero.

[00:30:30] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): yeah.

[00:30:30] Oh,

[00:30:30] that's good. And plus like with, with having like a before time, you, you do get to have like five then down to four, then down to three, whereas galactic year seven, B 7, 1 8, whatever. That's just gonna keep counting up. That's nothing like, that's not, there's no tension in that.

[00:30:47] Josh: Yeah, though, though, though, a part of me wishes that they had written it five B B Y instead of, of B,

[00:30:55] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): yeah. Maybe Y five. Yeah,

[00:30:58] Josh: because like when you say it out loud, it doesn't make any sense. Uh, before battle of Haven five,

[00:31:03] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): exactly.

[00:31:04] Josh: like, five

[00:31:04] before battle of ye.

[00:31:06] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): it was, Yavin 4 actually is what you'd be saying, which was a very funny thing that I said on Twitter earlier.

[00:31:11] Josh: Oh, I just got that

[00:31:12] joke.

[00:31:12] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): you go.

[00:31:13] Josh: Sorry.

[00:31:14] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): It's funny.

[00:31:15] It's a funny. one. Um, but no, yeah, like five, five years, because like you, I guess you assume the years in the five, so it's like five before the battle of Yavin, um, but yeah, before the battle of the a mm five, like, it's just, it's a weird, it is a weird way of saying it, but because like, I guess is it, is it in, in BC and ad you do like what number and then BC, but then for ad it's ad then number

[00:31:42] is that, is that how we do it?

[00:31:43] Okay. Maybe that's how they do it too. there's like,

[00:31:47] it's five B, B Y, but then it's a, B Y seven.

[00:31:51] Josh: Yeah. I mean, like, I would say that they, that it was like just sort of an oversight, but you know that there were conversations about this.

[00:31:57] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Yeah,

[00:31:58] like definitely. And I think,

[00:32:00] Pablo Hidalgo like responded today to someone asking about that, saying that like, no, it's, it's been used both ways. You. For for years and years, this the order of the, the B, B, Y, and the number. So I guess it just, whatever, whatever they felt looked better on screen, or maybe whichever one sort of conveyed that it was a year to the people who didn't know.

[00:32:21] Josh: well, that's true. Yeah. Like that's probably ultimately what the decision came down to because like, they probably, when you see five B, B Y it's like five something it's like,

[00:32:32] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Five something. I need to know something, but if you see

[00:32:35] like B, B Y five, you can just assume.

[00:32:38] Yeah.

[00:32:39] You can just assume that B, B Y like means galactic year or something. It's like, oh, galactic year five. That's fine. That's a date. I get it fi five, B, B Y could be like five kilometers from the middle of the city or something.

[00:32:53] So they, they probably thought of it like that. They were like, what is this play? As they may have even like, Written down both of them and asked people like, what do you think these things represent? And people are like, well, that one's probably a year and that one's probably a quantity

[00:33:04] or

[00:33:05] Josh: Yeah,

[00:33:06] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): So yeah, that's probably, that's probably how they did it.

[00:33:09] That's how, that's how I would've done it. If I had thought about it and was involved,

[00:33:14] Josh: so, but yeah, back to that original Star Wars logo, I mean, it's so iconic. Like you were saying, like the first movie had like a zillion logos, like, why do you think the one that they went with in the film?

[00:33:24] Like why that one? From a graphic design standpoint, what do you think it is about that logo?

[00:33:29] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): it's really well balanced. Um, and like for most of the logos that they had, or at least some of them, cuz they had a lot. Like prototype logos that were sort of in just like regular text. There was, um, one of the early books just had it in like VEA. Um, then they had like their ComicCon booth that had that just sort of like spindly, like angular text or whatever.

[00:33:51] And then you start getting the one, the, uh, the perspective, one, which I believe was meant to be shown at the top of the crawl and was actually gonna go out into space with it. And so that's why they wanted to have, I don't know, I don't know why they would want it to have perspective and then additional perspective or if it was supposed to be perspective on the posters, but then it was gonna actually be like in actual perspective.

[00:34:16] I don't know. I'm not entirely sure, but I think that once they changed it to be from like being in as part of the crawl and as something that comes in first and sort of flies away, they, I think they needed something that was a little wider, um, and a little bit more straight on. And so like, You know, obviously we've seen like Susie Rice's original logo with like the, the straight, um, the straight sided w and then the one with like the, the w that looks like the one that we know, but has like the point in the center instead of the flat.

[00:34:45] Yeah. Like, I think that once they got it, got to all those, uh, they probably just wanted something that fit the frame a little bit better as something like wider, because you know, these movies are filmed in such a wide aspect ratio. so they were like, well, we just need something that fills it a little bit better, and doesn't leave you with all this negative space just on the left and the right as it goes.

[00:35:03] And so I think they probably be like, when that decision was made to have it flying back into space, instead of being part of the, the perspective of the crawl, , they were just like, yeah, we just need something like balanced and wide. And that's probably just where that came from.

[00:35:16] Josh: No. And it's interesting also, because I know that there were versions of it, where it was like one line instead of star stack on top of wars.

[00:35:26] And now that you're talking about it, like the thought process, the balancing of it for the frame. And then also knowing that it'll be receding, so it'll get smaller, like it's sort of creating a shape, a size and a

[00:35:39] shape that like will fit nicely within the frame at sort of, retain a

[00:35:45] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Yeah. Very recognizable. Even as it gets smaller.

[00:35:49] And I think because of, because of the color and the fact that it's outlines, and then the fact that like, if it was all on one line, you would have just like flat top and bottom, and then you'd have just tiny little shapes on the, the left and the right with just the S's basically.

[00:36:04] But because they're stacked, you get sort of this, like, Wide hexagon kind of thing that has very recognizable sides. And then the tops are, it's just a little bit less, you know, flat space basically. And so, yeah, like as it gets smaller, it just becomes this. It's not even really words anymore. It's just a shape that you can instantly recognize in outline which so from a branding perspective, that was a very good choice

[00:36:29] to have that.

