THE FIRST RETCON: Splinter of the Mind's Eye

[00:00:00] Josh: Welcome to Trash Compactor. I'm Josh. And today I'm joined by John

[00:00:06] Jonny: Hi.

[00:00:06] Josh: and special guests. The engineer of the Game of Rassilon on the best doctor who RPG podcasts there is

[00:00:15] Michael: Uh, thank you. But we're definitely one of them. Yes.

[00:00:18] Josh: well, it's subjective, it's subjective. And this is me saying it not you.

[00:00:21] Michael: Yeah.

[00:00:22] Jonny: So

[00:00:22] it is the best

[00:00:24] Josh: today we're going to be discussing splinter of the mind's eye, the 1978 novel by Alan Dean foster published just shy of a year after the release of the original star wars in March of 1978, it was actually written during the production of the original star wars.

[00:00:40] It's the first novel in what came to be called the expanded universe and is technically the first official sequel to star wars and the first story to be retconned, According to Wikipedia. The little blurb is the story focuses on Luke Skywalker and princess Leia who are marooned together on the world of Minban, where they encountered the locals and struggle against the forces of the evil galactic empire, including Darth Vader while seeking out the powerful Kyber crystal. So, we've all re-read this recently? Correct?

[00:01:11] Jonny: actually, this is for the first time. I'd never read it before.

[00:01:14] Josh: Oh, really?

[00:01:15] Michael: Oh,

[00:01:16] Josh: so Michael, you had read it before. Yes.

[00:01:18] Michael: Yes, I did my second read. I actually read it in the two days leading up to recording this

[00:01:24] Josh: And we thank you. It's we thank you very much for spending your weekend reading splinter of the mind's eye. it's a great and noble sacrifice and I'm sure our listeners appreciate it very, very much. what do we think overall thoughts on splinter of the mind's know that it's fresh of our mind?

[00:01:39] I hadn't read it since I was in fifth grade.

[00:01:42] Jonny: Yeah, I've always been aware of it. And I, I remember seeing the, uh, the comic book art for it at comic stores. And, uh, it was just always like in the, in the atmosphere, but I just never sought it out for some strange reason. I don't know.

[00:01:55] Josh: Well, it is kind of an interesting, like anomaly in star wars because, it's the first piece of IX of quote unquote expanded universe material, you know, before that was even a term, that was retcon. Basically almost immediately, as soon as the empire strikes back comes out, I don't know if it directly contradicts anything in the book, but like the characterization is all wonky and

[00:02:17] Jonny: Yeah.

[00:02:18] see it going in one direction and then empire, like forcibly pulls it into another direction. so you kind of see it as like a, not like a misstep, but it just, I guess maybe that's the reason why I didn't really seek it out was because I just thought I sort of. Almost like, quote unquote, like not real, like, so

[00:02:35] Josh: well, well, yeah,

[00:02:36] Jonny: bother like going to read it.

[00:02:38] I'm like, well, why invest in something that's like, not considered like what the story is, you know?

[00:02:43] Josh: well, so that's very interesting that you, you put it like that because the thing that I kept thinking of when I finished it was. You know, a lot of people were very upset and they're still very upset about the decolonization of a lot of the expanded universe material, after the Disney sale. And I was kinda like, of course they're doing that because they were about to make new movies.

[00:03:07] And I was trying to figure out why I sort of was not surprised at all and was like, yeah, I mean, of course it's a no brainer and why a lot of other fans had a much larger reactions than mine. And I realized, you know, the example is splinter of the mind's eye from, from very early on, basically says You know, the novels are kind of fun while you're waiting in between movies. But then when the movie comes out, that's the quote unquote real thing. And the very first example we have of that is splinter of the mind's eye, this novel and the empire strikes back.

[00:03:39] Like it goes back that far. Right. Michael, you were the one who suggested, I don't know how cheekily, but you suggested the topic of this episode. I believe it was something along the lines of splinter of the mind's eye. The true CQL to star wars

[00:03:56] Michael: Yeah.

[00:03:56] Josh: mark. could you talk a little bit about what you meant by that?

[00:04:00] Or what about this you found compelling?

[00:04:04] Michael: Very obviously I meant at cheekily, but

[00:04:07] it, the thing I love about split on the mind's eye is it's like, this is what they thought star wars was going to be next. Like Harrison, Ford's not coming back. And we're just going to do serialize adventures where like Darth Vader is just like the black night. And at the end of it just shows up in act three and then he falls in a hole, like, like that's, she's just like a bad guy.

[00:04:31] Like it, that the thing I love about splinter of the mind's eye is it's not, it doesn't feel like episode five. It feels like star wars too. Like that's, that's the thing about it where I'm just like, oh, okay. And then like th there there's all kinds of stuff in here in the book. I mean, here, there's all kinds of stuff in the book where I'm just, it's a totally different conception of star wars to what we got like down to there's a bit at the end of a chapter I two. I'll get back to this list. Sorry. I was going to do the, like how I read the book, but look at that and say there's a bit at the end of a chapter where Luke is like, oh, hang on one second. And he like takes a power pack out of a gun and puts it into his lightsaber to like, to like charge up his lightsaber.

[00:05:18] And I'm like, no star wars has ever done this. This is like the very idea that the lightsabers have a battery is like, so anomaly to, or like a Natha to what star wars is now. That that is why I find splinter so interesting because it's paradoxically both like this abandoned. You know the fork in the road, but also it's like a complete roadmap to everything they've done with star wars in the SQL era, or like specifically the InterCall era, like rebel one is like all about a Kyber, crystal, like solo is all about like, uh, God, what's the thing.

[00:06:00] they have whole scenes on men, Ben with a huge Imperial occupation. Um, even down to like Jedi fallen order, like you go into a Jedi temple and like crack a bunch of myths to open up like a crystal, like it's, it's, it's such a roadmap to specifically the InterCall era that I, I just, I find it really interesting as

[00:06:20] Josh: Intercourse. I don't know that I've ever heard that.

[00:06:22] Michael: Between,

[00:06:25] Josh: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:06:26] Jonny: Yeah, no, no, it's, it's, it's great. I like it.

[00:06:29] Michael: But it's that zone between episodes three and four, that they've made two movies and some other stuff. And like that rebels cartoon that I'm never going to watch all that, all that you know,

[00:06:39] Josh: heard. It's very good. I

[00:06:40] also haven't watched it.

[00:06:41] Michael: I, I just don't care when the characters show up on other shows, I'm like, oh, a comic guy.

[00:06:47] I don't

[00:06:48] Jonny: I think it's

[00:06:49] just a medium. Yeah. Like I have a thing where like, if, if I'm going to watch something that's on it. Um, I consider the visual art form of the animation, says something and, um, and that art form of net specific animation stuff or rebels doesn't draw me in. And then on top of it, I just feel like it's kind of treated more like TV.

[00:07:10] So I'm like, just leave it here. It is very good though. You know, I hear it. There are moments I've seen on YouTube that are pretty freaking cool. I'm not gonna lie, but like, I dunno if I wanted to vote like all the hours to it. Maybe it's my mistake, but I'm with you.

[00:07:24] Michael: I don't know, five seasons of time. I'm still trying to finish severance, man. Like, come on.

[00:07:28] Jonny: Yeah.

[00:07:30] Josh: yeah, but something you said, Michael is very interesting. And I actually think we said exactly the same thing on the empire episode about how they could have done star wars too. But instead we got the empire strikes back, which is not at, all what you expect from the sequel to the movie star wars.

[00:07:46] Like, I mean, now it's sort of hard to, put yourself in that head space of like what sequel to star wars you would imagine it would be, having just seen the one film.

[00:07:56] Jonny: well, we talked about an empire, how empire turned into like the saga, like this is now like a thing, uh, the splinter of the mind. I, yeah. And splinter the mind. I was totally not a thing. It's definitely a venture of the week and

[00:08:12] yes.

[00:08:14] Michael: right?

[00:08:14] Jonny: And, and exactly that. And with the flash Gordon thing, you're talking about charging with the lightsaber.

[00:08:18] It's like, yeah. Like, uh, I think it was still trying to do like a Saifai story with fancy elements of a fantasy story with Saifai elements a little bit, like, it's weird. Like there, I know there's like archetypes, but like the keep adding these things, like I got to charge my blaster and do this and that to that, to like, and then they throw in a lot more technical jargon and it's like, oh, this is like a writer like.

[00:08:47] I think that happens to be called star wars and he's treating treatment like any other scifi story. So, is admirable, you know? But, uh, I, I definitely saw how, like, I guess it was like, no one figured out what star wars was yet until the following movie.

[00:09:03] Josh: Well, the interesting thing that I didn't even realize until, um, yesterday when I was perusing the entry on Wikipedia to, to just, cross my T's and.my eyes was that apparently Alan Dean foster was writing this during the production of star wars. So he hadn't even seen the movie yet,

[00:09:19] which

[00:09:20] Jonny: that when you read it.

[00:09:21] Josh: yeah, well, so, I agree with you, John, it does very much feel like a Saifai writer who is, without. more specific direction or instruction or without a lot of material to go on, really, he's sort of falling back on what he does, which is he writes science fiction novels, and it very much, you very much get that sense. there's a lot of problem solving whenever they make a decision or like try to solve a problem about how to do something, they'd like walk through, well, we could do it this way, but then it would mean like XYZ.

[00:09:53] It's like, well, you didn't have to explain why you're not doing that one. Like, we don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Like, it doesn't really, so it actually kind of reminded me. Michael, you might appreciate this of a classic Dr.

[00:10:05] Who cereal, the beginning is really about familiarizing yourself with the world and you learn how the world works and you see the different, factions that populate it. And like, you spend a lot of time, like really like problem solving and world-building, until you have the climactic, you know, encounter and like, solve the mystery at the end and it's like, you know, you move on to another adventure.

[00:10:30] Um, that is the exact, opposite. Of what the film star wars was like, so much of it you know, is really about, we're not going to spend a lot of time here at all, and we're not going to waste any time explaining every little thing to you.

[00:10:44] Whereas splinter of the mind's eye does the exact opposite.

