June 20, 2022

The War on Children: OBI-WAN KENOBI Part 5

The War on Children: OBI-WAN KENOBI Part 5

Thoughts on canon, flashbacks, and media literacy

The penultimate episode of OBI-WAN KENOBI!

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[00:00:00] JOSH: Welcome to Trash Compactor. I'm Josh and joining me today is Chris

[00:00:05] CHRIS: Hey, y'all.

[00:00:06] JOSH: and Jonny.

[00:00:07] JONNY: Hello.

[00:00:08] JOSH: Today. We are talking about Obi-Wan Kenobi part five. , this was a good one guys. Jonny, what were

[00:00:16] JONNY: I think this might be my favorite episode of the season so far. Um, I loved everything about it. Um, it just, it hit all the beats for me. It had cool action moments. Um, it had, uh, cool revelations. Uh, not that I was entirely shocked by any of it, but I like the journey to get to those moments, you know, and I just thought that everything they did was like a lot of the things that I kind of, uh, expected to have the series in a really good way.

[00:00:49] um, so I was just really excited to see all of that and, um, we can get into more of it later, but, uh, uh, I liked all the, the illustrations of characters growth or non-growth, uh, through their actions in this episode. Mm-hmm

[00:01:05] JOSH: Uh, yeah, I was thinking about you in those, in those flashbacks. I was like, I was like, oh, Jon's gonna eat this up. He's gonna eat this up. not because of the flashbacks, but because they were specifically using it to say something about the characters that was informing what was going on in the present.

[00:01:22] Yeah. Uh,

[00:01:23] JONNY: wait to get into that. Mm.

[00:01:24] JOSH: Yeah. Uh, Chris overall thoughts.

[00:01:26] CHRIS: Yeah, no, I'm a hundred percent with Jon. This was by far my favorite episode of, uh, of the, the series so far. Um, I thought it covered a lot of good ground. I thought it did a good job of, of building tension and I'm, I'm glad we, we dug into the past because I was wondering when that was going to happen.

[00:01:42] And I thought it was done well, too. Like Jon said, I don't, I don't think we learned anything. We didn't, we didn't already know that said I, I, I felt a little bit, I thought the flashback was enough to give me a little bit of a stronger connection with Anakin and that was nice. Um, and especially because it, it, it.

[00:02:01] You know, I liked that it was one more hint of like Obi-Wan is worried about Anakin, but he also, like, I started to understand why it is that he kept teaching him because he really did think Anakin was learning by the end of that fight. Like I think Anakin wants to learn. And so even though he obviously doesn't, uh, it, it worked for me on a lot of levels.

[00:02:22] Plus I think it does more to speak to, even though I think there's still, um, and you guys said this in the last episode that I wasn't able to record, there is still one more confrontation with Vader, but this was really the lesson of, he was still the learner and, and OB Warren was the master. So for everybody who's complaining that like the quote makes no sense.

[00:02:40] Now I think they can take a breath and maybe look at this and go, okay. You know, it's still the, the line still holds up because believe it or not people who made it have actually watched star wars.

[00:02:52] JOSH: Yeah. Yeah. I was gonna say I was gonna save this for later, but since you brought it up, like the idea, the idea that somebody writing the Obi-Wan Kenobi show the idea that the very first thing they would start with is not those scenes in the original trilogy. Right. And being like, okay, what did they say?

[00:03:13] Like what happened in these scenes? Like what do I have to do? It's like, what am I working with? The idea? Um, there was a star wars YouTuber whose whose name? I won't mention, but Yes, it was Michael J. Fox, well, known star wars fan and, um, a very active, uh, YouTuber.

[00:03:35] but they said something to the effect of whoever wrote this, never watched Revenge of the Sith.

[00:03:42] CHRIS: that seems, that seems, that seems really likely, that seems really likely. And also based on, like you said, haven't watched the original trilogy. It's like, there's really not much about Obi-Wan in the original trilogy. So they would've had to have been really lazy to, to, to not at least explore the original trilogy and think of the line I was, but the learner now I am the master, so that's never watch revenge that's no, no, no.

[00:04:05] That's

[00:04:06] JOSH: well, so because, the writer or one of the writers, , Joby Harold, I think his name is he, um, he had a really interesting article in vanity fair, actually, a really interesting interview where, he was talking about, , the things that they had in mind and were trying to do, and the process, da, da, da.

[00:04:21] And there was one point where, he was talking about working with the story group and, , Pablo Hidalgo who's I think the head of the story group at, Lucas film. And he was talking about what an amazing resource he was and how, like, he was able to go to him with questions to get clarity on things.

[00:04:36] And, uh, one of the things he said he specifically asked him was, how aware is Obi-Wan of the name Darth Vader, in other words, does he know that Anakin is Darth Vader,

[00:04:49] JONNY: mm-hmm

[00:04:49] JOSH: You know, which seems like a sensible question, , to be sure about, because even I like when. In the second episode, the climax of the second episode of the show is, , when Obi-Wan, realizes that Anakin is alive.

[00:05:05] Um, which was a moment that I didn't realize that I really wanted to see that we had never seen. Right. And then as soon as I saw it, I was like, oh my God, he doesn't know. So just like if I try to think like a writer for a second and I'm realizing the dramatic potential of that, that is definitely a question that I would ask, the guy who knows all about the cannon and the continuity to see, if that's okay.

[00:05:29] If I do now, , If you look in the movie, , he does, , see the holo-recording Sidious calling Anakin Lord Vader or something like that. Right. So, so, so he knows that Anakin is Vader, but he doesn't know that Vader slash AAN survived. Right. So, so,

[00:05:51] JONNY: actually see all that in the, uh, his reaction though, because he starts reacting. I think when she mentions Darth Vader's name

[00:05:58] And you see, you see him reacting to that and, you know, and then there's the revelation that he just didn't even know that he was alive,

[00:06:07] CHRIS: Right, right. And I thought this covered it really well because I was, I was glad because it was one of the things that I think I mentioned at voice as a concern that I was like, who is Reva? That like she knows who an, that Anakin is Vader. And part of that comes from the, the, cause I know we've mentioned the animated series before in rebels, um, his apprentice Asoka who was created specifically for, um, for excuse me.

[00:06:31] And, and yeah. And she finds out rebels, but she was, she was created for, um, for, uh, the clone part. right. Um, much like Harley Quinn was created for Batman, the animate series, and then became like a fan favorite. Now they're now they're everywhere. Um, but a Soka did not know that Anakin became Vader, so it's a real for her.

[00:06:50] So I was like, why is this common knowledge suddenly? And so I was starting to go like, all, I'm not gonna hold my breath here, but, but hopefully like they know this. And then to find out the way that Obi-Wan deduces who Reva must be, because she knows who Vader is. Um, that really, that really worked for me.

[00:07:07] And that was one of the reasons I really liked this episode because it didn't tie up all the loose ends as far as I was concerned, but it did hit some of those sort of like, I didn't wanna be a stickler for Canon, but I was like, but at least be aware of no, no, no. They were perfectly aware and they did the thing.

[00:07:22] So, um,

[00:07:23] JONNY: Yeah, I don't even,

[00:07:24] CHRIS: I agree with what you guys are.

[00:07:25] JONNY: I don't even think they broke cannon because I feel like everything they did fit kind of perfectly like, uh, like with Reva, just from the opening scene of the show, I, you know, they, they specifically, uh, show a group of kids and they show one little black girl in the group and then it's.

[00:07:45] Oh, that's probably Reva, you know, not to cast assumptions, but it's like, they casted that on purpose cuz it's, you know, that's, it's logistics of TV and casting. And then so when they reveal that that was her. I mean, uh, I think Brae might have mentioned it, uh, in the other episode and I totally agreed with him because I thought the same thing.

[00:08:04] It was like, I just assumed that she would've witnessed, Anakin killing people in a Jedi temple, whether or not he would've even interacted with her, you know? So it, it just, it just made sense that um, she would, uh, know, you know, and I think with Darth Vader, I think Darth Vader's, uh, appearances at any point up until this point in the TV show, like if the inquisitor are out there hunting all the Jedi, I don't think Vader.

[00:08:40] Gets involved unless it's like a heavy duty person that they need to take down. And since Reva already said, like, uh, in the opening scene of the first episode that like, when they're going after Ben sty, they're like, I'm tired of going after scraps, you know? And I think they, grand inquisitor said something along the lines of like, well, if that's what's left, then that's what's left.

[00:09:01] So there's no need for Vader to do it himself. He's overpowered, you know? And so all that being said, it makes sense if Obi-Wan is living in a cave , you know, and if, uh, Vader's not really making himself known that it wouldn't be common knowledge. And also it would also make sense for the empire too, to, um, keep Anakin invaders identity under wraps anyway, you know, for the wrong, uh, prerogative.

[00:09:33] CHRIS: And OB and Obi-Wan says the same thing, Obi-Wan says, akin wouldn't want anybody to know that he wouldn't want somebody to know that. So, yeah, I, no, I think that's, that's a good analysis.