[00:36:30] Josh: Doug Chiang the concept artist said that he learned very quickly, with George Lucas at the very beginning of episode, one that the key to design was the silhouette. Like, you need to be able to recognize it, immediately and then like, know that this ship is this ship.

[00:36:47] And that ship is that ship. And like, that, same logic applies with a logo. So you mentioned, um, Susie Rice, I believe her name was who

[00:36:54] was the designer of that original logo and then was slightly modified by Joe Johnston.

[00:36:58] I think

[00:36:58] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): I think so that sounds,

[00:36:59] Josh: She said that, George Lucas's only instructions to her was that he wanted something very fascist, something. Recognizable that would rival like the AT&T logo.

[00:37:12] so as soon as you saw it, it would completely overpower you. And like when you look at that logo, that's what it does. It's like, and I can't explain why, like, I don't have the, the words or the design language, but there is

[00:37:23] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): I'm not sure if I do either, but yeah, like it, it's definitely something that, that really resonates when you see it. You're just like, oh yeah, that's the Star Wars logo. Like I know that.

[00:37:31] Josh: and you do feel those things, it's like Star Wars.

[00:37:34] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Yeah. This is

[00:37:35] it. Well, I mean, that's what happens when you see that every time you see that logo, it's accompanied with a blast of horns and you're just like, oh yes, no, I recognize that it's, that's the Star Wars logo. I, I, I know that sound anywhere. But like it's such a recognizable logo that like, I've seen people on, um, like font identifying, like there's a, there's a Reddit that I go to a lot that identify this font. Um, I don't know if you know that one, but like I saw someone asking about a font that was not related to Star Wars at all, but because the sort of visual language of the Star Wars logo was so strong, someone was like, oh, that's probably just one of those like Star Wars, font, clones. And I was like, ha ha, very, very funny.

[00:38:14] But no, that's wrong. Like, so that's how strong the Star Wars logo is that it, it makes other fonts look like the Star Wars logo, especially if they, if it's something that's like outlined in yellow, like one, once people see any text, that's just yellow outlines, they're gonna see the Star Wars logo. And I think that is just, I mean that it's, it's so strong that it just overpowered an entire look of like type.

[00:38:42] Josh: Well, actually, so that's interesting. because we were talking about how they were going to decide the look of Rogue One, the Rogue One logo in the movie is, literally Rogue One in yellow outlines and

[00:38:52] nothing more like that says, Star Wars enough, like

[00:38:56] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): yeah. You don't need a Star Wars logo. If everything you're doing except for the font. And the words is screaming. Star Wars.

[00:39:04] Josh: Yeah. Which is crazy. Like, something that I think is sort of, taken for granted is that the type faces in the movie, not just the crawl, but even like the subtitles, you would there'd be a temptation to do something like really kind of crazy looking and, and sort of, and, and sort of spacey and sort of like sci-fi with like, you know, mean like, especially in the seventies, like I don't know, I'm thinking of that, like, computer font that shows up in all those like, 1970s

[00:39:34] movies.

[00:39:34] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Westminster and data 70, the ones

[00:39:36] that, that look like

[00:39:37] that look like the bottom of a check,

[00:39:39] Josh: Yes.

[00:39:40] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): those kind. Yeah.

[00:39:41] Josh: yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Like, rather than going that way, they went with very straightforward, very clean. I don't wanna say traditional, because I think traditional at least in my mind, Would evoke more of like a serif sort of a font. So I guess for film, I don't

[00:39:57] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): like, like you're reading

[00:39:58] Josh: well, yeah.

[00:40:00] Yeah. So, but they didn't go for like the baroque sci-fi like out of this world thing. Like they kept everything very relatable and straightforward.

[00:40:09] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): and, and continuing to make it look like a serial from the 1940s, basically. Like, I think that George definitely, I think that he definitely had his idea that this was. This was not a sci-fi movie. This was like a space fairytale basically. And he was like, it's gonna look like the old flash Gordon things we're gonna have, you know, uh, just like a tall Gothic font that has just a, a very like strong drop shadow.

[00:40:35] And that is what you're gonna see. Like, I can't think of anything more inappropriate to see then, like in the middle of the cantina, Greedo comes up and says going anywhere Solo. And what you see is like that computer E font at the bottom, like

[00:40:46] as if he was like a droid or something.

[00:40:49] Josh: No. Yeah. Like, Like, I'm also a star Trek fan and I was watching, the director's edition of Star Trek, The

[00:40:55] Motion Picture, not that long ago. And there are subtitled alien languages in that film, but the subtitles are in some like, wacky, like very overdesigned space font that, like hard to read.

[00:41:07] It's like hard to, you know, it's like, I don't get it.

[00:41:10] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): yeah.

[00:41:11] Josh: It's very overdesigned but like, you know, very kind of what was thought of as appropriate for that kind of movie at that

[00:41:18] time.

[00:41:20] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): yeah,

[00:41:20] Josh: And, you know, it's funny now I think for like sci-fi or for space, I think that thinks of like, Futura or like some Helvetica variant,

[00:41:29] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): yeah. Or like Euro

[00:41:30] style or something.

[00:41:31] Josh: Yeah, right. Yeah.

[00:41:32] Yeah.

[00:41:32] Euro style is what I was thinking, um, which is really interesting that, that's the association is with those like more kind of clean, more

[00:41:41] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Yeah. Sort of geometric and industrial, I guess. Like that was sort of the way people saw like sci-fi cuz I guess if I had to guess, um, and I don't, I, I haven't read much about this cause I don't have the book that really goes into it. Um, Type Set in the Future. Have you heard of that?

[00:41:59] Josh: Oh, yes. I've heard of that. Yeah, but I

[00:42:00] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Yeah.

[00:42:01] I, I really need to get a copy.