[00:10:48] Jonny: It was immediately obvious to me, uh, that there was a disconnect. And it's funny because I didn't know that. I didn't see the movie either, but when you read it, um, the first thing that really stuck out to me was the fact that they keep calling each other by name and conversation multiple times.

[00:11:06] And it's like a, no one speaks like that in reality. And B if you saw the movie, uh, they never do that in the movie either. So like in the movie, they're not, they're not constantly going like Luke, Luke Leia, Luke layaway, Luke. And it's just like, why are they keep saying each other's names at each other?

[00:11:22] Like, they're the only people in the room. then, um, the scifi nature of it too. Like, think twice in the book, he, uh, uses the lightsabers, like a Swiss army knife. And like only turns it on to like maybe like five inches to like pick a lock. And it's like, oh, okay. Like, this is like, it's an interesting idea.

[00:11:40] But like, that was that that's, that's talking about the lightsaber as if it's not expected. You know, like that's talking about the lightsaber, like it's a tool that anyone can use. And it's like, it's, uh, an interesting angle, you know, there are little buttons and knobs and switches on the prop. So you can't fault someone from being original on that.

[00:12:00] But like, yeah, there's this a lot of things. And then as we get into the podcast later, too, there's a lot of characterizations, uh, between Luke and Leia, uh, beyond the romance where it's just like, I don't, didn't like, I, I could maybe see where he kind of got the idea for these actions, but in my head, I was like, there's a disconnect with the characters, as the book is going on, not even thinking about Jedi or empire, it's thinking about a new hope.

[00:12:25] I was like, there's a bit of a disconnect.

[00:12:27] Josh: Well, but again though, like if you read the script , for a new home, And if you haven't seen the actors, inhabiting those characters, like you really kind of at a loss for characterization, I mean, these characters are basically, completely from the mind of Alan Dean foster, like, like what he imagines,

[00:12:43] uh,

[00:12:43] Jonny: had a farm boy hero and a princess with a, with a feisty personality and he just went with that.

[00:12:50] Michael: Um,

[00:12:50] Jonny: if you watch the movies, it's like, oh, there's something like your inference. Like there's something more to it than that. And in the book, there's moments between the two of them where it's like, they would never have done that.

[00:13:03] Like if they made a SQL to a new hope, there's no way they would've done these things with Carrie Fisher and mark Hamill after the performances, they gave him the first movie.

[00:13:13] Michael: yeah, it feels like a novelization of a conversation with George Lucas.

[00:13:17] Jonny: Yes.

[00:13:19] Michael: The next star wars story, which that's the thing that fascinates me about it. Is it really dwells in like the stuff that, you're saying, John sick wouldn't be in the movie, like, um, like Layla's, it's like the haunting impact of the interrogation droid from the first star wars, which is like just nobody cares in any of the movies.

[00:13:41] Right. It's it's when you think about that, it's like, oh, whoa. Right. Of course that's a big deal. And then like, even in the first chapter or so Luke is having his. I'm just exposing about the state of the universe, opening to the book. when he's like, I refused a title and now there's all this stuff that, that the opening of the book, it's like, Hey, don't worry.

[00:14:03] All your favorite characters are just where you left them ready for another adventure. It really has that like next episode thing going

[00:14:13] Jonny: Yeah.

[00:14:13] Michael: is very funny, considering the star wars two versus episode five of it. it doesn't feel like a lik an epic saga. Like you, like you were saying about empire, it feels like funny enough, it feels like episode two of like star wars, you know, like the, the original triangle logo, like it just is like

[00:14:35] Jonny: like a TV movie a little bit. And I

[00:14:38] Michael: the cold cereal. Yeah.

[00:14:39] Jonny: budget movie, but you can make a low budget movie that has higher stakes or like, uh, I don't, I don't want to say like more depth because that sounds insulting, but like, you can make a TV movie that still has like pathos to it.

[00:14:53] uh, this has just seems like, like another adventure, like you were saying, you know, Michael.

[00:14:57] Michael: This is like the Disney plus or like the Netflix show that comes after the movie where they just

[00:15:03] Jonny: Yeah.

[00:15:04] Michael: kind of really dwell on character stuff. really

[00:15:08] Jonny: This is much more like caravan, uh, the movies, like it feels that sort of like, and here's a zany adventure with these characters that the thing

[00:15:16] Josh: John, you mentioned, I think it's, it's pretty well established that, this was, commissioned, with kind of the idea in the back of mind that, you know, if star wars, the movie star wars, is not, a success that, this story might be suitable for like a cheapo lower budget sequel. And along those lines, the guidelines that were given to Alan Dean foster by George Lucas was no Han solo because, Harrison Ford, had no contract. And there was a question whether or not he'd even be interested in coming back,

[00:15:46] Michael: every single time Harrison Ford came back for star wars, he was like, kill me.

[00:15:51] Josh: kill mail.

[00:15:52] Michael: This is the

[00:15:53] Josh: Um,

[00:15:53] Michael: kill me. Right.

[00:15:56] Jonny: Porch your bucket. Peter Mayhew was like, I guess I'm tagged with Han solo. So I can't come back. Even if I wanted to.

[00:16:01] Michael: Can you imagine a star wars with no, like the millennium Falcons just gone, like, oh, it

[00:16:06] was just

[00:16:06] that one guy shipped from that one time. Like who cares? Like crazy toilet, like,

[00:16:12] Josh: well, yeah, I mean, I can't imagine it. We just read it and it's it's, it's not, yeah. the other dictum was no space battles. Cause that's expensive. And the third one I believe was to set it on a swamp planet so they could shoot it in studio and things kind of fall off into darkness.

[00:16:28] so it's sort of low budget and, you know, what's interesting, like I was thinking those three things kind of do apply to the empire strikes back

[00:16:35] Jonny: Yeah,

[00:16:35] Josh: of Han solo in it. There are no battles. I mean, obviously there's a huge battle sequence at the beginning, but there's not space battles.

[00:16:42] a lot of it does happen on a SWAT planet that was shot in the studio. While I was reading though, I was imagining what if they did use this as the basis for an actual film and they made it as an actual film? like you were saying, John, there were ways to do this.

[00:16:59] Jonny: sorry.

[00:16:59] Josh: That would have worked.

[00:17:02] Jonny: It's funny. Cause I feel like with the empire strikes back, they do, as you mentioned, Josh, they do touch on themes that they, that they use a lot in the book, like, uh, Luke's on a swamp planet for all half the movie, uh, Han and Leia are now the Han and Luke role where they're on the run and they're getting to know each other and bond over the course of the movie.

[00:17:23] Um,

[00:17:24] Josh: point. No, that's true.

[00:17:26] Jonny: that's also like the central plot to splint the mine's like those two characters bonding and forming a romance, but now it's as Han and Leia, it's the same sort of thing they could have done it, you know? Um,

[00:17:36] looking over the comic, I saw that like the comic has kind of like a hindsight thing and they were intercutting things were more star wars.

[00:17:46] from the movies into the comics. So there's like more scenes with Darth Vader like making plans as compared to the book where he just shows up in like the last 50, no pages,

[00:17:56] Michael: I sense his presence. He's going to be here.

[00:17:59] Jonny: Yes, exactly. And three PO has a lot more jokes because he's funny, you're in the movies and he is in the novel.

[00:18:05] b

[00:18:05] Josh: well I was just having the thought, Michael, you said this is sort of like a novelization of a description of a conversation that George Lucas had describing the CQL. I'm sure George Lucas described it as like, it's kind of like a flash Gordon cereal Like that statement with the lack of having seen the movie I totally see how you write this off of that description.

[00:18:30] Michael: Yeah. It feels like an artifact from a parallel world, which just like fell

[00:18:33] through a hole. That's the thing. I, first read this like, well, after all the sequels came out,

[00:18:40] Josh: Oh really?

[00:18:41] Michael: chance to read it before.

[00:18:42] Josh: Oh,

[00:18:42] interesting. Interesting.

[00:18:43] Michael: I was like, all right, I'm finally gonna check this thing out.

[00:18:46] Now that we're in this like deeply posts, equal era. Right. And I read it. I'm just like, oh wow. It's the thing that it still assesses me about it. That I've said it like more than one time already. It's like, it just feels like a roadmap to everything that came after, is very funny considering the whole, like the pay Alan Dean foster thing.

[00:19:05] Um, cause like, arguably like if this is the roadmap to the rest of star wars, like you really, you really got to pay that guy. It's like, whoa. It's like all in here. Points the book, know?

[00:19:17] Jonny: What are they not paying know what's going on with that? I

[00:19:19] don't know what.

[00:19:20] Michael: yeah, there's a whole, um, That, don't know if this'll be in the pod, but they, they They argued that when they bought all the star wars stuff, they didn't have to pay any of their royalties anymore.

[00:19:33] Jonny: Oh, yeah, I remember that now. I

[00:19:35] remember that.

[00:19:35] Michael: like, no, that's not how the law works. Um, got a couple of

[00:19:40] Josh: that's true.

[00:19:41] Michael: nice dry,

[00:19:42] Josh: Yeah.

[00:19:43] Michael: but anyway,

[00:19:44] Josh: well, no, so it is interesting cause cause Alan Dean foster also ghost wrote the novelization of star wars uh, written by George Lucas. So the Kyber crystal was actually in the, I believe it's the third draft. not the shooting script for star wars, a new hope, but the draft, right before that, more or less resembles the film we got.

[00:20:04] but there is the Kyber crystal in that draft that operates the way . That it operates in this novel where it's, it's sort of like magnifies your, your force powers or whatever. And they drop that, because it's, it's a lot of stuff. it's sort of a hat on a hat and it's like, well, what do you need the crystal for?

[00:20:22] Like, isn't it. So like, can use the forest without the crystal, but then he also needs the crystal to use the force. It's like a little, confusing, so you can see like why they would, get rid of that but so you can see like, I'm thinking of swamp

[00:20:33] Jonny: yeah,

[00:20:34] Josh: this Kyber crystal thing that, I thought was pretty cool, but I ended up not using, you can't use this character a cheap, the other interesting thing is that that Alan Dean foster says that in his conversations with George Lucas, George Lucas told him that Darth Vader was, he was sort of a flunky. he's not the real, big, bad of the galaxy. And you can see why Alan Dean foster, the way that he used the Imperial governors as sort of the scary villains, right?