[00:09:42] JOSH: Yeah. The other thing too, like what this really just speaks to, that really drives me up the wall. And this is what I mean when I say that I don't really care about Canon. Like, like I get that Canon and continuity is important to the degree that it creates rules of the universe.

[00:10:00] So you understand like the dramatic stakes, right?

[00:10:03] JONNY: maybe some coherence as well. So you can follow from a, to B,

[00:10:06] JOSH: Right.

[00:10:07] JONNY: to

[00:10:07] JOSH: Right, exactly. Exactly. So you understand why things mean things, right.

[00:10:11] JONNY: Yeah.

[00:10:12] JOSH: But the idea that like you would, , be so faithful to Canon to the degree that you would not like fudge something or justify something in order to tell a really good story or get a really like meaty dramatic, moment that like shows you something about these characters that you'd never seen the idea that you would close yourself off from writing, something like that, or depicting something like that in order.

[00:10:41] To like, make it, so the editors on Wikipedia don't have to change anything, right? Like it's just like, the whole reason, it seems to me why , these fictional universes are, , worthwhile to keep on, telling new stories and is because the weight of them really allows you to say some really interesting, weighty things.

[00:11:08] Right. , someone gives you the keys to like a really expensive sports car. And . You're so afraid of scratching it that you follow the speed limit or drive less than the speed limit. This analogy is kind of falling apart,

[00:11:22] CHRIS: You're

[00:11:22] JOSH: I think, you know what I'm talking

[00:11:23] CHRIS: you're circling is just not landing the plane, but, but no,

[00:11:26] JOSH: Somebody gives you the keys and you're not using the car for the whole reason. It exists.

[00:11:31] JONNY: Yeah, exactly. It's it's like, you're just like, uh, taking a ride around the block, going under the speed, a limit instead of letting loosen for what the car is made for type of thing.

[00:11:41] CHRIS: No. And I mean, I'm, I'm with you. I, this is I, I can say. And I know this is not for everybody for me. I'm I know I'm carrying my own baggage into this because whenever I see them start to break cannon, I start to go. Okay. But what else are you gonna break? Like, as much as I love, love, love rogue one, it drives me nuts that they jump to hyperspace before they leave the.

[00:12:03] The reason I, when, uh, when, when Jetta is being destroyed by, uh, by the death star and the they're in they're in Cassian's U wing. And, uh, you know, the horizon is gone and they jumped hyperspace without punching anything in. It drives me nuts because they're the ones who created hyperspace in the first place.

[00:12:21] Like the makers of star wars created hyperspace, including interdictors. And what interdictors do is they create gravity well, and that's what sucks ships out of hyperspace. That's why you can't jump directly to, or from a planet. It has to be outside of the gravity. Well, and so it Bo it's, again, it doesn't ruin the movie or anything for me, but it bothers me that I'm going, like you, you couldn't just get them out of there.

[00:12:45] It had to be so close that you broke this canonical thing that you created. And so, like, it just, it just sort of bugs me in the back of my head. It's a really tiny thing. So when they break can, and I go, that may not have bothered me. Are they gonna do a thing that will bother me and not necessarily ruin it for me, that's too much for me personally, but enough that it bothers me that I go, ah, like the Vader thing.

[00:13:09] I talked about this in our episode three recording, it bothered me that Vader seemed to let them escape because what had, what happened with, um, oh, Tala with TLA shooting and then there's more fire. And now he can't reach Obi-Wan while the loader droid is very slowly dragging him away. Um, I still haven't seen a resolution makes me go, oh, Vader did that on purpose.

[00:13:31] It doesn't ruin the series for me, but it bothers me when I think there was a solution, I guess. So for me personally, again, I know that's not everybody, but I think that's my concern when I see them break cannon as I go, okay. That didn't necessarily bother me. But does that mean they're going to do something that will, and that's just me carrying my own baggage.

[00:13:49] JONNY: hear that. I hear that.

[00:13:50] JOSH: no, I hear that too.

[00:13:52] JONNY: sometimes, like I have a few thoughts, like sometimes, uh, they'll introduce something like, uh, I don't know, like in last Jedi, you'll see, like when the start destroyer ship is like firing at the rebel capital ship,

[00:14:07] CHRIS: yeah.

[00:14:07] JONNY: are a, the lasers are arcing,

[00:14:09] CHRIS: Yes.

[00:14:10] JONNY: and then, so you, so you're watching it and you're like, huh.

[00:14:13] And then you're like, and, and then like, and it kind of takes you out of it a little bit because you start thinking of like the implications, like, wait, are they not lasers? Are they, are they affected by grab? And like,

[00:14:22] CHRIS: Right, right. Yeah. The ship, the

[00:14:23] JONNY: and then never did that.

[00:14:25] CHRIS: starts tumbling backward and I'm like, that's not how space works.

[00:14:28] JONNY: but, but even then, like, it's like after eight movies and a million cartoons and stuff like that, they never, and then you.

[00:14:36] Oh, okay. But at the same time, like I just push right by that because you know, there's no sound in the space. There's no explosions in the space. Like none of these things make sense. It's it's fantasy. So I'm totally cool with it. Um, but to go back to what you were saying, um, Josh about like, um, continuity and stuff like that.

[00:14:57] I think there's this level of, um, prequel fans in particular, when you said this person never has seen revenge of the Sy, I think they're becoming like, um, the way original trilogy fans were about the prequels prequel fans are now becoming that way about new stuff. So there are like, this is not like the thing that I've remembered.

[00:15:19] Why is this not like the thing that I remembered and they're livid, just like the way original trilogy fans were about the prequels and then. And then,

[00:15:28] JOSH: right.

[00:15:29] JONNY: and it's just one of the things where it's like, dude, did you even watch the prequels? Because continuity was broken. Willynilly like KGON gin existed as a character to just break continuity, uh, and all these things.

[00:15:42] And like, you know, Leia is like, I remember my mom's like, dude, she died the moment you were born. And like, and it's just like all these things, but at the same time, it's like, who gives a fuck? You know, as long as it doesn't break the story, like why gin doesn't break the story of star

[00:15:59] wars,

[00:15:59] JOSH: exactly, exactly. Break the

[00:16:01] JONNY: remembering her mom doesn't break the story

[00:16:04] JOSH: a good, that's a good way to put it. That's a good way to put it as long as it doesn't break the story.

[00:16:09] JONNY: and everything that's happening. Like when they say like, um, what about that line? Last? I saw you. I was a learner now in the master. It's like, I think they literally want. Either, no scenes with Obi-Wan invader, or they want a scene of like a fight. That's just like the prequels and they want the revel, they want the revelation to be just like a prequel revelation and it's

[00:16:31] CHRIS: percent. You're a hundred percent, right? Cause this was the complaint about Luke in last Jedi, right? This is not the Luke, this is not the Luke we should be seeing. So you're absolutely right.

[00:16:40] JOSH: Well,

[00:16:41] so what's

[00:16:41] JONNY: like a, and, and even then Luke, doesn't break the story. It's just, he's different, you know exactly

[00:16:47] JOSH: Yeah. What's interesting too, is that I think , they literally have Obi-Wan say in the flashback, , To akin, this is why you are still a Padawan or something like that. Right. , so in the way that

[00:17:00] CHRIS: He basically says that for as long as you're willing to, um, it's basically along the lines of like, as long as you, you keep making this mistake,

[00:17:08] JOSH: yeah, like you're still a Padawan. So in the, so in then, so in

[00:17:11] JONNY: you're so concentrating on winning that,

[00:17:14] CHRIS: that. Yeah. That's what its

[00:17:14] JONNY: And, and then he, and, uh, you mentioned this earlier in, uh, in this episode, Chris, but like what makes Anan still look good in that scene? And the flashback is that you see this like understanding on his face and you see this naive look in his face credit to hate and Christiansen for acting and, and him moting.

[00:17:33] And, um, and you get the idea that like he wants to know, and he looks at Obi-Wan, like, oh, I still have a lot to learn. And then ironically, he does not learn this lesson because it's the same lesson that he loses with at the end of this episode, which is beautiful, uh, storytelling right there. .

[00:17:51] JOSH: Yeah. Let's talk about the flashback for a sec. I thought it was really, , cool. If not entirely unexpected that, we saw flashback to, I guess this must be circa attack of the clones or at least not that far after attack of the clones. Oh, because of the

[00:18:08] JONNY: think it's before, because he still has both of his hands.

[00:18:12] JOSH: oh, good point.

[00:18:14] Good

[00:18:14] JONNY: still has both of his hands.

[00:18:16] JOSH: has both hands. and this is why I'm not writing star wars, cuz I would break continuity. I would have Anakin with his hands during Revenge of the Sith and I wouldn't know. And I would,

[00:18:23] CHRIS: well that's cause you've never watched Revenge of the Sith Josh

[00:18:26] JONNY: go. I could be wrong, but I think he had both, uh, human skin looking

[00:18:31] JOSH: No, no you're absolutely right.

[00:18:32] CHRIS: no, that was, that was the impression that I got as.