[00:42:02] I don't know what I'm waiting for. Um, but you know, they show like the type faces in like alien and like Star Trek and like Euro style is just everywhere. So like it must have been that people saw the, saw it as like this like kind of futuristic, like geometric, but very readable and like utilitarian kind of font.

[00:42:23] And like, I guess that's where they saw those kinds of designs going in the future. Um, and the fact that it just, it, it never made its way into Star Wars really, uh, is probably for. To keep it like, like Star Wars is very much anchored to the past and not the future. I mean, it's a long time ago in galaxy, far, far away.

[00:42:45] And it's, it draws from those like 1940 serials. So like, it makes sense that they wouldn't have any of those sort of futuristic, um, and like go for those kind of design trends that like star Trek was going for at the time.

[00:42:58] Josh: Sure. Yeah, no,

[00:42:59] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): so it's a, it's a cool, like anti

[00:43:01] like anti Star Trek kind of thing.

[00:43:04] Josh: no, totally. And it's also, it's, sort of a similar mindset behind the decision behind the orchestral score. Right. So like, rather than like some Spacey wasy, like, you know,

[00:43:16] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): heavy.

[00:43:17] Josh: Thein heavy. Yeah. Synth-y, bleeps and bloops soundtrack, it was like, no, we're going very, traditional and very straightforward.

[00:43:25] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Like as if, as if to say that this movie, this movie would've been exactly the same, had it been made in the seventies or the sixties or the forties or the twenties?

[00:43:32] Josh: you know, which to some degree is, is true. Like the movie, only thing, that I think really, sets the film in a moment in time, like, most movies, without knowing beforehand, like you can see them and probably off the top of your head guess within about five years of when it was made. Like Star Wars.

[00:43:52] I think the only thing that might kind of give it away is like the hairstyles.

[00:43:55] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): I was gonna say the haircuts and the fact that everyone has mustaches. Yeah,

[00:43:59] Josh: Um, what of the shows do you think, has the most interesting or most successful like, brand identity or like, you know, logo and design? Because it is interesting. The ways that they inherit and can kind of pick and choose, as you were saying before, like what, from the Star Wars visual language they are going to keep and what they are going to get rid of. And that says something about the kind of Star Wars it is.

[00:44:26] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Uh, we've got what Mandalorian, Boba Fett, Kenobi, Andor?

[00:44:32] And, then, like Rebels and Clone Wars and,

[00:44:34] Josh: Yeah.

[00:44:35] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): and all those ones.

[00:44:37] You know, like I would say that Clone Wars for sure, went with more of like a saga look to it. Like, it starts with like every episode starts with a quote in like the iconic blue, like a long time ago text. Um, but then instead of doing like an opening crawl, like news reel kind of thing, they do like the, the.

[00:44:57] Like in the movies kind of news reel, like having the guy, like talking like this week on Choson or

[00:45:02] whatever, you know, um, which that was just as an aside, a very cool way to start an episode of, uh,

[00:45:07] a show every single time. I just, I loved that every single time.

[00:45:11] Josh: No. And it's also a very cool way to sort of evoke that same feel, but like, not just redo the same thing. And it's also for kids who can't necessarily read though, I suppose, I suppose any kid watching colo should have probably been old enough to read,

[00:45:27] but not, not, necessarily.

[00:45:29] Um, I don't know.

[00:45:30] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): But it also does also like firmly place it within like war time,

[00:45:35] instead of just like this, isn't just like a regular newspaper where you're reading about whatever, like obviously all of Star Wars is war time. That's just kind of part of the, uh, the name of it. Um, but the fact

[00:45:46] that these are like, it would just star star adventures.

[00:45:50] Josh: star adventures. Yeah.

[00:45:51] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Welcome to the Star Adventures. Um, but no, like having, having the clone wars look like sort of look and feel like it is like a news real, like every, like every day or every week or something, like when you go to the movie theater to see something, maybe you're going there to watch like a flash Gordon cereal or something, and then they like tell you like, oh, by the way, this is what's going on in the front, uh, Kenobi and Skywalker got into something else.

[00:46:17] Like it's just, I, I thought it was a very good idea. It's not, it's not typographic at all, but, um, you know, very good idea. What was the

[00:46:25] question?

[00:46:27] Josh: I'm not sure, but I like your answer

[00:46:29] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Thank you.

[00:46:29] Josh: so I've got here, uh, what's the most interesting detail or fact that you've come across in your study of Star Wars fonts. So I think you may have dropped some really interesting ones, but.

[00:46:38] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Um, I mean, one of the things was like having to discover what the, opening and crawl title font was for The Empire Strikes Back and then A New Hope when they rereleased it. Um, because like I said, like those two, the title part of the crawl is different from Return of the Jedi. It's different from the prequels, it's different from the sequels.

[00:46:57] And it was a really big mystery. That was literally the reason why I started researching like Star Wars fonts in the first place. So it's, this was the mystery at the heart of my journey on the way to making this Twitter account, , because no one seemed to know what it was. It didn't match the other, uh, any of the other fonts that was, that were used, it looked vaguely like the one in The Force Awakens, but you could tell that it was a little bit different and like whatever.

[00:47:22] And so going sort of going down that rabbit hole and finally finding the answer to that one was, I mean, that, that's my favorite thing that I've done so far.

[00:47:31] Josh: How did you find the answer?

[00:47:32] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Uh, I stumbled upon it when I don't even, I'm not even sure if I was looking for it at the time, but I found, um, I found like a table of different fonts that the American Type Founder company was like offering for headlines and right there in just like on one side of it was this font called News Gothic Extra Condensed.

[00:47:51] And I was like, well, that, that looks familiar. And it turns out the reason I couldn't find it before is because it, it had never really been digitized. It was part of The news Gothic family, but no one seemed to bring it with them when they like, would digitize it or collect it or whatever. So it just kind of got lost a little bit to time.