[00:21:06] Jonny: Yeah, that was very interesting. Actually.

[00:21:07] Josh: Yeah. Well, so which I think is actually kind of savvy and kind of makes sense. And they say in that conference room scene , where Peter Cushing, walks in, in the middle of the meeting and he says, The emperor has just disbanded the Senate and the Imperial governors now have direct control over their territories. Right. something that's missing in, I mean, arguably in the movies themselves, as you don't really know, you don't really see what life is like in the galaxy under the empire.

[00:21:34] Jonny: Yeah. Uh, that, that, reminds me of the bar scene the book with the natives and everything like that. And, uh,

[00:21:42] I don't know. I, I, I was kind of taken a back a little bit at that scene where like the guy pours the alcohol on the ground and the native like, looks it up and then he kicks him in the head.

[00:21:54] That's incredibly dark for star wars. But then I was thinking about like, um, I might've been projecting, but like the old cliches of like Firewater and stuff like that, and like alcohol with natives in America. And then I thought about like, did he just like that into like these green aliens?

[00:22:12] And like, he's like, oh yeah, the natives are all addicted to the drink. And they like will slip it up off the ground. I was like, Jesus Christ.

[00:22:20] Josh: Yeah,

[00:22:20] well, so

[00:22:21] Jonny: I was like, I was like, kind of offended and just been like, what is going on with this scene? You know,

[00:22:27] Josh: it does like try to say like, Hey, life under Imperial rule is. Not good. Like, I mean, there's a reason why, they're, they're fighting this war. uh, you know, in the movies, I think the political conflict and like reality of the things that they're, they're talking about, the idea that there's an evil dictator, essentially ruling the galaxy and, the empire sort of shows up your planet and, does whatever it wants.

[00:22:53] Like, I mean, not to cross over into like the empire did nothing wrong, territory, but like we don't movies don't show you. Why the empire is so bad aside from huge kind of, abstract, things that we don't understand, like, you know, they blew up a planet. I mean, like, it's obviously bad, but like we don't

[00:23:09] Jonny: pretty big deal.

[00:23:10] Josh: no, but not the way the movie shows it though,

[00:23:13] Jonny: That's true. That's true.

[00:23:14] Josh: we don't see anybody on the planet. we don't have, we don't see, the point of view of, Alderaan like, we just see this very abstract thing where they blow up this planet in space and we don't have a connection to it.

[00:23:28] And it's also not something we really understand. It's like, you know, we don't relate to seeing, to seeing a planet blown up. I like that sort of too massive to really, imagined. So that's what I'm saying.

[00:23:39] Jonny: Sure. And to be clear, I mean like, yeah, the original trilogy definitely sanitizes the evil that the empire does just, just to make it known to the audience that they're evil, but to be clear, uh, even when I maybe some offense at that scene, like I didn't, I didn't think it was written with like malicious intent.

[00:23:57] Like I think I was just like, uh, something that like, he thought about like the way that you said he was like, oh, let's make this like a character thing and put some paths into it. And it was just true. He did that, I also feel like, uh, most of the time when he does it in the book, kind of like reflects this old school perspective on many things, maybe that was still prevalent in the seventies.

[00:24:17] So like, when he puts pathos into layup, she gets really upset a lot that she's covered in mud like, she wouldn't be upset over that. And then

[00:24:27] Josh: No.

[00:24:27] Jonny: for no reason whatsoever, she has like a panic attack and starts screaming. has a calm her down. It was like, she wouldn't do that. And it's like, and this is like, but he's like, he's he's projected.

[00:24:37] On her, because she's the princess and Luke is the hero, but like Luke can have a panic attack or like, why are any of them having a panic attack? It's like, and then, uh, Michael, you mentioned before how she thinks a lot about the interrogation. I think that's actually kind of cool, but, um, cause they, they kind of just like, uh, Josh was saying they kind of just brush all the other shit under the rug in the movie, but, uh, but yeah, it's like, it's just stuff like, like that.

[00:25:01] I don't know. Like I feel like, uh, uh, like the characterizations is like, I see what they're doing. They're trying to get deeper into the characters, but like they're, I feel like they're using like an old school lens of, uh, how I've had to look at things back then. So it kind of gets, this comes across as that like, oh yeah, she's the princess, of course she's gonna act really entitled and like their cover because she feels like she's insulted.

[00:25:23] It's just

[00:25:24] Michael: Yeah. That's

[00:25:25] Jonny: like that. It's like, oh, she definitely, you know, she's a girl and Luke's

[00:25:29] Michael: mm.

[00:25:30] Jonny: put her in her place. It's like, oh

[00:25:32] Michael: Yeah. It's like a book written in 1978 based on 1930 cereals. So like, like the, the, the bar scene you're describing has a very, like, colonialism is bad thing. Like there's no denying that. Right? Like it

[00:25:44] Jonny: True.

[00:25:45] Michael: this, dark edge of Imperial colonialism, which movies lack, but at the same time, and even when like, unquote praising the, the quote unquote natives, like he calls them Aborigine warriors.

[00:25:58] And it's like, I don't know if that's, don't know, that's it man. Like, I don't know, you know? Um, like there's like, there's, there's, it's, we're here, you know? Again, like the 30, 78 to 20 20, 2 of it all, like there's, it's like 50 years of room, at least in one of those interchanges. So it's, you know, like sure.

[00:26:27] uh, but also to, to, to your point, like play is so retrograde through most of the book, but also it's like no actual quote, unquote, unquote star wars, sequel, prequel, whatever has layer, like pick up a lightsaber and get into a fight with Vader.

[00:26:47] Jonny: true.

[00:26:48] Michael: Like

[00:26:48] Josh: Yeah, that's very

[00:26:50] good point.

[00:26:50] Michael: out of its way to be like, layer is not for sensitive.

[00:26:53] She's just a lady. She's just a stupid girl. But also like she gets, she like cuts Vader's mask open with like the lightsaber and gets like a raw moment. Like it's sick.

[00:27:04] Like there's.

[00:27:05] Jonny: has a, she has like a, almost like a longer and better dual with Vader then Luke does,

[00:27:10] Michael: Yeah, she gets, she gets the force awakens fight, basically like flipped, right? Like it, it is again like a weird roadmap in that way, but it, it it's, it is. Yeah. It's strange. Like at the same, the same book also has like, going to be the force person. Just girl. Obiwan don't worry about it. It's just girl.

[00:27:30] It's Hollis. Just like, if we just got to like a girl will be won? I don't know. We'll figure that out. It's fine.

[00:27:38] Jonny: she's like a little kookier, but that's about it.

[00:27:41] Michael: That's it like.

[00:27:42] Jonny: Even the comic, she looks like a female Obi wan Kenobi, which is funny. I'm about the natives too. I meant also, uh, I found it interesting at the, at the end part of the book where they get ambushed by the, uh, the natives that are in the caves.

[00:27:57] And like, think they just like straight up like murder, like half of them. And then like one's running the way and, and lay, I was like, I'm going to fucking kill you with my ex. then like, she almost gets away with it. And then you find out that they're the good guys, which you kind of see coming from a mile away.

[00:28:12] And then the natives are like, yeah, we're totally fine with you killing all of our friends. It's totally cool. We're cool with death here. And it's like, what the hell? So it's like, so in the way, they sanitized that because like, oh, they're natives, they don't matter. They're not real people,

[00:28:26] Josh: right. Yeah.

[00:28:27] Jonny: it's like,

[00:28:28] Yeah. It's like, oh,

[00:28:30] Michael: something like, uh, I'm not literally, cause I'm going to be paraphrasing, but the it's like they're primitives. They have a more rudimentary understanding of death. They don't care. They don't care that you killed four other guys

[00:28:40] Josh: Right.

[00:28:41] Jonny: it's like,

[00:28:41] Michael: all right, cool.

[00:28:42] Let's just get to the next scene. Let's

[00:28:44] Jonny: Yeah.

[00:28:45] Michael: the same set with a table on it. Great. Let's get there. Like it just, like you said, Joshua feels like a doctor who cave for like cool. We got, we got the one cave. We are using the hell out of it this week.

[00:28:56] Jonny: even the monster is that they describe are kind of like, I think purposefully a morphous so

[00:29:01] Michael: Oh, yeah.

[00:29:02] Jonny: the budget is, they can design the creature to that. So if he's like, and the, and the lake, they get attacked by this I can't quite describe it very well. It's like a blob sort of

[00:29:15] thing.

[00:29:15] Michael: like

[00:29:16] Jonny: Yeah,

[00:29:17] Michael: to do. Optical printing effects. Don't

[00:29:19] Jonny: exactly. Yeah.

[00:29:22] Josh: Yeah. And it was definitely, uh, a six parter of doctor who, uh, that only really had like three

[00:29:28] episodes worth. Yeah. Yeah. Where

[00:29:31] Michael: into episode sex?

[00:29:33] Josh: yes.

[00:29:33] Michael: four and five or just people sitting in rooms? Like it just, it has that extreme part pacing.

[00:29:39] Yes.

[00:29:40] Josh: a lot of, captures and escapes. And there's a lot of, um, we spend a lot of time in, in that cave man,

[00:29:48] Jonny: I

[00:29:48] thought they visually could have been cool with the glowing Moss and all that

[00:29:51] stuff. And that could have been neat.

[00:29:53] Michael: What's cool

[00:29:54] too, is you can see the budget.

[00:29:56] You can like read the budget in terms of like, okay, they go to the Imperial thing, that's this reused temple. So we can shoot all those scenes and they blow up Imperial base when they're running out. And then they go to this temple. That looks just the same, but it's dirty and covered in Moss.

[00:30:12] Jonny: Um,

[00:30:12] Michael: you can see, like it's, one of those things I really enjoy about splinter where it's like, you can see the budget of this idea. It truly feels like this weirdly practical, next thing. And start like, it just, it's so bizarre. It's this weird artifact.