[00:18:34] JOSH: Yeah. I thought it was great. I really loved the way the episode was kind of structured around those flashbacks. So we understand the way that Obi-Wan understands Anakin. Um, though, I think it was framed as this is something, know if this was like necessarily an active memory so much as like an illustration of why they know these things about each other,

[00:18:57] JONNY: exactly like you kind of see the first, when it cut to the present that cuts to Vader as if maybe he was thinking about that dual,

[00:19:04] which is interesting because he doesn't learn anything from it. But I think to your point, the episodes, just trying to say, like, this is how they

[00:19:10] JOSH: exactly. Here's why they know. Yes, exactly. Exactly.

[00:19:14] CHRIS: Or the thing he learned from it was just, I, I hate losing, I hate it and it

[00:19:20] JOSH: Yeah, no, that's true.

[00:19:21] JONNY: Yeah.

[00:19:22] CHRIS: about how embarrassing it was because Obi-Wan is weapon list. He's weapon list. He's beaten and he Anakin still loses. So yeah,

[00:19:31] JONNY: awesome choreography, by the way, a, I love how Hayden Hutchinson hasn't lost a step. Like the way he twirls that thing around. It's like, oh, that's just like old school. Anique and I, and kudos to the choreographer to put it into the old school moves. But on top of that, I also like how they put in some invader shit too.

[00:19:49] Like when, when

[00:19:51] JOSH: Uh, the

[00:19:51] JONNY: on one knee, he's going whack, whack, and he's just hitting, he's like hammering it down. And then he's like, you can see the desperation on Ann's face, where he is like, just admit that you lost, you know, like, and it's like, oh, that's some invader shit coming down in him, but it's under the guise of like a super eager Anakin, which still, uh, works very much for the charact.

[00:20:12] JOSH: , the other subtle thing that I liked about it, , both in the flashback and also what it, , leads Obi-Wan, uh, to do and say in the present is when, know, he says that there are ways to fight without weapons.

[00:20:25] CHRIS: yes,

[00:20:26] JOSH: Which you know, is really, , reminiscent , of in star wars when he says there are alternatives to fighting.

[00:20:32] JONNY: Mm-hmm

[00:20:33] CHRIS: it's a really good line. There were a couple of really, really good lines

[00:20:37] JONNY: Yeah. And it's, it's also a little bit of evocative too, of when Yoda tells Luke before he goes into the cave, uh, your weapons, you don't need them. Like it's not every conflict needs to be about killing, you

[00:20:50] CHRIS: Right.

[00:20:51] JOSH: No. And not only that, , but also in that, , same, , scene when Luke asks him what's in there, he says only what you take with you. And, and it's sort of like, if you bring a gun with you, you will probably

[00:21:03] JONNY: into a gun

[00:21:03] JOSH: Yeah.

[00:21:04] yeah, yeah.

[00:21:05] JONNY: And, and nobody was smart enough to know that, like, I probably can't beat him in a dual right now, but I can outwit him because all he's thinking about is just is brute force. And I am, and he's beyond that, you know?

[00:21:18] CHRIS: Yeah,

[00:21:18] JOSH: one thing also, Chris, , to speak to, , what you spoke about in part three that you just mentioned, about, you know, it kind of seems like Vader lets him go. do think we're gonna see one more, head to head confrontation between them in the next episode.

[00:21:36] CHRIS: I.

[00:21:36] JOSH: And I kind of feel like saw how weak he had become and like kind of feel like he doesn't want to defeat that Obi-Wan.

[00:21:47] He wants to give Obi-Wan a chance to get,

[00:21:49] CHRIS: You think

[00:21:50] JOSH: up to his fighting weight.

[00:21:52] CHRIS: you think this is moment

[00:21:53] JOSH: a little bit.

[00:21:55] CHRIS: Williams has three days to and become the.

[00:21:59] JOSH: A little bit and I mean, like you look at Obi-Wan last episode, , at , the Inquisitor's fortres, I'm not gonna call it, fortres inquisitor, because I just feel strange saying that, but

[00:22:12] you know, like we got some glimpses of , the prequel Obi-Wan. , and in this episode, I think he's even transcending the prequel Obi-Wan a little bit and moving into that sort of original trilogy Obi-Wan, where he doesn't even need, he doesn't even need the weapons to fight because he, he knows other ways to fight. So I think maybe when they confront each other in the next episode, which, by the way, I know we're skipping around a little bit. I'm really excited for next week. Uh, because the, uh, they've sort of resolved all the main stories, uh, more or less. And I have no idea and I have no idea what's gonna happen.

[00:22:46] CHRIS: Yeah.

[00:22:47] JONNY: I, I, I, I love that so much.

[00:22:49] CHRIS: No, I'm I'm with you. I, I I'm right there with you. I thought the flashback was, was really well done. Um, it didn't sometimes when they do flashbacks like that, especially when you, when you know it's coming and you, you see them start the fight and it's like, all right, we know this is gonna be interval then throughout the episode, um, sometimes with that predictability, you're kind of like, okay, so how much time is left in the episode?

[00:23:09] Like another two minutes of this flashback, ah, that's gonna eat in tube, blah, blah, blah. Like, I did not feel that at all, which was great. I just thought it was really, really well paced. Uh I'm with you, Jon. I thought the choreography was, was great. We got some mannequin, but also some Vader. Um, it was, I thought it was great.

[00:23:25] And again, it, it brought in some really nice lines, uh, to me though, the best line for sure is you aren't bringing him to me. I'm bringing him to you.

[00:23:35] JOSH: Yeah,

[00:23:35] JONNY: was just gonna bring that up.

[00:23:38] JOSH: Yeah, that was,

[00:23:40] JONNY: Yeah.

[00:23:41] JOSH: yeah.

[00:23:41] JONNY: And, uh, what, what I love about that line and the lead up to it is that, um, cuz Obi-Wan's not just playing chess with Vader, he's playing chess with Reva.

[00:23:50] CHRIS: Right, right.

[00:23:51] JONNY: when he, when he figures out through that really cool conversation through the door, that, uh, she is not serving Vader, but she wants to kill him.

[00:24:00] He earnestly I think reaches out to her and is like, look. We should join sides, cuz like kind of, maybe there's still some hope in her that like she's just misguided, but then he quickly realizes that he doesn't have enough time to do that because she's on a war path and she's still trying to kill everybody.

[00:24:17] So then he uses her as bait and I liked, I liked how like,

[00:24:22] CHRIS: won't stop him. He knows that.

[00:24:24] JONNY: And, and so I liked how it seemed in my impression that when he first offered her to join sides, he meant it as a good guy. Like honestly like come back to the light, like you, it's not too late. And then when she's like, fuck you die. He's like, okay, I'm now I'm just gonna use you as bait.

[00:24:42] And I don't care if you die now. and so like, so when he says that when he says plan B, so when he says that line to her, there is like this look on you and McGregor's face where it's almost like when, when Lucas told talking to Jabba and he is like, all right, well, if you don't free, I'm gonna kill you. So when Obi-Wan says that to her, it's like.

[00:24:59] That that was a threat. He's like, he's like, you think you've won. He's like, he's like, you're probably going to die today because I'm bringing him to you play your game very well. It was a warning to her, you know, I love that.

[00:25:12] CHRIS: It was such a good quote.

[00:25:13] JOSH: No. Yeah. That was such an awesome line and such an awesome moment. And just really, , goes to show like how, like what kind of game Obi-Wan is playing and how good he is at this. You know, there's a reason why he's, he's a general,

[00:25:27] JONNY: mm-hmm, , he's all about the strategy. And also I love the, uh, it's just like a, a, a little moment thing. I love little moments that just can increase, uh, the urgency of an instance. And I remember, uh, when she cuts through the door and he didn't expect it. And then they start coming in and just the urgency that you and McGregor screams out to everybody, like get back and he's like, get into the position.

[00:25:51] Like, like I just like, kind of, like I was talking about last time was the people finding their breaking point. He didn't break, but like, I just love the honesty of a situation where he wasn't trying to act cool or act tough. It was like shit's happening right now. Like get ready. You know, almost like when Han, like when Han tells Luke and Leia to get, get behind me, get behind me before the storm troopers break in, in,

[00:26:12] the

[00:26:12] JOSH: Yeah.

[00:26:13] JONNY: you know, had that same sort of like urgency to it.

[00:26:16] CHRIS: especially because it does, it really impacts it was it. I think they needed that in order for the loss of Tala and the, the loader droid, the lifter droid to really, to really mean something because it did it, it watching the, the loader droid was really nicely done. Not a single word of dialogue and no like real affection, just protection, like done even better, I thought than like K2 sacrifice and RObi-Wan, like

[00:26:41] JONNY: yeah. I, I thought that.

[00:26:43] CHRIS: desperation, it doesn't work.

[00:26:45] JONNY: Exactly. And I thought that was a beautiful moment where, uh, the last thing that loader joy does is just use his body to protect UHT. And

[00:26:54] CHRIS: then, and then

[00:26:55] JONNY: Tyler's face just looks heartbroken when she sees

[00:26:58] CHRIS: yeah, talking about glow, I think it's, is it Murray? Who says he loves lifesaver glow? You get, you

[00:27:04] JONNY: I love it too, but it it's a, it marries all about that.

