June 3, 2022

Their Fire Has Gone Out of the Universe: OBI-WAN KENOBI Part 3

Their Fire Has Gone Out of the Universe: OBI-WAN KENOBI Part 3

Fear, fire, and making racism bad again.

We talk fear of fire, bad meditation, and making racism bad again in our discussion of OBI-WAN KENOBI Part III.

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[00:00:00] Josh: Welcome to Trash Compactor. I'm Josh and joining me in the junk pile today is Murray.

[00:00:08] Murray: Oh hello.

[00:00:10] Josh: And once again, on loan from the Secret Origins of Mint Condition, uh, one of the co-hosts Chris,

[00:00:17] Chris: there.

[00:00:18] Josh: And today we are going to be discussing episode three of Obi-Wan Kenobi, guess the show doesn't have episode titles.

[00:00:26] Murray: I noticed that. Yeah. It's just part one, two and three and yeah.

[00:00:29] Yep. It's

[00:00:30] Josh: bad. I love me. I love me a good episode title.

[00:00:33] Chris: no, I think there's some really good ones out there and they've, they've done good work before, but like, this is really feeling like a movie to bridge the gap and that's why I got the impression that they were using just part one part two part three, because it feels like this is, you know, a whole movie here.

[00:00:48] Josh: No, it absolutely does. And I think you're exactly right. I think in a lot of ways, like I said this last time, but I really do think that this is really kind of like episode three and a half, I can't help, but think that if star wars, you know, episode four, wasn't the first.

[00:01:04] Uh, movie in the saga. Like I can't help, but think if it were happening chronologically that, that we would get some of this at least a little, in that fourth movie. Uh, but I degress even, you know, right off the top. Um,

[00:01:18] Chris: No. I know. I really well I'll get to it later because I'm already like revving and ready to go.

[00:01:24] Josh: okay, well, so let's start right there. Uh, Chris overall reactions to this episode.

[00:01:28] Chris: So overall reactions, I really, I liked it made me so uncomfortable. This episode made me really uncomfortable at all. Um, there were just these, these elements of, uh, frack being such a fun and friendly design until he says, it's nice to meet with some like-minded folk. And I was like, Ooh, that sounds really familiar.

[00:01:49] Especially I'm I'm in the Midwest. So especially in my part of the country that is particularly familiar over the past, like five or six years that I've, that I've lived here of the, of the last 10. So that was, that was made me uncomfortable. OB one, when he says, uh, you know, he says, I a brother, I remember a brother, but I, uh, you know, that makes me sad sometimes, but then I found a new family and I was like, Ooh, but did you though like that, that really, that really made me uncomfortable.

[00:02:18] Um, so there were all these parts of the episode that, and when Leah says, you know, are you, are you my father?

[00:02:24] Murray: Brutal.

[00:02:25] Josh: oh, yeah.

[00:02:26] Chris: oh, how long is she sitting with that? Right. Like how long was she looking at him going? Do I ask the question? So like the episode made me really uncomfortable overall. I really liked it until the very end at which point, uh, it kind of turned for me and it can be one of two things either.

[00:02:41] There is a plot of foot in which case we're good or there isn't. And I find it very, very lazy writing. So, so overall I enjoyed it. But Josh, you were talking about this being, um, um, oh gosh, you were talking about how this could be that that be its own movie, right. Three and a half. And it would be perfectly.

[00:03:00] You know, when, when my son Eli, when I'm, when he's older and I can introduce him to the, the, the movies and not just the concepts, like the droids, um, and the light sabers, I would totally start him with will be, I really want to start with Obi-Wan Kenobi because even though that kind of ruins the Luke and Leia storyline, man, what a great introduction to Darth Vader.

[00:03:23] And I don't think it undercuts a new hope at all, but I got to tell you when OB one is meditating and try and talk to and he just says, he's coming master the fear in his voice. Oh, oh, it made, it sent chills down my spine and he sounded really afraid. And it was really in line with the universal monster Vader that feel that we got from rogue one.

[00:03:43] So big feelings about this episode, but that's in a very large nutshell.

[00:03:47] Josh: Murray overall thoughts.

[00:03:49] Murray: I loved every second of it. And I thought like, okay, well, this is just going to be the hype of watching it. And then I watched it again before this. I was like, no, I fucking just love every aspect of it. Like, I think the there's so many things that I love about it. Like I love, and this is not, uh, a dead, cause I think it's enhanced with makeup, but I just love how old OB one looks like, because it's not like old, like he's an old mint.

[00:04:14] It's old. Like almost like before and after pictures of like most presidents or, you know, like was just like everything that they feel and endure and can't act upon and they have to do like, it just all written like in their face. Like if you look at like Lincoln, like, and then Lincoln after, uh, like I get, well, not after he was president, but, but you know what I'm saying?

[00:04:35] Like, uh, before he

[00:04:36] Chris: that was, that was an interesting choice, Murray, but

[00:04:38] Murray: Yeah. Before, before he went to the theater. Um, but like, it's just like, you could just see like how much he aged in such a small amount of time. But, so I liked that. I liked that. Um, Obi-Wan is he's like, so focused on trying to get to talk to that he's like kind of standing in his own way, but not realizing it, like, they show shots of him as he's meditating.