[00:30:32] Josh: The more I imagine what the film version of this would have looked like the more I kind of wish it existed.

[00:30:38] Michael: Well, the scary thing is, I mean, when you were talking earlier about they could, they could have shot it. Like now in the age of like ultra deep fakes, they could just make this thing, like that's

[00:30:47] Josh: they could,

[00:30:47] Michael: part is they could just like,

[00:30:49] make it, like don't, don't do it, but

[00:30:53] Jonny: please don't do it.

[00:30:54] Michael: please don't,

[00:30:55] Josh: what sucks though, is that. Is that if they were to make it now, if somebody were to make it now,

[00:31:00] Michael: Hmm.

[00:31:00] Josh: like, like it would lack all of the charm, the interesting things that, that I think would be cool what that movie would have been like,

[00:31:10] Michael: Yeah, it wouldn't be shot on video. Like yeah. Like all of

[00:31:13] Jonny: low budget grittiness of

[00:31:14] it.

[00:31:15] Josh: Like, when I say that I wish that this movie existed. I mean, the very budgetary constrained one shot with the, like 1979 technology. Like, I want to see that rendering of this story on screen, not the like, we need more content, how much do you need? like it doesn't matter. Here's a check you fill in the amount.

[00:31:37] Michael: you just got to do six episodes. We don't give a shit what's in them. It's fine. Um, no, I th I, I

[00:31:43] agree with You Josh. Like, I wish, I wish that when, like the novel fell through that hole in time, I was talking about like a laser disc came with it. Right.

[00:31:51] Like, I wish, I wish we got like, or like the VHS, like clattered out of the hole to like we should, we got to like, watch it. Right.

[00:31:59] Like I I'm. So with you on that, like special quality version of

[00:32:04] Josh: I was going to say, I mean, like you kind of get a glimpse of what it would have been like, , with the holiday special. I don't know that it would have been shot on video. it probably would have been shot on film. but like the way the holiday special uses, the props and the costumes that were left over, I don't know that we've ever really seen

[00:32:22] the low version of

[00:32:26] what a film in this universe would look like. I mean, George Lucas has, I would probably say you saw, like that was star wars.

[00:32:32] Jonny: well,

[00:32:33] Michael: one.

[00:32:33] Jonny: I

[00:32:33] Josh: Yeah.

[00:32:34] Jonny: movies are that, you know,

[00:32:36] Michael: Yeah.

[00:32:37] Josh: Yeah. Well, yeah. Well, that's true. Yeah.

[00:32:39] Jonny: Can I have the same sort of, like, it looks kind of like star wars and it's all shot in like the, you know, Northern California, like

[00:32:45] right directly cause his backyard. if you look really hard, you can see like Francis Ford Coppola drinking wine and like a hill in the background.

[00:32:51] I'm making that up. I have no idea.

[00:32:53] I Had a question

[00:32:54] though, cause in my head I'm thinking like, okay, this is supposed to be a movie. So you have some, uh, two new characters basically highlight in the Imperial. And in my head, like I was trying to picture like who the Imperial would be and like powers booth just kept coming into my head

[00:33:10] Josh: Yeah, I like that.

[00:33:12] Yeah. You're right

[00:33:12] Jonny: scary guy with a mustache.

[00:33:14] He was really gruff. It's like powers booth, 1970s powers booth. Fuck. Yeah.

[00:33:18] Josh: though. You kind of, was he like a little buffoonish?

[00:33:21] Jonny: he, they, they started off making him intimidating and I think to make the other bad guys have more intimidate. They made them scarier than him. So he was afraid of his superiors, but he was a complete monster to his, uh, the people that were, uh, below him. Um, yeah. So yeah, they made him like more of a buffoon when he's talking to the governor.

[00:33:44] And then when he's talking to Vader, he's like basically like scared shitless, I think, or vice versa.

[00:33:51] Josh: Speaking of Vader, one thing that I did, like obviously the characterization doesn't comport at all with the Vader that we would come to know. Um,

[00:34:01] Michael: is not the head of the Skywalker saga. He's

[00:34:05] Josh: no, no.

[00:34:06] Michael: like it's just a guy. What is also before I forget again, like going, I didn't realize until you said this came out of pre the movie coming out, but in the book reading it, it took me, I had to reread this paragraph four or five times.

[00:34:21] Cause they described Vader's lightsaber as also being blue, which is a thing I remember from like the first cut of star wars. And they changed it because it like doesn't, it looks confusing. Right.

[00:34:31] Josh: You're right?

[00:34:32] Yeah,

[00:34:32] Michael: lightsabers had blue beams originally. I just reading that, it clicked in my head of like, whoa, this is so far back.

[00:34:40] Like it, it it's it's this it, yeah. Anyway, sorry.

[00:34:45] Josh: no, I mean, that's a good point. I don't know that, that even registered with me,

[00:34:49] Jonny: registered with me when I read it, because, because as Michael said, I, I re-read that I was like, wait, whose lightsaber are they talking about? And it's like, they're talking about Vaders. And then in my head, I was like, I'm not sure if this guy is a star wars or like, or maybe, maybe he saw a rough cut in the special effects, like

[00:35:04] Michael: Yeah.

[00:35:05] Jonny: yet.

[00:35:05] You know, I was like, maybe you saw like a, work print with no special effects or something. little bit of an off topic thing, but I remember my brother had, um, a return of the Jedi. Like I'm like trucker hat and back in the eighties. uh, I remember that the lightsabers were switched, um, that hat, which I think was part of some of the first posters.

[00:35:27] So Luke had a red one Vader had a blue one, not even green yet. And, uh, that was something that as a little kid, I was like, that's not right.

[00:35:37] forever. That like, that was like that image in my head

[00:35:40] Josh: oh, that's interesting you say that because, I don't know if this was like an ex post facto sort of a justification, but for an EPO facto, I should never try to speak

[00:35:48] Latin.

[00:35:48] Jonny: If the facto doctor

[00:35:52] Josh: Uh, but the, uh, the, there was an explanation that that was not a mistake that, that was intentional symbolism that, uh, Luke has a red lightsaber to, show that he has the dark side in him and maybe would be going to the dark side in this movie.

[00:36:06] And that Vader has the blue light saber to show that he perhaps has good in him But that said, though, you are correct about the blue light saber, because if you see the initial trailers for revenge of the Jedi, Luke has, blue lightsaber on the sand barge and they changed it to green because they had trouble making it stand out against the sky.

[00:36:25] Jonny: Yeah. There's probably like 15 expanded universe novels explaining why his is green, but like, it's just like, it's just like, it didn't match with the sky guys. Come on. I, on Instagram, I get things aimed at me because of algorithms and every now and then I'll see like star wars stuff that goes into that, like kind of, I don't want to say bullshit, but like, it's just like, they thought they start talking about like why the deep reasoning as to why miss window has a purple lightsaber is like Samuel Jackson just wanted a purple lightsaber guys.

[00:36:52] That's why he has it. That's why he has one. It's not because of his like level seven, come through Jedi training, you

[00:36:59] Michael: Yeah. It's not that.

[00:37:02] Josh: I love when there are decisions that are made, from very mundane, like. the green dye was closer to me than the blue that day. And like, that does kind of lend itself to some sort of logic justification

[00:37:16] Jonny: Or like Han scentless pants have like the, sometimes I have a red Stripe or a yellow Stripe and there's like, oh, this is ranking of whatever. And it's like, fuck, he's just a fucking pirate that like

[00:37:26] Michael: Dude owns two pants. Like, what do you want? Like, come on. What's it get, it goes down to like , um, disguise on tattooing is like the Jedi uniform,

[00:37:38] which doesn't make any sense. Like,

[00:37:41] I was

[00:37:41] Jonny: Owens dress as a Jetta,

[00:37:43] Michael: exactly the exactly. Just tattooing outfits. Exactly. Like if anything Luke's outfit in Jed, I returned to the Jedi should be the Jedi outfit.

[00:37:52] Right? Like they should all be in like cool black outfits with like dope triangle on it. Like if anything, right.

[00:37:59] Jonny: they almost did that with the prequels.

[00:38:01] Josh: the concept art for, the Jedi, particularly for Obi wan Kenobi for the Phantom menace, they are taking inspiration from what Luke was wearing in return of the Jedi.

[00:38:10] Jonny: they look more like ninja, like in

[00:38:12] Michael: Yes.

[00:38:13] Jonny: Yeah. And they have like, almost like samurai, like ponytails and stuff. If

[00:38:16] Josh: yeah,

[00:38:17] Michael: I have a lot of reasons to build a time machine, but I'm adding one to the list right now. And it's this it's this

[00:38:23] Jonny: me see if I could find the image while you guys talk and I'll just put it in the chat.

[00:38:26] Michael: heck. Yeah.

[00:38:27] Josh: as to what I was saying about Vader though, while again, it is a completely different character from the one that we know. Um, I thought he was portrayed pretty fearsomely. I thought that that was a very effective, sequence when he shows up and he's, he's toying with Leah

[00:38:42] Jonny: Well, even when he's dealing with Obi wan Kenobi, he has a pension for, uh, talking shit to his opponents, as he's doing it, at least from a new hope, but at least in the new hope there was that. But it makes sense in the new hope because he has an established relationship with him. So he's trying to prove something to, to Obi wan Kenobi.

[00:39:00] So can kind of see where, uh, island, Dean foster, where was coming from when you wrote the dual with Leia and Luke. I was like, yeah, I could kind of see from like the scene from a new hope how he can write him like that, there are elements of empire in there throwing the . Rocks, um,

[00:39:16] Josh: Yup.

[00:39:17] Jonny: the way he walks through a echo base, uh, and Hoff leading the troops, like he led the troops at the end of the climax of splinter of the mind's.

[00:39:25] I'm like, I could definitely see like movie Vader doing the same thing. Just kind of walking out there, not being too concerned about his own safety and just entering the.

[00:39:34] Josh: And you also gotta get the impression , that Alan Dean foster is thinks he's, he's just like a guy wearing a mask and a suit. I mean, not that like he needs the suit for surviving.