[00:27:07] CHRIS: The glow of the loaders. You don't even see the loader's eyes go dark. You just see the light on T from his eyes go dark. And it was just, it was, it was just, it was a very nicely done moment. I didn't think it was overstated.

[00:27:20] I, it was really, really nicely done.

[00:27:22] JOSH: You know, the other thing that's really interesting too, that I,, was struck by, on my second watch of the episode was right after that, when Obi-Wan, , the door closes and , , he runs into the hangar and he's made it safety. And like, he kind of has a moment where he kind of really absorbs the loss it like really affects him.

[00:27:40] Like he's so sick of people dying.

[00:27:44] JONNY: Yeah.

[00:27:45] he's sick of the shit.

[00:27:46] JOSH: Yeah. He's just like, it's interesting too. I mean, this is probably a, a stretch, um, but it's sort of like, that scene, , when, Reva cuts through the door and the storm troopers charge in like that firefight is in such close quarters.

[00:28:02] it's so hectic. it's sort of hard to even see through like the like fog of war or whatever, like just like, you know,

[00:28:09] CHRIS: like watching a Badman movie,

[00:28:11] JOSH: yeah.

[00:28:12] CHRIS: like where it's like, no, you're fighting. I have no idea what you're doing. We're transformers, the Michael bay transformers where it's like, well, if things happening, but I don't know what it is.

[00:28:20] JOSH: yeah. , but I thought that though, this was an example of them using that with intention, how outmatched and outgunned they are and how how frantic it is. , and the fact that, that's how, how T dies

[00:28:36] and he has that little moment, , it almost makes me think of, , what sort of become a meme. but in a new hope, when Obi-Wan is talking about the light saber as a, civilized weapon for a more civilized age, you know, before the empire, before the Clone wars, even, when it was like, just like a meat grinder of warfare.

[00:28:54] Right.

[00:28:55] JONNY: Mm-hmm

[00:28:55] JOSH: anyway, that's what that made me think of.

[00:28:57] CHRIS: I just think that's a, that's a good assessment and it's the, the horror of he thought he was done with the horror of war and turns out he's not, he's not done with the horrors of war after all.

[00:29:09] JONNY: Yeah. And I think it also translates to, uh, in between his first conversation with re when the second conversation is when Tyler dies. So with the extra bite, he's like, fuck you. I don't care if Vader chops your head off.

[00:29:21] CHRIS: That's a really good

[00:29:22] JONNY: You know,

[00:29:22] JOSH: That's a

[00:29:23] CHRIS: know, that's a really good point.

[00:29:24] JOSH: No, that's a really good point.

[00:29:26] JONNY: And also, uh, I guess since we're kind of close to the topic, but Vader, uh, yet again, like you see Alana Vatican and the way that he rushes down the hallway, To get the O Obi-Wan.

[00:29:37] And then to like, I feel like this was like another rogue one moment where like in rogue one, it was like, okay, we've never really seen Vader, just like rip into good guys. And, and he does, and then this one, it's like, we all know that a and super powerful with the forest. And then he's then when he stops the ship, you're like, holy shit.

[00:29:56] And then he just like rips the walls off of it. You're like, and he's like yelling like ARR when he does it. And you're like, you know, like, yeah, this is another illustration of what Vader can do. And like the empire strikes back by showing Vader's power, you get to realize how hopeless is a conflict is to do him.

[00:30:18] So immediately after that, Reva's like, yeah, I'll try to kill you. And it's like, oh girl, you're,

[00:30:23] CHRIS: I,

[00:30:24] JONNY: be your day.

[00:30:25] CHRIS: it was, was so badass. And the fact that Obi-Wan like anticipated Anakin's power and was able to do that. But then when he stops, Reva's light saber, mid strike, and slowly turns to her and we can get back this to this later, Josh. Cause I don't know if you wanted to get to this light now, man, when he slowly turned to her, I gotta say the fight between them was like heartbreaking and awesome because Reva's just dead.

[00:30:51] But the fact that, and the fact that Vader fights her without a weapon and then he breaks her weapon in half and hands her a

[00:31:01] so thoroughly beat her. Oh.

[00:31:04] JONNY: He's like, he's really toy with he's like, come on, like you do this let's right.

[00:31:08] JOSH: I'm actually glad that you brought that up. because I think that was also, um, something else that made me think that, , Vader, , wants to fight an Obi-Wan that has a little more fight in him. Right.

[00:31:22] Uh, because,

[00:31:23] CHRIS: That's a good

[00:31:24] JOSH: , because, he disarmed her, he disarmed Reva. He could have killed her. , but he was like, no, I wanna, I want you to actually try

[00:31:33] CHRIS: point. I, I wanna, I wanna so thoroughly, I think about it a lot when I'm watching like the hockey playoffs, there's always a moment in the series where a team loses its spirit and it might be a penalty. It might be a goal. It might be a, a, a, a, there isn't any number of things that you might go. Yeah.

[00:31:50] They're just, they're just going through the motions now. and that is clearly what Vader is trying to do to Reva is he wants to see that spark dead gone extinguished. He doesn't want to kill her while she's defiant. He wants to kill her when there's nothing left for her

[00:32:07] JONNY: Yeah. He wants to like Bain. He wants to break their spirit. And, um, and I feel like, uh, cuz they're very similar characters I feel, but I love that moment where you just see the escalation of her frustration. Cuz first is single. And then she puts on two blades and then in the, she does the spining thing and then Vader walks towards her.

[00:32:27] Like she's not spinning anything. And then he goes, whoop, whoop. And he just stops it. And you see him look on her face. It's like, it's not panic, but you can tell that she's just like, fuck like this. Like she's just, she's so frustrated, like the way a child can get frustrated. I loved all of that.

[00:32:48] JOSH: , speaking of, and this is something, , that I'm curious to get your guys thoughts on. So, so in that moment, and speaking of her being like a child, I thought it was very affecting how, when Vader kills her, sees Anakin and we see what she looked like as a child. Um,

[00:33:08] JONNY: repeating itself

[00:33:09] CHRIS: That's why, that's why I said it was heartbreaking. It

[00:33:11] JOSH: no, it really was

[00:33:12] CHRIS: tough to

[00:33:12] JOSH: the other, , no, it was tough to watch. , the other thing, , that I thought, , was heartbreaking was, when Reva and Obi-Wan. Are talking through the door and Reva explains how she knows Anakin is Vader , and Obi-Wan realizes that she was at the Jedi temple. so I don't think that we recorded this, but, n, we were talking off air a few weeks ago where I hypothesized when we were speculating about the relationship between Reva and Anakin and we were speculating, , maybe he spared her life, , because they were going to recruit some young Jedi to turn to the dark side and turn into inquisitors, , combined with, we saw, the frozen Jedi and, uh, one of them was a child and I'm thinking, okay, so maybe, we're gonna find out that Anakin didn't slaughter children.

[00:33:59] but this episode, um,

[00:34:01] JONNY: They show him

[00:34:02] JOSH: Yeah, no, they, they, they went where Revenge of the Sith did not go,

[00:34:08] JONNY: ostensibly three kids.

[00:34:09] JOSH: you see him murder three children.

[00:34:12] JONNY: Yeah. Mm-hmm

[00:34:13] JOSH: so that whole theory went out the window. , but then , the line that, , Reva has where she explains how she survived, , she pretended to be dead and she hid among the bodies and that just made no.

[00:34:27] And that just made me think of the unfortunate reality that we live in, where that's a thing that happens in school shootings where

[00:34:33] JONNY: mm-hmm

[00:34:34] JOSH: where children actually do that.

[00:34:37] CHRIS: Right. We just had that with one girl who said that she, she put her dead friend's blood on her.

[00:34:43] JOSH: Yeah. So, so it's, something that I've been thinking for for a few weeks,

[00:34:48] CHRIS: Oh yeah.

[00:34:48] JOSH: As we've been discussing this show and, , something that, really hit me watching this episode and that moment, and also at the, the end where, you see Reva find the recording where bail is talking about the, the children and stuff. And this is something that I've been thinking about for a few weeks now watching this show, and I've been trying to figure out how to articulate it. , but the whole thing with, the massacring of the young Jedi at the Jedi temple during order 66 and how we've been revisiting that, how that trauma made Reva, the person that she is, , When Obi-Wan was talking a few weeks ago about how he was taken from his parents when he was a child, to be trained as a Jedi and how they keep talking about the children.

[00:35:36] Right. , and even, to the degree where, Luke and Leia also kind of, , being used as , these secret weapons to hopefully overthrow the emperor one day. And all of this has been swirling around in my head. And it like really makes me think of, how children are being used to wage this ideological war. And, Tala said in this episode, , she was recalling how, when she worked as an Imperial officer and they rounded up, , these families who were forced sensitive and they executed them, including six children, , it's been making me think of, the war on, trans children that has, been escalating in, the past few years and the way that they are really being used kind of wage in ideological war.