[00:48:08] There's one font out there, uh, called Phenix, which is sort of, and I think it's P H E N I X. Um, it was sort of like a, like a follow up to that font. But with, instead of lowercase letters, it had, , Like alternates for the cap. So they were all a lot more like rounded and just like interesting shapes. And so like, that's kind of the quote, not Phenix sorry. Well, no, cuz there's Phenix and then there's

[00:48:31] Jefferson, Jefferson Gothic. So Phenix was one of 'em Jefferson gothic is the one that is currently available. And they're, They're very similar, uh, in that way. And so like the fact that they were never digitized as a news, Gothic font means that they were lost a little bit, I would say.

[00:48:48] And so like nobody. Yeah, exactly. You can't find it. And so, and I don't think anybody well, I'm not, as far as I know, nobody really knew that that was the font that they used in the opening crawls in those early movies. And so that's, I think that's one of the reasons why the prequels used, um, the Return of the Jedi font and then why the sequels used, uh, News Gothic Bold Extra Condensed, which is different.

[00:49:10] Very similar, but a different kind of thing. And then, why people were like, well, the crawl doesn't look the same and it's like, well, yeah, but it hasn't for a while. You just didn't realize that Empire Strikes Back in A New Hope were using something else that no one seemed to really know about. And so like finding that and realizing why I couldn't find it and all that stuff was, that was a, that was an interesting, uh,

[00:49:30] Josh: that's super cool. I think that's super cool. So wait, so none of the original three films use the same font for the crawl text.

[00:49:38] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Uh, well, okay. So Star Wars, as it came out in 1977, you know, uh, it didn't have the title, didn't have

[00:49:44] the

[00:49:44] episode number or anything. Yeah. Um, and so that one, that one was just set. Just the paragraph was just set in Trade Gothic Bold. Or Trade Gothic Bold Number 2, the, the rounder one, um, and then Empire Strikes Back was using News Gothic Bold for the body, but then they had the News Gothic Extra Condensed, which that combination was then used again for the rerelease of Star Wars as A

[00:50:06] New Hope.

[00:50:07] Josh: Of A New Hope. Right.

[00:50:08] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): then by the time they got to Return to the Jedi, they switched over to, uh, Univers set 47? 49? One of those, the Light Ultra Condensed. And I think that, that they did that for the exact same reason why they switched over to Univers 59 in Last Jedi, cuz it didn't have that strong J pretty sure that was the exact same reason.

[00:50:28] They didn't learn their lesson. And then almost 30 years later they had to do it again.

[00:50:33] Josh: No, that is so, I mean, I'm sure you're right about that. Like that is, totally why, so, but that's, that is so cool. That's really fascinating. So, yeah. So because again, like at that time, they didn't realize they were gonna have to do it again.

[00:50:46] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): yeah,

[00:50:46] Josh: and if we do, it's like, well, someone ask me I'll I'll do it again.

[00:50:50] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): I'll do it again,

[00:50:50] but, and I guess they, they just didn't realize that like, you know, they picked this really nice looking like sort of big, tall headline font, and, and when they set Empire Strikes Back in it, it looked great and it comes across the screen and it takes up the entire width of the screen as it's like, you know, crawling backwards.

[00:51:06] And they were like, yeah, that looks really good. That's great. And then they were like, I guess, you know, three years later they were like, all right, the new one's called Return of the Jedi and they set it out and it's like, oh, when it goes back, it kind of looks like Return of the Iedi or something like.

[00:51:17] Josh: Well, so that's something too that I don't think like it's hard. So, so A New Hope is the only one of the, the original films that, doesn't really have its own unique logo for the

[00:51:29] subtitle.

[00:51:30] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): subtitle. Yeah.

[00:51:31] Josh: And it's like not really a great one to make one out of like A New Hope. It's like you can't really, I mean, it seems to me

[00:51:39] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): It's too many short words.

[00:51:41] And one of those words is a single letter. And so you can't put that on a line of its own, like B cuz B B can like take up a line or B small and you can put like lines on either side. But if you try to do that with like an a, it just becomes all one mash

[00:51:55] of just a shape.

[00:51:57] Josh: I think a testament to that is that like you would think in the intervening years, someone would have tried to create one, like, just for, completeness sake, but they

[00:52:07] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Yeah.

[00:52:08] Josh: because it just, it, it just doesn't work.

[00:52:11] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): I just don't think it works. I've definitely seen some versions that look, I mean, they, they look okay. Like they're oh. Pablo Hidalgo, the other day, like posted, um, a poster that actually did have, and A New Hope logo that was sort of in that sort of perspective of like the old, like the, the original perspective of Star Wars logo.

[00:52:28] Josh: Oh, well, that one might actually work because it would lend itself to that sort of perspective because it's sort of like, uh, then new is a little bigger and

[00:52:36] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): but, but, uh, and new I'm pretty sure we're on the same line.

[00:52:39] Josh: Oh, well, okay.

[00:52:41] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): that's. That was the issue. I wanna say it's a good try, but it just does not have it

[00:52:46] doesn't have the right feeling at all.

[00:52:48] Josh: no, I've never particularly liked A New Hope as a title for many reasons. And that is kind, and that is kind of one of them. And it's also just kind of like redundant, it's just sort of there out of obligation.

[00:53:00] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Yeah. Like, oh, they all have titles. This one needs one too. What if we call it? I don't know. What, what is Luke? Is he some sort of hope? Who

[00:53:08] Josh: Yeah. Yeah. What logo or font wise drives you absolutely up the wall when you see it, like, like what's an unforgivable sin in like, a logo or like, the opening credit fonts or

[00:53:21] like subtitles.

[00:53:23] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Well the, um, I mean, not, I don't, I don't like to knock anyone's work obviously, but like the, um, in the Marvel series Moon Knight,

[00:53:31] The, the end credits when everyone's like names would come up on screen the spacing and the kerning of those was just like, oh, I couldn't stand looking at it.