[00:39:42] Jonny: Yeah. Like,

[00:39:43] Michael: about his like grotesque breathing a few times under there. So I think he gets the, the like injured nature of the guy in there. But yeah, like you say, I don't think it's like a life-sustaining apparatus in the same way. What is really interesting me too, is that like, he takes damage,

[00:40:06] Jonny: yeah.

[00:40:07] Michael: to in the movies where like, he can just hold out his hand and like catch blaster bolts, and it's like, oh, it was due to do blasters today.

[00:40:15] Oh, you got me. but like in the, in this layer, shoots him with a sniper rifle, which is awesome. And they should sneak that into a star wars movie. I mean, come on. Uh, oh, wait, it's called rogue one. Nevermind. Um, but he just gets like a dent in his armor. And then like later in the Luke and Vader fight, he like, like caves in a section of Vader's armor.

[00:40:35] Like there's this much more, um, Like bad night kind of thing. These really feels like, I think I sent it over, but he feels like a black, like the black Knight who's just like done. I dunno. He has like a big, scary music. You, and it's weird. Like even down to when Vader first shows up in a socking to Skywalker, he's like, it took me a long time to figure out it was you who shot me the thing and the trench.

[00:41:01] And it was like, wait, what? Like, we all know that, dude. What are you talking about? Like what's known and what's not now I could just talk about that forever. I can talk about that. As long as I can talk about weird lightsaber idiosyncrasies. Honestly,

[00:41:16] Jonny: feel like if Darth Vader went home the night and turned on a space TV, there would have been like a news article like this young boy, it looks Skywalker and flipped the death star and he'd be like, oh, it's him. Like,

[00:41:26] Michael: this guy,

[00:41:27] Jonny: like, I don't think he would need spies to figure that out. I think people were kind of just, no,

[00:41:32] Josh: well, to be fair, there is a run in.

[00:41:37] Michael: Right. The Cassidy and Gillen comic,

[00:41:40] Josh: yes. the,

[00:41:41] Jonny: moment in that comics too.

[00:41:42] Josh: yeah, the moment when Vader finds out the identity of who blew up the death star, they really make a meal out of that. and the Marvel comics and it's very cool.

[00:41:52] Michael: Yeah.

[00:41:53] But that scene in the comic is so much about like, I signed my beautiful boy and my beautiful birthday boy, I can have my beautiful birthday boy bag, opposed to like in this book where Veda is just like, we could be pals cutting guys with cool swords, man. Just join me. Black is a color, the color.

[00:42:13] even try and recruit them actually like in the book, he's like, I'm going to torture you with a lightsaber and then I'm going to torture you with a lightsaber. It's just a bad guy. He's just like,

[00:42:24] Jonny: How do we also, yeah, he's totally that. And, um, it's almost like, um, there's a little bit of like the. Kylo Ren sort of messiness to Vader. Um, that's in the book as like, cause I feel like Kyla redness, like unrefined, which is like a definition of his character. And I feel, uh, Vader is just like all image in this book, you know?

[00:42:51] And yet again, that's a just reiterate, but like it kind of run. I feel like it's all about his image. So he wears a helmet for no reason. He, you know, he takes damage and he's just kinda like, eh, rough and gruff and uh, there's, uh, not a less of that Vader sort of sophistication. Like I feel like, um, he is a black Knight, but like, feel like the way that you're the you're talking about a Michael is like, he's the black night that like guards the bridge and he's like, I'm the bad guy.

[00:43:17] And then like, and I feel like he's much more of

[00:43:19] Michael: of the.

[00:43:20] Jonny: uh, like a, elevated Knight and like a fantasy sense of like, uh, mythical sort of, uh, end all be all sort of like arc angel sort of archetype. You know, if that makes any sense.

[00:43:31] Michael: Yeah. Whereas in the book he feels like,

[00:43:33] Josh: Yeah.

[00:43:33] Michael: like a gun, like a heavy like that, the end of the, after he's fallen down a hole, like is like, I can still feel his presence in the force, like the scent of sulfur. And it's like, man, this is, this is like, so camp, this is so the other direction it's it's.

[00:43:53] So like, I just love how, like old-school serially flash gordonii again, like it feels, he's just like, be back. I think I, thought we defeated him, but he'll be back next time.

[00:44:06] Like he feels like claw from inspector gadget.

[00:44:09] Jonny: Yes. Yes, exactly. And

[00:44:10] Michael: Ah,

[00:44:11] Jonny: uh, to, uh, Josh about this, uh, the other night and I was saying how, like, I thought it was hysterical, how falls down the hole and kind of like an Austin Powers movie, Luke looks over the hole and he's like, he's still alive.

[00:44:25] Okay, cool. And like, it just kind of goes on. Yeah. It's like,

[00:44:29] Michael: He's in the whole, I don't know.

[00:44:31] Jonny: it's like, I guess it's one of those things

[00:44:33] Josh: I mean, it's

[00:44:33] a deep hole to be fair.

[00:44:36] Jonny: I don't know, like an, a new hope Vader gets hit with the, in the tie fighter and seem spin out. like the, the movie kind of shows you that he's still alive, but there's no, there's nothing invaders spinning out.

[00:44:47] That makes me think that he would have died anyway. But I guess using the same sort of logic there, like, I guess we have to just announce to the audience at all times that he's still alive, unless we explicitly say So it kinda takes like any sort of surprise out of him coming back in like the second sequel, you know, which would have been much more better if he just like, was like, oh, he survived the whole, instead of them like announcing it.

[00:45:12] I don't know.

[00:45:12] Michael: But it's the opposite impulse to what, like the what's what you're talking about there. Cause this one is like, don't worry. All the toys are still on the shelf for next adventure.

[00:45:24] Jonny: Yes.

[00:45:25] Michael: fine. He's going to get a shiny new suit. it's it's about, like I was saying, like the toys on the shelf thing of

[00:45:33] Jonny: Yeah.

[00:45:34] Michael: just how you left them.

[00:45:35] And at the end, they're just how you left them.

[00:45:39] Josh: Yeah, well, that, that is very much, this is the next episode, like of this series, serial, whatever you want to call it. you know, it's funny, you're just making me think sort of robs the surprise of Veda returning in like the second cul. but Michael it's kinda like season eight, the master, the Roger Delgado master, where he's the villain in every story,

[00:45:59] to go back to Dr.

[00:45:59] Who, and it's kind of like, you know, at a certain point, you know, he's going to come back because he was in the last four episodes is probably going to be in the next one.

[00:46:07] Michael: I tried to hold back my doctor references because I do a doctor who podcast, and I'm

[00:46:11] Josh: no, that's okay.

[00:46:12] Michael: on your show enough,

[00:46:13] Josh: it's okay. You can release the brake on that. Cause I'm here

[00:46:15] for it.

[00:46:15] Michael: great. Um, the, uh, the Vader in this book feels like the Anthony Ainley

[00:46:21] Josh: They have the Ainley master.

[00:46:22] Yeah.

[00:46:23] Michael: up and they're like, you died. And he's like, I lived and it's like, that's it.

[00:46:26] That's all you get, like,

[00:46:28] Josh: Yeah.

[00:46:29] Michael: lost your hands a bit. That's the explanation. Like I survived. Gotcha baby. Like, that's it. That's all you got

[00:46:36] Josh: But there is kind of, so, but that said like, look, I mean, obviously uh, we're poking fun at it, but like that is a

[00:46:41] valid interpretation. Yes, yes, yes. I mean, not even having seen star wars, like that is a valid understanding of how the series is going to work.

[00:46:49] Michael: Yeah. If you read the overarching material at the time, Alan Dean foster started this novel was like 10%, the star wars we got. Right? So like conception of star wars is just, I know, I feel like I've said this a thousand times now. It's just so radically different as a result. And

[00:47:09] Jonny: yeah. And it's not necessarily like, uh, uh, inherently wrong. It's like, what else can this guy in differ from the very little information that he got at the time,

[00:47:19] you know?

[00:47:20] Michael: early. He's the second thing. He can't be wrong. Like let, like, literally like everything else after that. No, that was, that's not how we want to go with it, but it's like, he can't, I'm sorry, like he can't be wrong. He sees item to

[00:47:34] look

[00:47:34] at, so, that's, what's cool.

[00:47:36] Josh: So, you know, what's so interesting about that. recently, secrets of the forest and unauthorized oral history of star wars by Edward Gross and mark Altman

[00:47:45] Michael: Oh, I love those guys.

[00:47:46] Josh: yeah, and they, have some, fascinating new interviews like a new interview with Alan Dean foster, where he says that, he didn't like the empire strikes back.

[00:47:57] He hated that Vader was Luke's father. And he said that he felt that the prequels existed solely to justify that twist. he was really not into where the series went subsequently, And after you said what you just said, like, I could see, like, he, felt some. ownership, some understanding of like what this whole thing was supposed to be.

[00:48:23] Michael: Didn't he write like terrible episode nine patch

[00:48:28] Josh: yes,

[00:48:28] Michael: in this equal era, like

[00:48:30] Josh: he did.

[00:48:31] Michael: just, fully bad,

[00:48:32] like,

[00:48:33] woo.

[00:48:34] Josh: did.

[00:48:34] Michael: It was crazy. It was like the Borg basically

[00:48:37] like some very weird stuff.

[00:48:40] Josh: the one thing I remember was that, Ray is revealed to be like a droid or

[00:48:46] Michael: That's what it is. Yeah. She's like, uh, she's a, uh, feeling droid that can connect to the force, which

[00:48:51] is so crazy.

[00:48:53] Jonny: put some blade runner in there, I guess.

[00:48:55] Michael: it's not crazy than George Lucas has planned for episode seven, which was, they were going to shrink down and go into the force and meet the medical Koreans who were

[00:49:02] people

[00:49:02] Josh: if that was literally his, his

[00:49:04] pitch. I

[00:49:05] don't

[00:49:05] know.

[00:49:05] Michael: uh, I've heard it more than once.

[00:49:07] I'm like, it feels like it, wasn't not as fed.

[00:49:10] Josh: I don't know. Well, that's a whole

[00:49:12] other episode.

[00:49:13] Michael: other star wars. You know what I mean? Like I just want to, I want to go to like the gallery of parallel star wars.