[00:36:33] Like they're sort of a front, sort of in this larger, cultural war. And I'm not really crescendoing to any sort of a, point here beyond, seeing all of this that's . Where my mind has been going. And I'm just wondering if you guys have any thoughts or reactions , about all of that.

[00:36:51] It's like, I just, I keep hearing them talking about the children and like,

[00:36:55] JONNY: Well, I, uh, I, I think as we said it before, about all the other star wars movies, how star wars, the original trilogy is, you know, has all these like illusions to world war II and Vietnam and, uh, fascism and stuff like that. And this goes into, um, to, um, modern times two, not even just with the Obi-Wan show, but I, I remember when the sequel trilogy came out, I remember describing that Kylo Ren as like a in cell mass shooter sort of type of guy and, um, I, yeah, exactly.

[00:37:37] And so, uh, and he has this like, uh, perverted idea of the past and stuff like that. So I feel. You know, obviously these shootings happened, um, after they shot the show, cuz I don't think they would've, uh, necessarily written those scenes after, uh, afterward. However star wars is, is usually on the pulse of what's happening.

[00:37:59] And um, I don't necessarily think they're making a distinct point about a specific subject as much as there's a saying to, to what you were saying, Josh, which I completely agree a hundred percent is that we are now considering the idea of active trauma on kids and how that affects their future and how people use kids as ponds or weapons and ideological conflicts.

[00:38:27] And um, I think this is just another illustration of that. I do think that, uh, both sides will probably try to. Skew that star wars perspective into whatever they feel their ideology is . But that being said, that being said, though, it's just reality that like kids are collateral damage in all of these conflicts of, uh, philosophies and star wars is really getting into the meat of that right now.

[00:38:55] It's

[00:38:55] JOSH: yeah. Well, uh, to be clear, I'm almost sure that, none of this was, by. Conscious design though. I do think that it's, know, the product of the culture that's, , creating it. And even though they

[00:39:13] JONNY: what we live in now, you know?

[00:39:15] JOSH: , and obviously, you know, they had no idea that, Uvalde would happen right before the show premiered.

[00:39:20] But I mean, let's be real though. Mass shootings at schools have been, reality for, for decades now. So, I mean, it's not like it's not in the ether.

[00:39:29] JONNY: no, no, no. That's, that's what I'm saying. And so, uh, uh, as I mentioned before, with Kyler red and, and with star wars now, it's like, this is just reality. Reality is, is that kids are targets for a terrible, terrible atrocities that, um, our own citizens perpetrate onto them. You know, this isn't some foreign invader coming in to kill anyone.

[00:39:54] That's like not of the same, uh, nationality that they are. These are just, these are people killing their own Akins, killing his own. And, and in America, we not, we as an us, but like there are people out there who are killing their own fellow Americans and their kids. So yeah, there's, there's a huge alleg course to this.

[00:40:11] You.

[00:40:12] JOSH: Yeah. And I mean, it's also interesting too, the degree to which, , and I don't know that it ever really hit me in such a visceral way, because I don't think, we'd never seen this, , particular, , moment of, the history of the Star Wars, galaxy or whatever. but this idea that not just the Jedi themselves, , but everyone who is force sensitive has, , become terrifying other that totalitarian governments have, successfully, weaponized and created, as the boogeyman throughout history.

[00:40:44] I don't ever, I think what really hit me was how they keep talking about, it's not just the Jedi that they're hunting. It's also , just anyone who they deem to be force sensitive and, and like, who even knows what the hell that actually means. I mean, you can just say, Hey, I saw him, I saw him float to rock,

[00:41:04] CHRIS: but that's right, right. And this

[00:41:06] JONNY: fascist society. That's that's Nazi-ism, that's like, it's not just Jews. It's gypsies. It's disabled people. It's anybody. They thought that it's communist it's it's whatever it's anybody that doesn't go with their ideology, they gotta go.

[00:41:19] CHRIS: I think it's, it's what you said, Jon. It's it's this is the world that just the world that we live in now, Josh, I, I, I think for me, some of the stuff about the kids, uh, I didn't quite, uh, latch onto for me personally. I didn't, I didn't quite, uh, define it, uh, in terms of the war on trans kids. Although I think that is one of the most, most current ones that's going on right now.

[00:41:46] Excuse me for me. I, I kept going back to, excuse me. I do think it was intentional. Um, but it was hard for me to not see the Nazi parallels because for me, tho those dead lightsabers were just shoes. They were just pairs of shoes that you see at, at, you know, uh, Auschwitz at, at, uh, at Tarion stad, right? The, so at the same with the robes, and then of course Tallah talks about just following orders, but that, that war on children and how children are used, I think is, you know, I think, I think you both make some really excellent points and it's hard for me not to walk away with, with, you know, I thought Lola was a really, really nice touch because she.

[00:42:29] I say she, but the droid Lola demonstrates the risk of attachment and how the dark side and the empire will absolutely pervert people's attachments to do harm, right. Because Lola leads them back and then Lola also traps them. Right? So, so that the, her Lay's attachment to that droid is what screws them over and leads to this bad situation in the first place.

[00:42:54] And it's what the empire in the dark side do best. And, and going back to what Yoda says, you know, what's gonna be, and they're only what you take with you. It's O the dark side in the empire, don't just operate in a vacuum. They always pervert your attachments and your intentions. And I think that's what we're seeing with the children, right, is we're seeing this notion of this is why you indoctrinate kids.

[00:43:17] This is why you otherwise, children. This is why the kids are always, always, always going to be upon whether it's in physical, actual, literal war or ideological war is. Frankly, they are extremely, they're extremely effective weapons when they're used either way. Um, and you're right. Both sides.

[00:43:39] JOSH: So because, so for the same reason why, when you have that first generation of children who live under the new regime, they're not able to fight it, , nearly as effectively because they don't know anything else. Right? Like, so the thing that I find a little bit, um, I believe Icky is the technical term, is that, basically Obi-Wan and Yoda are using Luke and Leia in the exact same way though, though.

[00:44:06] I mean, though, I mean, not to say, , that like they are 100% equivalent, , because I don't think, both sides are the same. I don't think it's, I don't think it's as it's, as it's as simple as that, I think that that's, reductive, , but it does make me feel kind of, weird,

[00:44:21] CHRIS: No. I mean, I think you're right. We see this, see, this is where I think the parallel can be drawn very, very well to trans kids is that you have the conservatives who talk about, you know, talk about all the harm that's done to children, that they would even think that, you know, they're a boy, they think they're a girl or they're a girl and they think they're a boy.

[00:44:40] And this is where the world is coming to when they can't even tell, which is which right. But then you've got on the other, other side of the coin, you have all of us liberals and a lot of us have no problem. Um, elevating certain trans kids while, uh, you know, while oppressing other trans kids. You know, when we're talking about, about trans kids of color versus trans white kids, um, you know, do they, do they fit our notion of what is, who wants?

[00:45:10] Who's going to be our poster child. Right. And so I don't think the sides are equal, but a hundred percent you have these kids being used by both sides. They're being weaponized by both sides. And even though I do tend to think that generally, you know, uh, in, in this particular situation, the, the liberals are better.

[00:45:32] The liberal agenda is better for trans kids. That is not to say that it doesn't harm trans kids and use them and, and ultimately deploy them for, towards an agenda that does not necessarily serve them.

[00:45:45] JOSH: I mean, I think I get what you're saying. I'm not a hundred percent sure. I agree , though, I have to be honest and say that I am reaching the limits of what I feel like I'm qualified to,

[00:45:55] CHRIS: Sure, sure.

[00:45:56] JOSH: to opine about.

[00:45:58] JONNY: Well to, to bring it back to, uh, Luke and Le to kids and Obi-Wan and all that. Um, there's something to be said about the journey of Obi-Wan as a character from even not just the last set of movies to a new hope, but to, to go from the, the first episode of this series to now. And I think when he is talking to Owen and he is like, you know, Luke's getting older now he's gotta be trained.

[00:46:21] That's an old school idea of all he knows. And then I have a feeling by the end of this show, OB, one's gonna be totally cool with the idea of just not training Luke until Luke discovers him and wants to be trained when he's ready. And that that's a big, that's a big character growth because at no point is, is Al Inis being like, look, look, I need to train you.

[00:46:42] Like, he's just like, I mean, if you want, you know, like that type of thing and on

[00:46:46] JOSH: you must do what you feel is

[00:46:48] JONNY: Yeah, exactly. And that he, he needs to learn that, which I think he's learning as the show goes. And, um, and I think this kind of goes along with like yet, again, more of that qu gone philosophy, being a Maverick, not going with the dogma.

[00:47:03] And so when we talk about liberals, conservatives, this, that whatever, uh, what do what's appropriate for kids? I think what a lot of people forget in almost every single ideological debate about anything is that most things come down to an individual case by case basis, you know, but people like to hang their entire cause on one thing to prove everything, you know, and exactly it's, and it's almost like it's kind of productive a little bit.