[00:53:39] Like, and that's, and that's like a, that's a big production. I feel like they would, they would have the, the lettering to be just like a little bit different. Like, you know, again, I don't like to knock any of these designers. They were probably way overworked and like the people making those whatever. But, but it's just even, even like the auto spacing, I feel like would've helped.

[00:53:56] I don't

[00:53:56] Josh: would've been preferable.

[00:53:57] Yeah.

[00:53:58] , something that drives me crazy is when, very often whenever an old movie or show is like, you know, rescanned and remastered for HD or ultra HD resolution. because they go, , to the original negative, they have to like recreate certain things.

[00:54:15] Especially for TV shows from like the 1980s, they have to like redo, the titles a lot of the time. And like the substitutions, sometimes that they choose, like really drive me nuts. Like, um, , whenever they use like, an aerial variant to substitute for helvetica

[00:54:32] like, I'm like, uh,

[00:54:33] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Yeah, it used to be

[00:54:34] better. I'm also, I'm

[00:54:36] getting pretty tired of Ariel.

[00:54:37] I'm gonna keep knocking on the Marvel shows, I guess, but like, I'm pretty sure the previously subtitle in, uh, She Hulk, I think that they're just using, like, I think it was in, She Hulk. I, it may have been something else that I was watching, but they're just using Arial Black, just like plain white, Arial Black.

[00:54:54] And I'm just like that you, you literally didn't do anything, but use the default font on there. Like I just, I don't think that Arial looks particularly good but that's,

[00:55:07] Josh: Yeah. For some reason, like I used to be, much more of a font snob than I am now, but yeah, that was one I remembered having this like weird sort of hatred for, , especially when it would be used when they meant to be using Helvetica. And it's just sort of like, and you're not even using the right one.

[00:55:25] It's like, come

[00:55:26] on, man.

[00:55:27] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): I think I was maybe watching a TV show. I can't remember it now, but this must have been a couple weeks ago. And I feel like I was watching a TV show that was maybe remastered. And they had, like you said, like they, they used like a different font or maybe the font just looked like it was too like crisp for the quality of the show or something.

[00:55:44] But in Star Wars terms with that is when they, when they did the, when they do the Marvel re-releases of some of the old, like Dark Horse comics, they have been like recreating some of those titles, , to like put on the, yeah. So I guess they're scanning in the original artwork and then resetting the title logos.

[00:56:04] Um, and with one of them River of Chaos, , originally back in God, 1995? I think was when River of Chaos came out, um, the title was set. Well, I, I think the original one was set in, in some like, sort of plain, like San Serif font, but then the, the, like, I guess it was either for issue. I think it was for issue two.

[00:56:25] They started, um, this one that was set in this, this font called, uh, new text Demi, which just looks really nice. And it's just kind of like, it's like bold and like a little bit like squat and has these nice little, not really flourishes, but just like really nice parts of flat earth. I don't really know how to explain it but then, but then when Marvel rereleased it, they recreated that logo in just copper plate Gothic, which is another font that I am absolutely tired of.

[00:56:53] Um,

[00:56:54] and it just, it does not look. Yeah. Like it just doesn't look nearly as good in copper plate as it did in new text. And it's like, they. They could have identified it probably, and then have had someone do that. And then one of the other, uh, Marvel re-releases, which was, I think one of the job of the hut comics uses new text, Demi, that same font they updated the logo and actually used that correct font.

[00:57:21] And so it's like, I know that they have the license for it somewhere.

[00:57:24] Why did

[00:57:25] they have it? And they didn't use it for River of Chaos

[00:57:28] and they made

[00:57:29] just like

[00:57:29] a

[00:57:30] worse logo,

[00:57:31] Josh: must have been a different guy that

[00:57:32] day.

[00:57:32] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): some other guy,

[00:57:33] Josh: He's he's the night shift guy.

[00:57:35] Yeah.

[00:57:36] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): He was like river of chaos. Yeah. That looks like copper plate. It's cool.

[00:57:38] Whatever. So that's the kind of, so when it comes to peeves like that, like

[00:57:42] Josh: it's the inconsistency,

[00:57:43] I think really drives me crazy if it's like, you know, you establish a convention, then with it.

[00:57:50] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Yeah. And like, I'm, I'm perfectly fine with people updating their logos

[00:57:54] or, you know, things like that, but like, like recreating the same logo, especially, but doing it just a little bit wrong for whatever reason. Like, I don't know that

[00:58:03] Josh: Well, it's sort of like the uncanny valley of like, of like logos, right?

[00:58:06] It's sort of like, it's sort of worse because it's almost there, but not

[00:58:10] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): it's almost, it's so close. It looks familiar enough, but anyone who's like paying, paying attention to it is like, well, but it's wrong. We know that it's wrong. We can tell that it's wrong, but that's just me. I get, I get very pedantic with certain things like that, which is why I have a, you know, a Twitter about fonts of Star Wars.

[00:58:28] Josh: no, no, I, we love and welcome, pedantry of all of all kinds, especially when it comes to Star Wars on

[00:58:35] this, on this show. that's why I do a Star Wars podcast. Um, what is your take on the Aurab esh Star Wars alphabet?

[00:58:44] Is that how you pronounce it?

[00:58:45] Aurabesh?

[00:58:46] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): I do say Aurabesh yeah. I think some people say like aura, like they, they put a little

[00:58:50] bit, little bit of a higher

[00:58:51] like aura, Aura.

[00:58:54] I, I find it easier to just say Aurabesh.

[00:58:57] Josh: For listeners who may not be familiar, like that's the in universe sort of, Star Wars language that like, whenever you, see anything in universe, um, with the exception of the like tractor beam percentage meter in the original Star in the original version for some reason, What are your thoughts on the Aurabesh?