[00:49:17] Jonny: Well,

[00:49:18] Michael: there.

[00:49:18] Josh: me too, man.

[00:49:19] Jonny: now that you mentioned the sequels, I think there's there's, um, it might not be the same exact relationship, but I feel like there's some odd similarity with like, somebody is writing this SQL with as little information as they possibly can, uh, to make it as interesting as it possibly can.

[00:49:35] And then

[00:49:36] Josh: Except they made

[00:49:37] it.

[00:49:37] Jonny: at different. Yeah. So like, so I feel like. With the force awakens, uh, Ryan Johnson and JJ Abrams, like I think he was trying to write episode eight while they were shooting episode seven. And they would have talks about what they were doing, but you can, but it's very clear that like, um, they weren't in sync with what they like.

[00:49:58] It's like, so I think that they, I think even mark Hamill was talking about how at the end of like episode seven, um, he, they thought they're going to have like an image of like floating rocks around him and stuff like that to show how powerful he was, but it didn't do it. So there was still, they were still unclear as to where they were going to be.

[00:50:16] Then Ryan Johnson does his thing and which is totally different. And then JJ sees it and

[00:50:23] Michael: me call him, Trevor are released as the book of Henry And is promptly fired. Uh, and that.

[00:50:28] Jonny: it's like it, but it's just one of those things where it's like, uh, Uh, like a disconnect as to like who the people telling the stories and trends and like playing hot potato with the story and then having like different ideas of where it should have gone.

[00:50:42] Josh: accept, the example you just used, they both had like 40 years of star wars to rely on to create some like unifying it's like, I

[00:50:51] mean,

[00:50:51] Jonny: not exactly one-to-one but

[00:50:52] there's definitely like a similarity with the hot potato thing.

[00:50:55] Josh: Yeah, for sure. But the interesting thing there though, is that they're just two flavors of star wars that are reaching for this, um, platonic kind of star wars vibe. And, what, one filmmaker latches onto is like, not exactly what the other filmmaker latches on to they don't necessarily contradict each other.

[00:51:18] Jonny: No, but, but, uh, but it's one of those things where, uh, the direction was definitely heading one way and then it was kind of taken another way and then it went back to the original way, or at least, and it's just like, you, you, you can see the zigzag happening in real time, you know,

[00:51:35] Michael: Hmm.

[00:51:35] Jonny: um, which

[00:51:36] Josh: yeah,

[00:51:36] Jonny: it kind of more interesting because they both should have had, uh, more conversations about that

[00:51:43] while they're

[00:51:43] Josh: well, no, I disagree. to the extent that I contend the SQL trilogy would have, worked out totally fine in the end. Had the third film had a, a

[00:51:55] Jonny: third different director.

[00:51:57] Yeah,

[00:51:57] I agree.

[00:51:58] Michael: even

[00:51:58] Josh: uh,

[00:51:58] Michael: the shooting script of duel, the fates

[00:52:00] proves that right.

[00:52:01] Jonny: yeah, the Collin trap, no script is like that. That would have it would've fit somehow

[00:52:06] with that trilogy.

[00:52:07] Josh: totally setting aside quality for the sole reason that, that our third director would have had to work with the two films that were already made and figured out how to synthesize a satisfying conclusion to the story that they were laying out.

[00:52:22] So on, no matter who it was, if it were contractor or somebody else, the only problem is when you go back to the creative voice of the first one, because then what happens is I'm not saying that this is anyone's fault. It's just how, creativity works and

[00:52:36] how like the voices work like that.

[00:52:38] Jonny: have like a one, one black sheep of that three. Like the weird, weird sandwich.

[00:52:43] Josh: Yeah. so then all of a sudden you have middle movie kind of feeling like an anomaly and the third one, trying to reconnect with an idea that was sort of deviated from,

[00:52:54] Michael: this is just bringing back the guy out at seven to do nine. You building in like a narrative of quote unquote correction, or like

[00:53:03] Josh: Right. Yes, yes.

[00:53:05] Michael: bake in the perception of a subtext, right?

[00:53:09] Josh: Right, right. Yeah.

[00:53:12] Jonny: there's baggage that goes with it.

[00:53:14] Josh: Yeah. So in an actuality, I totally understand the thought process. It's like, okay, we already, for whatever reason, calling Trevor or left, I don't know that we'll ever know exactly why that happened.

[00:53:24] Michael: They saw the book of Henry. I

[00:53:25] Josh: I don't. I,

[00:53:27] I, I mean, I don't know.

[00:53:29] Michael: is literally the week had like it's the weekend, the week after, like it's not,

[00:53:34] it's not rocket surgery.

[00:53:35] Josh: well, but the point is you have, you have a release date, locked in, you're running out of time. You've already used all this development time. You need a director to jump in, who can, who can make a movie who can like pop onto a moving train? the idea that you would go to someone, you already have a rapport with you already trust, you already know can do it.

[00:53:53] I totally understand from like a real world practical standpoint, why that, makes a lot sense to do. we're, we're re.

[00:54:01] Jonny: that the, uh, the monkey wrench was probably the bigger monkey, which is probably Carrie Fisher passing away unexpectedly. And

[00:54:07] Josh: Well, yeah.

[00:54:08] Jonny: could not come up with a consensus as to what to do with, with

[00:54:12] Josh: Yeah.

[00:54:13] Jonny: event. Cause I feel like even with, with like the, the, the Henry movie, if that bombs, that's sort of like, maybe they'll have like a tighter leash on him, but I'm not sure if they want to go through the hassle of getting another director.

[00:54:25] Like as long as he wasn't showing up to drunk, showing up to set drunk and punching people in the face, he'd probably be able to work with them.

[00:54:31] Michael: Yeah. I mean, there is.

[00:54:33] Jonny: like fail upwards. So I feel like it would be like fine with him. Not that he was a bad filmmaker, but you know, I'm trying to say. if they'd made splinter of the mind's eye, what was it? 1978 or 79. Who do you think would have directed it back? That John Carpenter. And I was thinking,

[00:54:45] I was thinking a similar thing. You've been right off of Halloween,

[00:54:48] Michael: just cause it's before, if they could just like just get them in an intersection. Cause they're in the same neck of the woods, they could've got Ridley Scott like pre

[00:54:57] Jonny: Ooh, he would done it instead of it. Cause alien came out in 79. They'd probably, he probably would've gotten.

[00:55:03] Josh: Ridley Scott had just made the doulas, which I

[00:55:06] Michael: Hm.

[00:55:06] Josh: was his first movie. I

[00:55:08] Jonny: Yes, it was, it was this first feature film,

[00:55:10] Josh: which I believe came out in 77,

[00:55:12] Jonny: I think. So it's a fantastic movie. If you haven't

[00:55:14] seen it, it's really good.

[00:55:15] Michael: over here. Frantically wicking. I have no idea.

[00:55:17] Jonny: It's so good.

[00:55:19] Josh: like, so many other directors, he goes and sees star wars in 1977 and he comes out and he was like, fuck, what the fuck am I doing? Like,

[00:55:26] Michael: Hm.

[00:55:27] Josh: I'm out here, making, period pieces and this fucking guy is doing star wars. like I need to get with the program and the next movie he does, he makes alien and then he makes blade runner.

[00:55:35] Right.

[00:55:36] Jonny: And also aliens are low budget B movie sort of thing, and

[00:55:40] he's like, I can make this good. And they totally would have done that with.

[00:55:44] Josh: So, Michael, I think you're, I think you're onto something like, he, he,

[00:55:47] he would have been,

[00:55:47] Michael: S he saw star wars. He poached the team from dune when that collapsed and he made alien, like,

[00:55:54] Josh: that's a great, yeah, that's a great documentary, by the way, everyone should check that out.

[00:55:58] It's

[00:55:58] fucking sick.

[00:55:58] Michael: product when Quain cash add. Um,

[00:56:01] Jonny: star wars. That would have been so cool.

[00:56:04] Michael: yeah. Right. Like the timing it's

[00:56:06] Jonny: And that

[00:56:07] Michael: I mean, Kershner is an awesome get don't get me

[00:56:09] Jonny: oh yeah, yeah. But I think Ridley Scott would've made like the, like, seeing like, you know, alien and blade runner and legend, he would have made fantastic sets, whether it'd be the cave or the temple where they get the crystal

[00:56:23] Josh: Totally. Yeah.

[00:56:24] Jonny: a total like like reference of like where the statue and the temples are.

[00:56:29] Like he would have been all about that shit.

[00:56:31] Like he, he,

[00:56:32] would have made a really fucking cool.

[00:56:34] Michael: killer, like just

[00:56:36] transpose that cast, like it's.

[00:56:38] Josh: and do you know, what's so interesting about that. So, so in this kind of, counterfactual that we're talking about, like in this timeline, I feel like really Scott would have made. Uh, way better movie than anyone was expecting and may have like rejuvenated franchise.

[00:56:54] Right.

[00:56:55] Um, so in this scenario, star wars, wasn't a smash hit and, you know, George Lucas is just like, trying to get some more money out of the costumes and props So he would have probably been fine to let some guy who was like, I really have an idea for this and I'm really going to do a job.

[00:57:10] just like, let me do my thing and you can trust, like he probably wouldn't have been so like micromanaging, the way that

[00:57:16] he

[00:57:16] Michael: Scott's Ridley grams, the little drawings he does. He was just taking Lucas through a book of those and looks at it, be like, all right, I've seen the movie go.

[00:57:23] Jonny: He storyboards like everything and he's really he's are fantastic artists. Like he's a

[00:57:27] Josh: should do now, I really wish this really existed.

[00:57:31] Michael: I sorry. You're well, I don't even know.

[00:57:36] Jonny: God

[00:57:37] Josh: Um,

[00:57:38] Michael: It's weird.

[00:57:39] Josh: one last thing I want to touch on before we wrap up, the interesting implications of this regarding canonicity because again, like I sort of alluded to in the beginning, not only is this the first sequel to star wars, it's also the very first expanded universe material to be contradicted,

[00:57:57] Michael: It's like double, extra legends. Yeah.