[00:47:36] So it's like, so what's appropriate for one. Person is not appropriate for the other person. And it's not even just about controversial things. This is also talking about mundane things, you know, what's good. What's a good car for you is not a good car for him. So like,

[00:47:50] CHRIS: This food is healthy for you. It's

[00:47:52] JONNY: yeah, so no one would, no one would ever say like, everyone should buy a Prius.

[00:47:56] No, everyone should, everyone should buy a truck, you know, but yet again, we, we talk about, you know, uh, complicated things like that. And it's like the long story is short to bring it back to star wars. Again, I think Obi-Wan's gonna have some sort of self discovery where he's getting away from that dogma, whatever that dogma is,

[00:48:17] CHRIS: Well, he sort

[00:48:17] JONNY: intentions are not, I think he's gonna be like, you know, like, fuck it.

[00:48:21] Who cares if Luke grows up to be 18, 19 years old and he seeks me out and he's ready, then that will be the time I will train him. Instead

[00:48:27] CHRIS: he needs to

[00:48:28] JONNY: he's old, he's old, you know,

[00:48:30] CHRIS: right. Obi-Wan needs to come to a similar conclusion that that Yoda reached, which is. Just because this is how the Jedi have always done it. And just because we use the lights out of the forest does not mean these are binary situations and binary solutions are, are, can often cause unintentional harm.

[00:48:48] JONNY: Yeah. I mean,

[00:48:48] CHRIS: this is, this is not necessarily wisdom.

[00:48:51] JONNY: the dude is literally wearing gray in these episodes as he's getting wiser and I'm not into the whole gray, I'm not even talking about gray Jedi caning, cuz whatever, fuck. I don't give for shit, but it's more

[00:49:01] JOSH: not black and white.

[00:49:02] JONNY: exactly. Life is not black and white and like, like I, we were talking about in the last, uh, episode or so, um, Obi-Wan's attachments are making him stronger, you know?

[00:49:14] And so, uh, there's something to be learned here. And I, I just feel like this all kind of ties in with all of that is what I'm trying.

[00:49:22] JOSH: No. , for sure. And I feel like, one of the things that's so interesting to me about this story and about star wars in general is the way that this story that is, , supposed to be one long story, was kind of. Written backwards and inside out and kludged together when things don't necessarily make sense.

[00:49:42] And, the most interesting sort of, , chasm that exists is this space in between, Revenge of the Sith and A New Hope, , where you literally have the furthest evolution of the thinking and understanding of what Star Wars was, by George Lucas, it's creator, , Butting right up against the sort of primorial version of Star Wars before it knew what it was.

[00:50:07] Right. So in these two, , things are supposed to go seamlessly together when. In reality, they couldn't be , the two pieces of star wars that are further apart. Right. So, so it's so interesting. To see, this show try to do something and I mean, arguably a lot of these shows like, the, and, or show I think is gonna do something similar where it's, picking up the two ends of this, chasm and sort of like seeing what it can do in there to tell an interesting and vital story that makes it feel like it's of it's of a piece with the whole.

[00:50:44] And I know I keep saying this. , but for me, one of the most amazing things about this show was they showed me a moment that now seems so vital. And so like, how could you have star wars without having this moment as a part of the story that I didn't even know I wanted, which was O Obi-Wan, learn that Anakin is still alive and is still Vader.

[00:51:06] And seeing them have that confrontation because the confrontation that they have in A New Hope does not satisfy what is set up in Revenge of the Sith when you see them see each other again, for the first time, since Revenge of the Sith you need a little more than the dual that we have in Star Wars.

[00:51:26] CHRIS: but it's all those moments, right? Cause Jon, you talked about this, you talked about this earlier in this episode, you talked about how for you it's, it's all these moments. And in the previous episode that you guys recorded, you know, you talked about. How lovely that moment is between, uh, uh, in, in episode four, the loveness of the moment between Obi-Wan and Leia, just, just holding hands on the transport.

[00:51:46] And for me, you know, we haven't, we've mentioned it, but like, God, I feel like we haven't talked enough about the acting because you're right. Hayden Christensen has done some in, in when we've seen him. He's done some really nice work, you and McGregor. Although this is not a surprise has done some really nice work.

[00:52:02] I gotta tell you Moses Ingram. I, there were moments where I was like, I, I wanna see her get a little more, I can't, I can't quite get a handle on what her her range is because there's a lot of anger there, but I gotta tell you that moment, her reaction when Vader in the beginning of this episode, when Vader tells her to kneel and she's going, and in my mind, what I could see on her faces this ex this, this restrained excitement, because either she's gonna be promoted or she's gonna be killed, it could be either one of those things.

[00:52:29] And so the moment of looking at her, like just her expression really did it for me. So I, I agree with what you're saying, Josh, I I'm getting these, these, these, um, moments on the story that I didn't realize that I needed, but Jon, going back to what you were saying, those moments really make everything else work.

[00:52:49] They make everything else go because I was talking to James offline today. And he was saying that some people have been nitpicking about, um, you know, there's not enough depth to re his character and I'm like, I disagree. Um, but moments like that make me go. I don't think I just disagree. I think you are incorrect.

[00:53:07] I

[00:53:07] JONNY: yeah.

[00:53:07] CHRIS: there depth there. Right? Because I think that sometimes you can watch, um, uh, watch, uh, some, whether it's acting or writing and subjectively you might go, all right. I could see why you'd say that. I disagree with you, but sure. And then objectively, there are moments where I go, no, objectively you're wrong.

[00:53:24] You may not like what they did, but this was a fine bit of acting. And I don't know if you feel similarly about any of that, Jon.

[00:53:31] JONNY: Oh, a hundred percent. This, this reminds me of a funny little, uh, kind of a joke my friend said in the past, but, uh, I, I knew someone that didn't like the rolling stones and one of my best friends was talking to him. He's like, Hey man, everybody has their opinion, but you're wrong. Um, which I thought was kind of funny, but anyways, I connected to that though.

[00:53:52] And I think this kind of goes along with like what prequel fans expect, because I don't think people that are of the OT generation, uh, think this way about Reva. I, I, I think. I think I could be projecting, but I think, um, this could be a prequel thing where in the prequels, uh, like it, or hate it, people in, in that series kind of said what they thought, you know?

[00:54:18] Um, and the nuance kind of the nuance wasn't quite there. And now we're back in the day of nuance. So like, I think people are like, I don't get it. She doesn't have enough range. And it's like, you're not paying attention to her. Facial ticks her body, her tone of voice, her inflection. She says a lot by the, with the narrow tunnel that she has, of her dialogue.

[00:54:43] She does the most she can with it, which I think she's doing really well. Like I was saying last episode, when she goes to torture Leia, it's clear. She's not, she's not enjoying it. You know? And then this episode when, uh, You know, when Obi-Wan realizes that she's not serving Vader, she's hunting him. Uh, you can see the fear and sadness in her, in her face and her delivery when she's like, you know, I lost the only family that I knew.

[00:55:11] Uh,

[00:55:12] CHRIS: And you were supposed to protect us. Where were you?

[00:55:14] JONNY: Yeah. Where were you? And she's almost like she's saying that like a, like a child to her, to a, a father or something like that. Like where were you? Like you were supposed to save me. And then when one keeps talking, she's like, stop, stop enough enough. Like, like it's, it's that's range, man.

[00:55:31] Like there's a lot in there. And even when

[00:55:33] CHRIS: really thought about that, but I think you make a really good point about what they expect from their actors. Cause I do know that like there are times when you're, when you're watching acting. I, I remember when I was teaching some students about comedy and I was explaining the idea that like, you know, not everybody's funny in every moment, one of you has to be the straight man in this moment and I showed them who's on first and they weren't quite following what made it funny.

[00:55:53] They couldn't understand why both actors weren't equally taking up space and it's like, that's, that's not how it works. You as an actor, you have to create negative space for other actors to exist in. Um, I think that's a really, really good point though, that you've made that I hadn't really considered before, but yeah, this is, you might be right.

[00:56:10] This may just be what they are expecting from their acting. And so they're looking at this going, like there's not enough range. Meanwhile, we're looking at it going like, that's really impressive. I like the

[00:56:18] JONNY: Yeah. Like, like from day one, I was like, yo, Moses is fucking killing it. And then

[00:56:23] JOSH: I mean, not only

[00:56:24] JONNY: come out and they say that, and I'm like, what are you like? It's like, it's like, they want her to look at the camera and be like, this is what I think. And it's

[00:56:30] JOSH: no, I mean, not

[00:56:31] JONNY: that's not interesting, you know?

[00:56:32] JOSH: I mean, not only that though, it's like, when I saw that first episode and I was reading the discourse around the character and they were saying all the things about her that they didn't like as a character. Like, I mean, even the people who were like trying to separate, Moses Ingram's performance from the character, like, they were saying like, she's so arrogant.

[00:56:53] Like who does she think she is? You know, like she's like, she's impulsive and I'm like, you mean, you mean like Anakin Skywalker,

[00:56:58] JONNY: she's a mirror of Skywalker.