[00:59:17] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): I, as, as someone who likes to memorize certain things, learning the alphabet was a fun thing for me. I tried to do it when I was a kid. Never really was able to did it recently. I'm I'm getting there.

[00:59:29] Um,

[00:59:30] Josh: you, know, you know, the Orbi,

[00:59:31] alphabet

[00:59:32] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): I mean a little, it's just, I

[00:59:34] mean, it is just like a, it's just like a one to one, you know,

[00:59:37] like

[00:59:37] each

[00:59:37] letter, but. like,

[00:59:38] Josh: So when you see something written on screen, like you can read what it says?

[00:59:43] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): If I pause it and try for a couple minutes. Yeah.

[00:59:47] Josh: that

[00:59:47] is

[00:59:48] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): like, there are other people who can definitely read it much better than me.

[00:59:52] Josh: You have just blown my mind. That is

[00:59:54] an incredible SU that is an incredible superpower.

[00:59:56] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Oh, it's not, it's not too hard. I mean, I did design the thing is I. I couldn't really, uh, until I started designing the two Aurabesh fonts that I did make. Um, I don't know if you saw those.

[01:00:07] I don't know if you were, this was sort of about a year ago now that I

[01:00:09] made these. I don't

[01:00:10] know if you were oh yeah. So I'll send you a link to those.

[01:00:13] Um,

[01:00:13] Josh: please. I, I wanna look at them, but I will also, uh, link to them in the show notes. Of

[01:00:18] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): oh, awesome. Thank you. But yeah, so I didn't, I couldn't really read them until I spent, you know, countless hours designing two fonts based on them. So then, like I

[01:00:27] kind of knew the

[01:00:28] letters. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:00:30] Once you work with them a little

[01:00:31] bit.

[01:00:31] Um, yeah,

[01:00:33] exactly. But the thing is, so I'm, I'm still sort of, of the opinion that they shouldn't have gone back and changed all of the onscreen text to Aurabesh in the originals.

[01:00:45] And then the fact that they sort of avoid using any sort of English, even though it's what, um, High Galactic, I think is what they call the like Latin alphabet in, in universe now.

[01:00:56] But

[01:00:57] like, yeah. So like you have the, which is why you still have things like X wings, cuz they look like Xs and Y wings.

[01:01:02] Cause they look like Y and then like R2-D2 and things like that. So like these letters still exist even though they tried to sort of scrub them clean at, at first. So like would the tractor beam thing, like the original appearance of the Aurabesh alphabet in Return to the Jedi made it really seem like it was just like an Imperial code language.

[01:01:25] And then suddenly they expanded that throughout the entire series. for a while they were only using the one, like variation of that font. Like it was, it was a font that I, I wanna say like what Steven Crane made it for like West End Games. Um,

[01:01:41] Josh: oh, that sounds right.

[01:01:42] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Back in 1991 or something. Yeah.

[01:01:45] Or maybe even before.

[01:01:46] Yeah. And so they were kind of using only this one style of it. And that was kind of annoying that like, cuz if you, if you like leave your house and like, you know, go anywhere, you'll see a million different fonts. And so like I'm supposed to believe that this entire universe only has one font for this Aurabesh alphabet when, before we had, you know, it's like not that many different like textiles for like English in Star Wars.

[01:02:12] But like, it just, it, it got a little weird to me that like, it was always the exact same and they've really branched out a lot more now, with the types of Aurabesh that they show, uh, especially like in Kenobi, I wanna say when he gets to that one sort of like neon planet, I don't remember what it's called, but like you can see like a million different styles, in like different signs and stuff.

[01:02:31] So I think I've, I've warmed to it a lot more now that it feels a lot more believable and real. Um, but before it would just be like, oh, this is in this same font and this one too. And the Empire's using it and the Rebellion is using it. And it's all, they're all buying their like Letraset sheets from the same, you know, company or

[01:02:48] Josh: Right, exactly. Yeah. Like for me, it just seemed like it was never designed with the intention of being used the, the way it's used,

[01:02:57] which is like everywhere for everything. you know, like, it's cool that like you can read it, because like you said, it's like, a one to one for the English alphabet.

[01:03:07] Um, some of them, correct me if I'm wrong, but like some of them not even changed all that much.

[01:03:12] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Uh, I mean, as, as far as I'm concerned, the G just looks like a sideways G

[01:03:16] Um, the, I, the, I looks like a one, the, the L looks kinda like a weird backwards L so like yeah. A lot of 'em do look like they're Latin

[01:03:25] counterparts, for sure.

[01:03:27] Josh: So, it's like pig Latin almost like it,

[01:03:29] it, it doesn't really hold up to scrutiny

[01:03:33] yet.

[01:03:34] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): but you can crack it in about 10 seconds.

[01:03:36] Josh: Exactly. Exactly. but yeah, somehow it, became like the written language for all of star

[01:03:43] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): which

[01:03:44] in universe. Yeah, I guess, but like, even in universe, it doesn't really make that much sense. Cuz like, like I said, it was, it, it looked like it was just supposed to be like this Imperial code language. And if you go back one movie to empire strikes back when, um, When Luke is X-Wing and R two is talking, it's being translated on the screen.

[01:03:59] Totally different alphabet. Uh, and then you go back one more movie. And originally on the tractor beam thing is just in regular Latin letters. Um, and then, uh, on the screen of the death star, that's like targeting Yan. It just says Yan up there.

[01:04:13] Josh: No, it is interesting. So when Star Wars always kind of rides this line of like, how far can we stray from what is familiar? Like how much do we want to tweak it or how much do we need to tweak it before it becomes something foreign and unrecognizable.

[01:04:31] Right. And like, I feel like they could've dialed up the unrecognizability of the alphabet a little bit more, or at least have like multiple ones than just the one. So, but I mean, so, but mean like, it does do something fun for the fans who like, because like, you know, they like , hide Easter eggs and that stuff and stuff like that.