[00:58:00] Josh: Right. I think fandoms relationship too, like to Canon is, to me, a source of somewhat endless fascination. Like, I don't understand there's this obsession with what happened versus what didn't happen, because like none of it happened. I mean, I guess I don't really have a question, but,

[00:58:22] Michael: I mean, it's about, it's about the investment of time. People want their investment of time to have counted. So they want the things to have counted. Like I made a joke earlier about Sony, so I'll just, I'll just say it. I, I worked for Sony as a social media person, and I can tell you from having like working on the social media for Spider-Man movies, People will take shit in the background of a trailer and construct an entire universe has nothing to do with what the actual people making the actual movies have to do with any of it.

[00:58:50] Right? Like it, like, it's all a splinter of the mind's eye whistling this fully look into the distance. I don't know, like, uh, yeah.

[00:58:58] Josh: episode, title,

[00:58:59] Jonny: there you go.

[00:59:02] Josh: forget it, Jake. It's all a splinter in the mind's eye.

[00:59:05] Michael: Oh, wow.

[00:59:08] Jonny: I even said it in the beginning of this conversation that, um, I think one of the reasons why I didn't reach spun through the mind's eyes, because I knew that it was just like this thing that didn't count. And I didn't even care that much about the EU, you know, like I've read a couple of his novels because like, I like star wars.

[00:59:24] I need to get a fix, you know? But like I, on top of that, like I just heard that like, the relationships were like, oh yeah, like Luca and Leah, like might love each other. And, uh, all these things. And I was like, sounded so far removed from what I knew as star wars, I was like, ah, I'll just put it to the side.

[00:59:43] Uh, that being said, though, it comes to Canon, like to me, it's like, in the movie theater.

[00:59:48] , that, to me, that is it. So for many, many, many years Boba fit was in the comics and in the novels and stuff like that. And Hey, we all love Boba Fett, but I was like, yeah, but I mean like he's dead.

[01:00:01] Michael: Yeah.

[01:00:01] Jonny: Is this like one of those things like, oh, like I, and this new uh, you know, Boba Fett sends his kid to college and blah, blah, blah. I'm making this up. And then it's like, and this is like, yeah. Yeah. But you know, like he, he died in the star, like burped

[01:00:13] and

[01:00:14] Michael: fell in a

[01:00:14] hole who

[01:00:15] Jonny: It's like, it's like the star wars anywhere to turn the Jedi.

[01:00:19] And I, and I liked all the other stuff is like a fun thing, which is what it is, but I never took it as like sacrosanct. Like I never took it as like, uh, we were referring to star wars is like coming down from the mountain before, like I never took it as like, uh, the

[01:00:34] Josh: Yeah,

[01:00:35] Jonny: it was under movie theater.

[01:00:36] In which case I'm like, this is what they really want us to know and think. And then

[01:00:39] Josh: right. Well,

[01:00:40] Jonny: that's the story.

[01:00:42] Josh: I said this on some podcasts. I don't know if it was for the show or in what order, at some point before recording this, I said something to the effect of, I think star wars is kind of. inseparable from the medium of film, because it's not an idea that was adapted into a film, like it was conceived of as a cinematic experience.

[01:01:03] And I think that, there's something to be said for whatever medium originates, the, lack of a better word property or, or

[01:01:13] Jonny: Sure

[01:01:14] Josh: there's something about that medium that is, sort of has an authoritative weight, right? So like, while there are examples, like, you could say game of Thrones, arguably the success, the, the cultural impact of the show, you know, in some ways, it's really an argument superseded

[01:01:32] the

[01:01:33] Jonny: worms speaker had.

[01:01:34] Josh: the idea that, true quote unquote of Thrones fans are still waiting to find out what happens.

[01:01:39] Right,

[01:01:39] right. Like,

[01:01:40] Jonny: there's a book first.

[01:01:41] Josh: right. I first discovered splinter of the mind's eye. I was in fifth grade in my elementary school, and I was going through the bookshelf in my classroom. And they had all these, you know, dusty, old, books or whatever. And this was like the early nineties. So, so there were still things on the shelf from.

[01:01:59] 15 years ago. Right. And I came across a star wars book that I had never heard of before. And I was like, what the fuck is this? I dunno if I said fucking my fifth grade mind, I, very well may have. I don't quite recall

[01:02:11] Jonny: I did.

[01:02:12] Josh: I learned to express myself so colorfully, but, uh, and I read it and I was crushingly disappointed, because it was very boring at least.

[01:02:19] I mean, that's my memory of it. cause like I had just read the thrawn trilogy and then I discover this new thing. it's like immediately made sense to me why I'd never heard of this. because, I mean, number one, like you said, John, it, quote unquote didn't count. And number two, like if it were good, then people would have remembered it.

[01:02:37] Like I would have heard of it. Right.

[01:02:40] Jonny: Yeah, no one told me to read it. Everyone. I think I remember hearing people say that it wasn't that good, but then again, like we're talking about the opinions of like 14 year olds. So like, so what does that mean? I don't know. As a 39 year old reading it, I don't, I didn't even think it was the worst book I've ever read in my life, but,

[01:02:57] Josh: No, not at all.

[01:02:58] Jonny: know, it just definitely was like a vibe.

[01:03:00] And I think that, like, we, I wanted like

[01:03:04] Josh: Um,

[01:03:06] Jonny: star wars and to read that book is very much like, we were saying about before, like low budget made for TV, like make-believe almost like fan fiction in a weird way. So,

[01:03:16] uh,

[01:03:17] Michael: a 200 page Ballantine paperback. It's not some prestige.

[01:03:20] It didn't even have a hard back. Like it's not,

[01:03:23] it doesn't have that. Like, as opposed to the two of you, I went and sought, this thing out because the way I nerd out about stuff as a nerd out about the weird corners, like it's like another, like doctor who again, sorry, slash you're welcome.

[01:03:41] Uh, but like the audio dramas, the books, all of that stuff. Doesn't count. still enjoy it. Like some of my favorite doctors were never on television. Right? Like their audio guys,

[01:03:52] Josh: one of my favorite, , star wars, expanded universe things, I forget what they called it, but, um, there was a comic series where they basically, did like non Canon, like what if stories?

[01:04:04] Michael: Infinities. I loved

[01:04:07] Jonny: Like what if, what if Luke froze to death and empire and Leah had to pick up the mantle and stuff like that. Yay.

[01:04:15] Josh: Like there is something, I'm super intrigued by like, like in the roads not taken or like, you were saying, Michael, the. parallel universe, the forks in the road, like how this could have gone. and in that sense, like that's, the enjoyment that I get out of quote, unquote, expanded universe material, not dislike transmedia storytelling where like it all counts, but some of it, you kind of know in the back of your mind actually doesn't count.

[01:04:42] And like, I mean, it does all come back to what you said, Michael. I think you hit the nail on the head. it comes back to people don't want to feel like they're wasting their time. So you have to kind of, make sure that you make a point to say like, no, no, no.

[01:04:55] Like these, these count, these.

[01:04:58] Michael: If like, say like, if, for example, you were to make a series of random disconnected movies that all claim that they will one day bump into, say for example, Spiderman. And there was like, no plan for that to actually happen. People would lose their fucking shit. You know what I mean? Like the amount of time they've put into these, like other movies, people would lose their fucking

[01:05:22] minds,

[01:05:22] Jonny: I feel like the inverse of that is Cloverfield where like the day they've released, it's like, eh, it's a Cloverfield movie. And people were like, can you just like, we know it's not a Cloverfield movie. Well Mo more or less,

[01:05:35] It's just like, I think splinter of the mind's eye is a interesting experiment in cannon and, um, what we expect out of the things that, um, maybe the things that we love, but also like what has been established beforehand, you know? And I don't know, I feel like we could do a whole other podcast about like, what we consider cannon is and how we defined.

[01:05:59] Like, like I earlier I said like, oh, well, for the longest time, I was like, Boba Fett is dead because the movie said, so why, why do I think that? And why am I okay with like other things and not that. And you know, or like, I dunno, I just feel like, there's a, fine line to walk for something that's not the original source material to make it feel like it is that.

[01:06:20] And, um, to find that, to hit that. Is almost impossible, So why do some things succeed more than others?

[01:06:27] Michael: Yeah, why don't I care about golf, Chewbacca. I just can't do it. Why don't I care at all about that guy. just don't give a shit.

[01:06:36] Josh: my thing is always like if it's good, then continuity doesn't matter. Right.

[01:06:41] Michael: Yes.

[01:06:42] Josh: yet feel like. There's a certain Stripe of fan that I think a higher, importance upon and, at hearing the Canon, for which, you know, violation of Canon matters much more than the underlying quality

[01:06:59] Michael: They wouldn't even give the story. A chance

[01:07:02] is, is the, is the, brutal thing now is like that, frankly like disease has turned has like gone that rampant.

[01:07:10] Josh: you know, for example, I'm sorry. both the empire strikes back and return to the Jedi completely obliterated. What, the like continuity of star wars was like, in Vader was not Luke's father. Until the empire strikes back, like, you go back and you look at the original star wars.

[01:07:28] Like that is not that character is like. I'm sorry, it's just not. And go to return of the Jedi. Oh, Leah is Luke's sister. Well, you go back and watch the empire strikes back and star wars. they would not have had all those very close, romantic, encounters. If that was always the story.

[01:07:45] And the reason why I'm saying this, not as an indictment of those two movies far from it. It's saying that you are allowed to, deviate from what is established. if the idea of. Is good if it's good and it works, then who cares?

[01:07:59] Michael: Yeah.

[01:08:01] grant Morrison's new. X-Men wasn't a problem until grant Morrison left the book, right? Like, and if you don't know that book like issue on of grant Morrison's new X-Men is like humankind has five years to live and then it's all mute. Fuck off that's the book. And it's just like, wait, that doesn't, you can't do that.

[01:08:17] What are you doing? Like everybody else in the Marvel office is like their head's on fire running around, like, what's he done? Or what's the, what are they doing rather now? But, uh, um, and then by the end of that book, like turns Manhattan into a concentration camp. Like just not a very compatible book with continuity.