[00:57:01] JOSH: she is literally, she is all the same qualities that Anakin had.

[00:57:05] JONNY: yes. It's like, I like, are you, are you it's like, she's supposed to be just like Darth Vader. Like

[00:57:11] JOSH: yeah. I mean, like that one is a little hard. That one is a little hard to unpack because like it's like,

[00:57:16] JONNY: Mm,

[00:57:16] JOSH: it's like how much of it is like, media literacy problems and how much of it is

[00:57:22] JONNY: Is it misogyny? Is it literacy? Is it, this is what

[00:57:26] CHRIS: whole story? Is it, is it all of it?

[00:57:29] JONNY: and, and I, and I don't

[00:57:30] JOSH: no. I mean, it is all of it.

[00:57:31] JONNY: to backed a little bit, like, I don't wanna shit on people that love the prequels. I think it's a very beautiful thing that these prequel fans, uh, grew up and like kind of showed the world how valuable those movies are, you know?

[00:57:46] Um, but I, but I do think there is that this is just a theory, but I do think there's that level of like the prequels or like on paper, tell you what everything is. And I think they expect more of that. Like, just tell me what it is and no matter how complex it is, they can follow it. But they're just used to being told that compared to things that like are said under the surface with like not, you know,

[00:58:12] CHRIS: right. They're not looking for no text. Can you elaborate if

[00:58:14] JONNY: Yeah.

[00:58:14] The, the subtext. Yeah, exactly. Like, I think subtext is kind of like lost a little bit

[00:58:19] JOSH: no, I mean, that's an interesting, that's an interesting theory. I mean, we could do a whole episode about that. Um,, I have a question. I wanna hear what you guys think of this. I've read some people say that they think this show looks cheap. And I'm wondering what you guys think about that, because I think I understand what they're talking about my thing is,

[00:58:44] CHRIS: if you think, you know what they're talking about, would you mind elaborating.

[00:58:46] JOSH: yeah, well, I mean the show I think , is a little more limited in scope in terms of like,, how, grand it is, the scale of it, which I think, I, I think I understand where that's coming from.

[00:59:01] But my read on that is like, you know, there's a time and a place. And I feel like this story, this episode in particular they're underground and it's like, it's very claustrophobic and, not everything has to, be sort of a CGI I'd up environment where there's something going on in every frame, like in the prequels.

[00:59:20] Like another thing that I, read in several places was, , the dual between, , between Obi-Wan and Vader and episode Obi-Wan invader in episode three. , a lot of people they didn't really like the locale. It was sort of like a mine that didn't really look that fantastic, but that's kind of what I liked about it.

[00:59:35] It's like, they're, they're fighting in the ruins of like, you know,

[00:59:39] CHRIS: the, that

[00:59:40] JOSH: uh, this like burned out galaxy that, that the empire is creating, you know,

[00:59:46] CHRIS: I was just gonna say, I think that, to me, that sounds like a fundamental misunderstanding of production and storytelling. I think that you're talking about, you know, that's like watching the show carnival and going like it's cheap. Look at their clothes. No, no, no, those, those are not, that is not cheap production values.

[01:00:01] That's like, then, you know, somebody who goes, uh, you know, is producing a play and goes, well, let's do well. Let's do steampunk. You basically just glue shit. No, no, no. Do not do steampunk on a budget because that's not how steampunk works. And so I get the, that to me, sounds like a fundamental misunderstanding of not understanding that fundamental misunderstanding of what.

[01:00:21] Goes into production. And what goes into storytelling too, because not everything, you know, if you watch the, the first fight between Vader and Obi-Wan, maybe you're disappointed. Maybe you're disappointed that Obi-Wan doesn't put up more of a fight. You thought that should have been a better dual. The choreography is not meant to.

[01:00:37] This is when choreography is, is done poorly. It's not meant to just look cool. Choreography, fight choreography should always advance the story. And that's what each fight so far has done. And I feel the same way about where these stories are being told. So the idea that this is somehow cheap or something, I think that that portrays a fundamental lack of understanding with regards to how production works, but also what good storytelling is because when I was seven, I wanted every fight to be protracted and cool.

[01:01:11] Cool looking. I mean, Josh, how many times did we film. Lightsaber fights in your backyard. And we tried to make it longer and just incorporate cool jumps and stuff. And like, but it wasn't telling a story, good choreography, good production. They contribute to storytelling so that I, I wholeheartedly disagree with that assessment.

[01:01:31] Go ahead, Jon.

[01:01:31] JONNY: well, uh, you brought something up that I thought was a really good point. It was like, don't do steam punk on a budget, like, and you specifically said, uh, a play. And I think people forget that there's a, there's a big difference between, uh, TV and film. Yes, they are technically both using maybe there's the same technology and cameras and stuff like that.

[01:01:54] But in film, you ostensibly have an infinite budget. With infinite amount of time, if you're making a movie like, uh, and then when you're making a TV show, you don't. So I know what they're talking about, but to me it's because it's just the nature of TV, for instance, in this episode, um, you know, they're in the underground cave and everything like that, location, location, whatever.

[01:02:19] It's not about the location, but everything's kind of lit like they're on a stage and the lighting of that environment is not dynamic. It's all kind of, I don't know, flat or static or something like that. And, um, that's because of the nature of the way that they had to shoot it. Uh, but you know, given the volume, like we were talking about this last episode with the limitations of what the volume can and cannot do, um, I think they probably did the best that they could maybe if they spent more time having, you know, uh, single beans of light.

[01:02:57] Noir setups and dynamic like shadow depth of feel that, uh, focus and like all these things, it would translate better, but they don't have the time. Likewise, you're talking about the Josh, you're talking about the dual, the dual and the mining area. A lot of these shots in the show, especially in the last episode, very hand, uh, handheld kind of in your face, you know, that is its own aesthetic, uh, which is valid.

[01:03:23] And I feel like maybe people wouldn't have thought that way, but the mind fight if they had a good 2, 3, 9 aspect ratio, David lean, Lawrence of Arabia wide shot, where Luke and Vader are really small in the frame, kind of like Ray in front of the star, destroyer in the sand dune on J. And you could be like, wow, look at this scope.

[01:03:44] Like I think those things are baked into our head because the original trilogy is inspired by Cara and shit like that. The themes are still there in the show though. So I, I kind of look at Obi-Wan Kenobi as like watching battle SAR, Goa 20 2003. And that's very close handheld and stuff like that. And those aesthetics I love this is just a different thing.

[01:04:09] So like, if they're gonna make a movie, it would look different than what they're doing now. And I just accept the fact that like, it's a TV show. It's not gonna look like a movie. So there you go. Like, and I think they're, they, I think they want like movie budget shit. Even if you watch the Marvel show is like, they don't look like the Avengers because they're on that Mar they're on that TV budget because they, they can't, they can't shoot eight episodes of like, you know, last Jedi budget.

[01:04:39] Shit. That's insane.

[01:04:41] JOSH: Yeah. I mean, I think, both of you guys are right. I think for me, the limitations that, you know, maybe for some, it feels like this show is running up against in a negative way. For me, it's a really, , good marriage of the style matching , the content like this is a nitty gritty, Moment in the galaxy between the larges and the opulence of the prequels and that sort of wide angle lens view of the galaxy.

[01:05:09] And now we're zeroing in like, getting in, to what it's like on the ground for these, people who are like really Huling together, underground in, caves, trying to hide from the, boot or the fist of the empire. Right. And the, personal, the personalness of what's at stake here. the galaxy isn't at stake. It's like a handful of lives. It's a handful of, \] people. And it's about what's going on inside Obi-Wan. And what's going on inside Vader. Like I think using the flashback in this episode to basically explain the thought process of these two characters, is not something you would, do in a star wars movie.

[01:05:47] CHRIS: Right,

[01:05:48] JOSH: So, so it's just like a different mode of storytelling. And like, for me, it's like,, just sort of matches. It just sort of is what it is. It

[01:05:55] JONNY: Yeah. And as I said to Chris earlier, when he made the illusion to a play, it's like people forget that TV and film are different. It's a different mode of storytelling, like you

[01:06:04] JOSH: mean, the lines are, are blurring, but that's

[01:06:07] JONNY: Yeah. But it's, there's still a distinction, you know? And on, on top of that, how many times in this show did Deborah chow put a handheld camera right into you?

[01:06:17] McGregor's eyes to sell a moment. And I could, I could stare at an extreme closeup, you and McGregor all day, because the shit that he's doing behind his eyes to emote his shock or, or his pain or his, um, uh, uh, euphoria and this show is amazing. Like, and, and they did it with the door when he. You're not serving him, you're hunting him.

[01:06:41] They did it when T dies and he gets on his knees and it's just in his face. And like you said before, it's like the toll of her death. And like, he's just sick of this shit. They did it when he found out that Anakin was still alive. They do it when he's holding hands with Leia. Like, I mean,

[01:06:56] CHRIS: they do it when he is watching he's they do it when he is watching Luke through the binoculars.

[01:07:01] JONNY: that's new trailer.