[01:04:48] So, I mean, so, I mean, that's,

[01:04:49] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Like, uh, like when Futurama, like had their alphabets and, and the audience kept like, figuring out the codes and then

[01:04:55] they would do, like, they would do like more like in depth ciphers and the audience would figure those out and there's like, we give up, like, you guys are way too good. So, yeah, it's a, it's a fun thing to have in there.

[01:05:06] And then like, obviously with like Episode One, they started having like the Naboo alphabet and, there was like a Hutt alphabet, I think that was also in there somewhere. And then like the numbers for the pod race, uh,

[01:05:17] like 3, 2, 1 go kind of thing. So they definitely ramped it up by then. But even then.

[01:05:23] I'm pretty sure when it came to the Aurabesh alphabet, it was still just that same one

[01:05:27] over and over everywhere. And so

[01:05:29] Josh: No. And like, you never really see those other ones anywhere, like the Naboo alphabet or the Hutt alphabet.

[01:05:34] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Yeah. Yeah. They're not nearly as prevalent.

[01:05:38] Josh: yeah. I mean like most of the important stuff, like, even in Andor the other night, I mean everything is still written in Aurabesh and even like, I think it was you who pointed it out.

[01:05:46] Like there was like a very clear, five on the side of like a

[01:05:49] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Yeah.

[01:05:50] just a regular five. Love

[01:05:52] it.

[01:05:52] Josh: a regular five. It's like, you know, no attempt to behind it though, you know, if you look at, docking bay 94, when they're walking in, there's a 94

[01:06:01] painted on the side, it's like, it's very stylized.

[01:06:03] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): stylized. Just

[01:06:05] one of the greatest little details, cuz you just don't see it

[01:06:08] until someone

[01:06:09] points it

[01:06:09] out.

[01:06:09] Josh: until someone point. Yeah. Yeah

[01:06:11] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): I mean, I would say for the most part numbers kind of get a pass. Like they, they can appear sort of as numbers because numbers are kind of universal, you know, like, uh, if you look at the sort of range meter on, uh, Luke's binoculars in A New Hope, like they still look like normal numbers, just maybe a little bit stylized.

[01:06:29] And I don't remember if we ever identified once again, I'm going to look, , to see if we identified those numbers.

[01:06:36] Josh: Uh, would you say we, , do you mean like the Star Wars, , Twitter community at

[01:06:40] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Yeah, like it was, for the UI post that I made back in May, it looks like, uh, I worked with, uh, another user Aurekfonts.

[01:06:48] Um, yeah. And so he, he sent me a bunch of things, uh, the identifiable parts and then I, I put a post together. So it's kind of a, it's a little collaboration there, which is really fun.

[01:06:59] But yeah, so for Luke's, uh, binoculars, they're just actually, it's all just regular numbers. you have three different fonts that are all just regular, everyday numbers, and I think so, so numbers can definitely show up in Star Wars and be absolutely normal. It's just that when you start getting just, you know, Latin letters, then you start, you start to get in trouble a little bit, even though High Galactic is definitely a thing because otherwise we wouldn't have X-wings,

[01:07:25] Y-wings.

[01:07:26] Josh: Right, right.

[01:07:28] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Yeah,

[01:07:29] Josh: My final question. Now that you have amassed of this knowledge about Star Wars, typography, and graphic design, do you have any plans or have any thoughts about, doing something more with it than, I don't wanna say just a Twitter account as if it's not an

[01:07:43] amazing resource that is so is so wonderful.

[01:07:46] Uh, but it's outta curiosity. Like, , I know you mentioned you have a YouTube channel. but I don't know, like, I'm just imagining, you know, back in the day when I was trying to make a Star Wars fan film 20 something years ago, and I was like, trying to figure out like what these, type faces were like, I would've loved for a resource, like your Twitter account to exist because it would've, it would've told me everything I was looking for.

[01:08:08] And then

[01:08:08] some

[01:08:08] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Star Wars style guide that you could get from somewhere.

[01:08:11] Josh: right, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:08:13] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): I mean, I, I should, I could probably, I mean,

[01:08:15] Josh: you

[01:08:16] could publish the Star Wars style

[01:08:17] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): yeah. Why not? I mean, I should, I wish I could do something like official, you know, like I like with Lucasfilm with their money, I suppose. um, but no, like I mentioned that book, uh, Type Set in the Future earlier that was also one of my inspirations for doing this.

[01:08:33] Was like, I, I looked through it and I was like, oh, there's no Star Wars in here. What if, because Star Wars is such a big thing. What if there was a book that was just about like Star Wars fonts and that's how I originally envisioned this project going, , before like realizing that like that's a lot of work upfront and it would, I wouldn't be able to do anything.

[01:08:51] Like, there there'd be no real, like instant gratification for us. I was like, well, a Twitter would actually make a lot of sense because then I could sort of interact with people. Anything that I don't know, I could ask, , anything that I get wrong, I could be corrected on which, you know, I don't mind. It's fine.

[01:09:05] uh, but like I think that a book would be really, really cool. I just, I don't have the means or the connections to do it

[01:09:12] Josh: Well, it seems, it seems to me like you are, building some inroads on, Twitter. It seems like, I see a lot of your tweets referenced all over the place in some, high places. So, who knows, but at the very least, I think, Pablo Hidalgo though, he likes to downplay his stature within the, company.

[01:09:29] um, sure I've seen him retweet you and reply to you a whole bunch of

[01:09:33] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): oh, he definitely replies. Yeah. He's really good at, at that, like, you can kind of always rely on him to, to have an answer for you, which is really nice. Not that I wanna like put way too much on him. Just like, Hey, Pablo me

[01:09:43] again. Uh,

[01:09:45] Josh: I feel so bad for that guy. He's yeah, he I mean, we don't deserve him.

[01:09:49] We

[01:09:52] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): is definitely true.