[01:08:37] Right?

[01:08:37] Jonny: in Marvel. Yeah.

[01:08:38] Michael: it's just not like, there was no, nobody cared because it was good. that's like w w yeah. So it doesn't matter. Right? It's

[01:08:48] Josh: yeah,

[01:08:49] Jonny: sometimes it's easier to be like, okay, this was a movie first. therefore, anything that comes after that video game book comic doesn't really count unless they make another movie, but sometimes movies.

[01:09:01] Retcon their own. I mean, you're talking about empire and Jedi, but I mean, like, they literally retcon their own shit. Like, uh, you know, Halloween has like a million movies and like, you know, 40 something years later, they're like, oh, we're going to make the actual SQL the Halloween, all the other ones didn't happen,

[01:09:17] Michael: Godzilla's like that there are a dozen movies that are sequels to only the first Godzilla, right?

[01:09:23] Like,

[01:09:23] Jonny: movies are like that too, where it's like,

[01:09:25] oh, only w going back to

[01:09:27] Josh: return.

[01:09:28] Jonny: yeah. Superman returns. And even then Superman returns was like, kind of like throwing away with a new DCU, whatever. it's like,

[01:09:35] Michael: Yeah.

[01:09:36] Jonny: know, it's interesting, like, you know, you see these things and like, you know, you watch like the alien movies and then you have alien vs. Predator to movies. it's like, everyone kind of understood this isn't real.

[01:09:49] Like I'm in the movie theater and I'm watching this movie, but this movie isn't happening, even though I'm watching it. then when you watch Promethease and alien. We all understood. No matter what I think about this movie, good or bad, this is happening. This is real. it's like, what is that? You know, alien

[01:10:07] Michael: Um,

[01:10:07] Jonny: Predator, not real permutation, covenant real. Maybe it's because it's Ridley Scott and he made the first movie. I

[01:10:13] probably just

[01:10:13] Michael: it's it is, yeah.

[01:10:16] It's author, but yeah.

[01:10:17] Josh: yeah, well, so that's actually something, I was going to say it like the one argument that I do have some, some sympathy for particularly when it comes to star wars is, the stuff George Lucas did, you know, is his quote unquote Canon like

[01:10:31] that, that,

[01:10:32] Michael: G cannon.

[01:10:33] Josh: yeah.

[01:10:33] not just the idea that like, oh, he invented it. So therefore, like this counts it is also the idea that there's like a unifying, cohesion to the concerns, the characterizations, like, you know, where the story goes, it's all through the lens of this one, man.

[01:10:46] So, so even if does change and evolve, like it's still the animating concerns and the sensibilities are the same. So you can, like, see what he was doing. There's a YouTuber, a star wars, YouTube, or star wars theory. That is like, I think the embodiment of that, like he's, he's all in on George Lucas, star wars.

[01:11:02] And the interesting thing about him is that The prequels were his star wars movies that he grew up

[01:11:07] with.

[01:11:07] Michael: sense that he's like a pure Lucas guy,

[01:11:09] Josh: Exactly.

[01:11:10] Michael: awkward creation or tutorial, whatever,

[01:11:13] Josh: Yeah.

[01:11:14] Jonny: up with different people directing different star wars movies. So it's. Yeah, so like we, we, we, we like variety.

[01:11:20] Josh: so for the star wars theory guy, the Disney trilogy was the first time he had trouble, with new star wars movies, we already arguably had that experience where we got something that we were not expecting.

[01:11:32] Michael: there done that

[01:11:33] Josh: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:11:34] So,

[01:11:34] Michael: Fett exists. Like, I don't know

[01:11:35] Jonny: it not our first rodeo, you know,

[01:11:38] Josh: Yeah. So, but then.

[01:11:39] Jonny: are a thing, deal with it. deal with it. You know,

[01:11:46] Michael: there you go. Yeah. That's

[01:11:48] begun. This clone war has. I've done it all, man. You can't, you can't kill me. I'm already dead. Uh,

[01:11:55] Josh: closing thoughts on splinter of the mind's eye, or, or an answer to the question. What is the legacy of splinter of the mind?

[01:12:03] Jonny: I think splinter of the mind's eye is an interesting experiment as to like, Uh, contingency plan. It's just like, it's like, look where star wars could have been. It's like a sneak peek into a branch into another universe. Like what a star wars wasn't successful, you would have had splinter of the mind's eye.

[01:12:21] And, uh, I think, um, for academic reasons is I find it a very interesting, um, a novel, but, uh, outside of that, like I could take it or leave it, you know, it's just like, it's just like, it just exists in my, my mind, you know? But, um, as like something to read, if you're into star wars, I wouldn't recommend it to who have no affiliation to star wars whatsoever.

[01:12:48] Like I would only recommend it to hardcore people that just want to get this different perspective. And it's for that by itself is just very interesting on its own, you know?

[01:12:59] Josh: Yeah.

[01:12:59] Michael: Yeah, I think it in a modern context, I, I love it more than ever because it is the ultimate preconceived notion Buster, right? Like if you, if you know someone who is like obsessed with the idea that there was always some sacred plan to make like nine exact perfect saga star wars things, can hand them 200 pages of proof that they are out of their fucking gourd.

[01:13:26] it is. It's like it the book that turns me into Alex Jones about star wars. Like we got the documents, like it's proof that there was no plan, no plan. There's no great fucking set. Like it's just some guys making up shit. Like that's it. got it. It's right here. I have it. got right here.

[01:13:50] Like it's just, yeah. Like it, it, just, to me, it's relevance in a modern context, like, like you were saying, John, I would never hand this to somebody who's only like seen one or two star wars and doesn't care. It's only modern relevance is to like deep fans who need to just like a tide pod thrown into their brain.

[01:14:12] it is, it's the perfect, it's just like, whatever weird can and hang up, you've got this book is the Alka-Seltzer that will burp it out of you. Like, it's gone it. I love it. I've read it twice now. And both times I read it, I'm just like, man, this, this rules, like it's so terrible and grungy and, and different from the star wars we got.

[01:14:34] But like, it leads us down a tangent to what if Ridley Scott directed star wars. So it can't be

[01:14:39] Jonny: Yeah.

[01:14:39] Michael: Like it's gotta be pretty great, right? Like gotta be pretty rad, man. and yeah, exactly. The thing I love it exists before. So much of what you think is star wars existed. There are no back to tanks.

[01:14:53] There's no like Yoda or ancient Jedi masters, or like of that, like, it just, it exists in a world where there was one star wars it was the movie star wars, no episode numbers, none of that stuff. Like it just, it's this artifact and that's, I just hope they never let it go out of print or let it fade into not like just saving my copy, like in a safe or something.

[01:15:19] And at the safe deposit box, like this existed, this happened like, it's cool. It's just as this weird thing. It's pro we've got the document. I don't

[01:15:29] Jonny: I want to, I want to meet the person who considered a star wars Canon only from a splinter of the mind's eye. Like, so a new hope and splitter

[01:15:37] the mind's eye. And that's it

[01:15:39] like,

[01:15:39] Michael: yeah.

[01:15:40] Jonny: I wasn't in

[01:15:41] Josh: I mean, kind of a little bit like,

[01:15:44] Michael: The more I read it. The more I come around. It's like,

[01:15:47] yeah, not really.

[01:15:49] Josh: Michael, you said, I think you summed it up, it's a fascinating window into a parallel universe, you know, maybe the fringe universe where, I dunno if anyone, if anyone gets that reference, remember the show

[01:16:00] fringe?

[01:16:01] Michael: are dope. Yeah. I know. I know.

[01:16:04] Josh: Michael, if, if anyone has heard any of our doctor who detours and is like, oh, I want some more of that. where can people find game of RAs salon or anything else you want to, you want to plug

[01:16:16] Michael: Please subscribe to the game of Rasul on and whatever podcast you like. If you're a doctor who fan a new adventures with the new doctor, deep future, don't worry about Canon. Like we were just talking about, we're just having fun with the doctor where all the monsters exist. It's fine. We're heading into, I don't know when this comes out, but, uh, June 1st of this year, we're starting season four with a new doctor, a new game, Missy, a new edition of the system.

[01:16:43] The system has moved on to second edition. So we're doing a regenerated game. So it's, it's very fun. We've um, we've recorded a bunch of episodes. We've poured about half the season already. Uh, and it's a really different show. It's very fun. It's more episodic. It's faster. I'm talking a lot about my show on your show.

[01:17:01] I'm sorry. Um, so

[01:17:02] Josh: for it.

[01:17:03] Michael: find us at wrassle on, on the various social media and if you want even more, we have behind the screen the scenes, behind the everything content on Patreon, as well as bonus adventures, including the forthcoming total chaos, is extremely fun. We, uh, Dan, who is going to be our doctor GM's, uh, far-flung.

[01:17:24] play a malevolent sphere called kills. Uh, they're my favorite character I've ever played. Um, I get to do a very extended USB joke in one of the episodes it's it's exquisite. Uh, um, the thing about our patron is also you just buy time. So eventually those bonus adventures will be on the main feed.

[01:17:41] You're just going to have to wait until December instead of getting them in

[01:17:44] Josh: Cool.

[01:17:45] Michael: So, for those who can't afford it, that's fine for those who can't afford five a month and would like a great big pile of stuff. join us a Patrion at wrassle and pod. There's a lot more of me talking. I hope that's not a detriment.

[01:17:58] Um, but yeah, no, thank you again for having me on here. I, I love split other minds. I, and I love talking, especially Apocrypha, especially weird corners of nerd stuff.

[01:18:08] Josh: That's my jam. That's my jam as well.

[01:18:10] Michael: this is like executive kiss. This is where I want to be. Uh, so thank you. Thank you both again.

[01:18:16] Josh: No. Well, I'm so glad that, uh, , you were able to join us for this. And, I want to thank both of you, John and Michael for having this very nerdy, but very wonderful in so many ways, discussion about star wars, splinter of the mind's eye. If you liked what you heard, you can find us@trashcanpod.com and please rate and review us on the pod cast platform of your choice.

[01:18:37] You can find trash com pod across all social media, and we will see you on the next.