[01:07:02] Like it's just, and you see like you see the Crow, his feet on his eyes and they get in there and it's like, and this is a really intimate show. So it's like, you sacrifice one thing for the other, you know, and sometimes, uh, you know, you get someone like Michael bay who is all about the, the scope and the spectacle and all these things, and you get these mindblowing sequences, but he might sacrifice a lot of the drama to get to those moments.

[01:07:34] And

[01:07:34] CHRIS: See, I'm really.

[01:07:35] JONNY: show is doing. It's like this show is like, this is all about character and drama. Yes. There's some cool choreography and stuff like that, but there, as long as we're getting the drama and the character, right. Which is, I think something that we've all been thirsting for, uh, with these characters in particular, it's like, I'm willing to forego a bodacious, like X wing battle in space.

[01:07:56] Like, is this totally fine?

[01:07:58] CHRIS: the notion of, of the trade off and sacrificing one thing for another, because I really appreciated that, that if they, and maybe they did it and I just didn't notice, but I did not see any evidence that they tried to make. Um, Hayden Christensen look, his AP his proper age.

[01:08:14] JOSH: Yeah,

[01:08:15] JONNY: I agree. And I thought that was really

[01:08:16] JOSH: did either. I don't think they did anything. Yeah.

[01:08:19] CHRIS: I don't

[01:08:19] JONNY: and it's, it's actually better that way. I

[01:08:21] CHRIS: And it was, oh, and I, and I totally agree because while we, while we look at it and go, he clearly looks older, we also get to see. Everything that's going on behind his eyes. He gets an opportunity to, to act, and he's not acting through CGI of them. Trying to make him look younger because as good as, as good as Tarkin looked for rogue one, they were never, ever go.

[01:08:45] And I don't think they were trying to, because they knew they couldn't do it, but they never, ever could have gotten what Peter Cushing could do, right. With his, with his expressions and with his eyes. And so I really appreciated that they went, we have a choice here because they obviously have de aged characters before we have a choice here.

[01:09:01] We can either just put Hagan, Christensen out there and let him act, or we can make him look like he's the same age he was. And they went, okay, fuck it. Let him act. And it was totally the right call,

[01:09:14] JONNY: Yeah. And this, the, the, the beautiful point of what really well illustrated, because as I was saying before, when they put the camera in, Y's face, they're putting the camera in Hayden's face in those scenes too.

[01:09:24] CHRIS: right? They're not trying to hide his age by keeping distance from his face. They're not hiding it at all.

[01:09:29] JONNY: Every wrinkle or in crinkle that you airbrush out is a little bit of nuance in his face that you're taken away from his performance.

[01:09:36] And, uh, so when you, uh, Obi-Wan says to him, like, you're so concerned about winning that you, you, that blinds you when he loses and he teaches him that lesson, you see a lot going on behind Hayden's eyes in that moment where he's considering it, and you see an eager pupil, you see a naive kid, you see all these things, even

[01:09:58] CHRIS: You see, you see

[01:09:58] JONNY: 40 year old

[01:09:59] CHRIS: child. You see Abud child who's in trouble for going too far too.

[01:10:04] JONNY: exactly. And it's like, I could definitely suspend my disbelief, seeing the face of a four year old, 40 year old doing that over like a distracting. I've mentioned this before, when we talked about rogue one, when, um, Leia turns around and you see her and she says hope, and then it goes straight to your credits.

[01:10:21] And my reaction to that was like, what? Because she just looks so weird and then the movie just ends. And I just, I would've preferred if it were just like. I don't know, like just don't show her face or something like that. And so, but with Hayden Christiansen, it's like, we know he is Anakin whether he's 40 years old or 20 years old.

[01:10:39] He's Anakin so it's a lot easier to believe that compared to like a CG face of him being Anakin

[01:10:46] CHRIS: Right.

[01:10:46] JOSH: Yeah. You know, and I would be remiss if I didn't, , point out that he looks very, very good for

[01:10:53] someone that's like 20 years older than yeah. He looks, he looks amazing. So any closing thoughts for part five and any hopes for , the last, I can't believe that the show's almost done. We got one more part of the show to go I'm bummed.

[01:11:07] CHRIS: I'm really glad because I really think this story is going to, I've complained about this with comic books. As much as I enjoy comics, I've complained about stories that just keep going. And I, as, as, as sad as I am to see it go, man, I gotta tell you, I appreciate when a story ends and I want more and I know I'm not gonna get it, but it's satisfying.

[01:11:26] I felt that way about the expanse. Um, and I think I'm gonna feel that way about, about Obi-Wan, Kenobi two. I think I'm gonna be sad to see it end because I was so excited to, to get him back for a while and, and, and get to share some time with him. It's gonna be sad to see him go, but, but I'm really excited for whatever the hell it is.

[01:11:45] They have lined up for episode six with, with. Still being alive and apparently getting this thing. And obviously now I, and I am a big Jimmy Schitz fan. So really excited to that bail is apparently gonna be on tattooing. Like there's a lot that's going on here. Um, I am, I am excited to see the story end and not be ready to let it go.

[01:12:06] Yes.

[01:12:08] JONNY: Yeah, I'm with you. I, uh, I've talked about this recently, uh, about other things and how it's, it's hard for me to invest in a TV show, unless I know the creators who are like, we know the ending, the shows only I'm gonna be X amount of seasons and that's it. And then if they, when they're like that, I'm like, I will watch your show because they're, they're doing, they're telling a story as compared to like, we'll see how long we can pull this fucker out.

[01:12:34] And so, uh, I, I heard rumors that, uh, they might do maybe like another Obi-Wan mini series or something like that, which will be cool, but either way, they're still thinking about it as like, this is a one and done sort of thing, which I love. Um, I, as you mentioned earlier, Josh, I don't know if it was on the podcast or not, but literally have no idea where this is gonna go.

[01:12:55] Next episode, we know they're out of, uh, hyperdrive fuel. We know the Empire's right behind them. We know Reva found the communication from bail to Obi-Wan. She knows about tattooing and uncle Owen. She already met uncle Owen, which by the way, I'm glad I would love to see Joel Edon back because he was so good.

[01:13:14] And, um, we need to get more of him, but don't know. And I, I love not knowing. And I love the fact that like Reva could either go to tattooing to either stir shit up or to maybe redeem herself who knows, uh, are Obi-Wan and Anakin gonna see each other again, is qu gun gonna finally show up hell is the emperor gonna show up?

[01:13:36] Because he hasn't even popped up once. So it's one of these things where it's like next episode could be anything. And the fact that there's so much weighing on it for character. I just feel that by the end of it, I'm super curious to see where Obi-Wan Kenobi's gonna be in his, uh, mental state in emotional state.

[01:13:57] And, um, Just to see if he's that much closer to Alec Guinness or, uh, at least, uh, a bunch of the

[01:14:07] JOSH: No, absolutely. I am very, very excited for part six. I think Chris, you said it, you put it very well. , I will be glad that this story, wraps up before it's worn out. It's welcome. , and I don't know the, the way that the show has been, , designed thus far, that makes me feel like they have something very specific or had something very specific in mind for what,, this final episode is gonna be.

[01:14:33] And, because they've nailed all of the character moments. At least at my estimation, I'm really, really excited to see what this all has been leading up to. I hope I don't, I'm not sticking my foot in my mouth, but I really have a feel like they are gonna really stick the landing on this one.

[01:14:51] CHRIS: Can, I can't imagine unless they have like some sort of a creative stroke and you go, what, what, what just happened? Uh I'm I'm with you. I can't imagine they don't stick

[01:15:00] JONNY: Uh, I have a feeling that this show is gonna like maybe age like a wine, you know? And I feel like it has high replay value because it's only six episodes long and people are gonna watch it yet. People are gonna watch it over and over and over again. And they're gonna pick up on more and more things. And I think

[01:15:20] JOSH: I was

[01:15:21] JONNY: it more.

[01:15:21] They watch.

[01:15:22] CHRIS: I do not feel the need as my son gets older. If he gets into star wars, I do not feel the need to, as I enjoy the Mandalorian, I don't feel the need to show it to him. I don't feel the need to show him some of the cartoons like rebels I enjoyed, but I don't need to show it to him, man. I'm gonna need to show him what one can I agree with you?

[01:15:40] A hundred percent. I think it's gonna age extremely well. And more than any other show they've done. I think it's going to be included as part of like the watching order of the cannon.

[01:15:50] JONNY: agree. A hundred percent. It, it seems very, very, um,

[01:15:54] JOSH: It seems vital in a way

[01:15:55] JONNY: yes, that's the word? That's the word vital. It seems very vital and, and not just vital for, uh, can or, or, or, or story. I think it seems vital for the future of star wars. I feel like, um, as a storytelling medium, this show just seems extremely important in a lot of different.

[01:16:17] JOSH: Absolutely. And on that note, if you like what you heard, please visit trash com pod.com, where you can rate and review us or pod chaser.com/trash com pod and rate, or review us. And we are trash com pod across all social media, and we will see you next week for part six.

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Sometimes I make things.

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