[01:09:53] Josh: but yeah, I mean, though, like you said, now, like, it seems like a lot of that upfront work that you were talking about is, I mean, certainly not all of it, but like a large chunk of it, has now been completed through the Twitter account.

[01:10:05] So you could like throw together a proposal and just be like, Hey, I got,

[01:10:10] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): we've got it all ready to go.

[01:10:12] Josh: if you're

[01:10:12] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): It's technically been published before, but

[01:10:14] Josh: Yes.

[01:10:17] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Uh, yeah, maybe I should design like a template for what the entries would look like in print. And then just send that along. I don't know if I'm gonna get a cease and desist. If I try that,

[01:10:26] I don't

[01:10:26] know.

[01:10:27] Josh: well,

[01:10:27] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): know. how that would go,

[01:10:28] Josh: no, I mean, I would like try to like, you know, get it in the hands of like a Pablo Hidalgo

[01:10:33] like figure, to be

[01:10:35] like, Hey,

[01:10:35] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): can you, can you, give this to your boss

[01:10:38] Josh: no, but not even like that is. It's like, is there anything you want to do with this?

[01:10:43] because I've, I've done it,

[01:10:44] like it's here. I know all this stuff, is there any way that, this would, be useful for you guys?

[01:10:49] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Yeah. Like Lucasfilm Story Group kind of thing, but for

[01:10:52] strictly like design stuff and like type stuff. Yeah. Which, I mean, it's, it's an idea that I've sort of thought about a little bit. I just, I don't know.

[01:11:00] Josh: Well, we'll see.

[01:11:01] Justin, I really enjoyed this conversation very

[01:11:04] very much. Um, there's something about the attention to detail and the obsession and I mean that in a, a good way, to minutiae of this sort, especially with something like Star Wars it's so design heavy it's so about the aesthetics that like something the fonts, actually their importance is actually much more than I think, the average Joe would necessarily

[01:11:30] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Yeah.

[01:11:31] And like, I mean, it, it, it's one of those things that like, if you just see blue text, like, even if it doesn't say, you know, a long time ago, a galaxy far, far away, but if it's that same blue text on a black background with like, you know, four dots at the end or whatever, like at the beginning of every episode of Clone Wars, like you're already in this universe.

[01:11:50] Josh: Yeah.

[01:11:51] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Like, you know it already, you don't even have to see the yellow text. You don't have to see anything. It's just that. And you're like, oh right. That's what, that's how Star Wars says once upon a time. And so here I am.

[01:12:00] Josh: Yeah, it's, it's a testament to, , design and I think also simplicity. I think that's a part of it too. It's like the straightforwardness of it, but like the distinction. It's also really interesting how, like, they really claimed, at least in the original versions of the original trilogy, you had that sort of like, green, like neon green, almost depending on the print and then blue then yellow it's

[01:12:22] like this, like, Yeah.

[01:12:24] It's like, really wild actually. Like how they, specifically, we're like, okay, we want, to make very clear distinctions between these three cards, but will do so primarily using color.

[01:12:36] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Yeah.

[01:12:37] Josh: And primary color.

[01:12:38] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Very primary as, as simple as we can do it.

[01:12:42] Josh: And it's iconic.

[01:12:44] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Yeah. I mean, it just, they all just work and like, I mean the Lucasfilm thing, like so iconic that even though they didn't use it for 20, 30 years, they brought it back for the last season Clone Wars

[01:12:55] it's some, yeah, they did for, I think the, the last arc in the last season.

[01:12:59] , because I think that they wanted to connect it directly back to the original trilogy.

[01:13:04] Josh: Oh, I think you're right now that I'm remembering it.

[01:13:07] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Yeah. And so they, they actually brought it back and they just set it in a nice, you know, slightly glowing green Helvetica. And like, there it was. Just right back.

[01:13:16] Josh: That was the inspiration for the Trash Compactor logo.

[01:13:19] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Yeah,

[01:13:20] Josh: Yeah. Like that was. my whole thing. It's like, I'm like, it's like a subtle connection to that era. That's like, it doesn't like necessarily read immediately as Star Wars, but yet on a subtle level, it's like, if you grew up watching Star Wars on VHS, you know what that is.

[01:13:36] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Yeah, you're gonna see it. You're gonna recognize it. And like, and if you don't, you don't really have to, you can still enjoy what it is that I'm bringing, but like anyone who has poured over Star Wars, as much as, you know, the people who are very much obsessed, you know, like, uh, like us,

[01:13:50] like they're gonna see that and be like, yeah, I recognize that green text.

[01:13:53] I know

[01:13:54] I know that stuff, that, that means a Star Wars inbound.

[01:13:57] Josh: Uh, were you surprised when you went, , to register Star Wars fonts and it was available?

[01:14:03] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Yeah, incredibly surprised. I wa I was like, there's absolutely no way that no one has tried this before. Like, it just seems like two things that go together. So well,

[01:14:13] Josh: it does.

[01:14:14] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): how many versions of like the crawl tutorials I can find on YouTube? Like

[01:14:19] Josh: Yeah. Like how is no one? Yeah. I have to admit, like, that was like one of my, not first thoughts, but I was like, oh, like I'm talking to the Star Wars fonts on Twitter. Like he must be the guy so, um, yeah. Well, I'm glad it was you cuz

[01:14:32] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): Yeah. I don't know how that someone didn't like, sit on that for a while.

[01:14:36] Josh: Well, it's your gain, my friend.

[01:14:38] Justin (@StarWarsFonts): It's my it's all mine.

[01:14:40] Josh: So if you've made it this far and if you're at all curious to get into some more Star Wars minutia, and actually see some of the things that we've been talking about throughout this conversation, please go to twitter.com/StarWarsFonts. Very easy to remember, not like trashcompod1. know why it has that one hanging on there. yeah. Anyway, transcripts of this episode and all our other episodes are available at trashcompod.com and we are trashcompod across all social media. Thank you again to Justin

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Sometimes I make things.