[00:05:06] He's like fidgeting with his hands and he's just like trying, it's like, clearly his mind is racing and that's not, that's like, he's just standing in his own way because he's trying so hard. And so I love that. I think like Layah, this girl is just crushing it. She's just so good. Um, and, and the, the end, like I. Especially, I think talking with, with the whole crew from the trash compactor is just like, kind of opened me my eyes to how little I actually do care about Canon, like personally. Like, because unless it's like completely like completely undoing or like shitting on it. And I don't, I don't care as long as it's good.

[00:05:54] I think that's Josh. you.

[00:05:55] said that once, like as long as it's good, like that's all I really care about here. And so like the fact that there, yeah.

[00:06:03] there's a line in a new hope that makes it seem like the last time they met was. Back what, well, okay, this is going to, I can't go on tangent yet, but it's like, but anyway, they put so much weight to that line where he's like, oh, but I was, but the learner.

[00:06:17] And so they're like, oh, people are like up in arms about this, but it's like, I don't care. Like I don't all, all that really matters from that original interaction from a new hope is that it's been a long time. And we see Luke is a little kid here, so yeah. It's still going to be a long time if they only meet over the next few, like days the lightsaber glow.

[00:06:37] I absolutely love the fact that Obi-Wan who like, you know, is known for thinking that blasters are uncivilized, like knows that he hasn't touched a light saber in 10 years. And so

[00:06:50] Josh: No, when you really get that impression as well, like he's, he looks very uncomfortable with

[00:06:55] Chris: Absolutely.

[00:06:56] Murray: Yeah. He doesn't know how to like, hold it in the fact that like, we're getting back to Vader, just one arm, like, and he's knocking Anakin around with the one arm, not even like using the force, like there's a cool. With when he forced pushes, which is like in an earlier battle that they had in revenge of the Sith, like OB one was able to like counteract that, but now he's just getting pushed around the light of the, the glow of the lights.

[00:07:22] They are just, I don't know everything about it. I absolutely loved, um, I'm interested to hear what Chris says about the lazy writing. I'm sure. I'll agree. Um, but it's just, uh, I don't know everything about this was, I was just like, this is what I love and just, I don't know?

[00:07:38] I there's something about the glove, the lightsaber, whatever he was, he was so dark and so like

[00:07:42] alone.

[00:07:43] Josh: I thought of you because, we just released a few weeks ago, the empire strikes back episode that, that, uh, long conversation with me and Jon, where one of the things that you said was, the one thing, the only thing that you could think of that could possibly improve the movie is

[00:07:59] Murray: Yes.

[00:08:00] Josh: the glow from the lightsabers on their faces.

[00:08:02] Right. Um, so I thought of you, but actually I was getting, vibes from this fight, similar to the Empire Strikes Back duel between Vader and Luke, the way that I very much get the impression that Vader's holding back a little bit. He's, he's kind of, he's toying with Obi-Wan

[00:08:21] Murray: Yeah. He wants

[00:08:23] Josh: he's not going full force. He wants to drag this out. , because like he said, he wants him to feel the pain. He says your pain has just begun.

[00:08:32] Murray: Yeah. Yep. He wants to like torture him. That's like the whole thing. So I, definitely get, like, if you guys have cats, like if they ever see like a mouse, they don't always just go for the kill. They will like toy with it. Like it's, you know, they don't, you see if you get to them in time, you could actually save the mouse and you'll find that as no, uh, bite marks, no claw marks.

[00:08:53] Cause it's just like playing with it before it like, goes for the kill. And I think Vader's a lot more sinister than that, but, um,

[00:09:01] Chris: I,

[00:09:02] Murray: I feel like the same principle.

[00:09:04] Chris: I think, I think like it's, it's one of those things where I feel like I can say yes, I can appreciate that possibility. I can appreciate the possibility too, that this is a trap after all. He's the one who decided to, to put the tracer on the fault GYN and it's Mo it's targeting who says this better work manner.

[00:09:19] Um, so,

[00:09:20] Josh: Oh, that's true. That's a good

[00:09:21] Chris: that's Vader's idea. So like, so if there was a plan in place, I'm good with it. But the cat and mouse thing, the, one of the reasons I have difficulty with it is because this is pre new hope. This is pre rogue one. I would, I would argue an angrier crueler Vader than we've seen. I mean, he's pulling town, random towns, folks out of their home and choking them, but then breaking their necks.

[00:09:44] Like he's not just tossing them around. Right. He's murdering them while staring at where he knows OB be one is hiding. Um, so there's a cruelty there and he's absolutely trying to make what we one hurt, but in Justin, Justin, the way that rogue one, he absolutely does not want those plans to escape. And in a new hope, the way he like rages.

[00:10:02] And he says, tear the ship apart, you know, uh, bring them back to me live. Like he, he just he's so, so angry. It's hard for me to, to really buy the notion of he's going to be patient about this, because I think if he, it just for me, um, yes, he wants this to last. Yes. He wants a torture to be ongoing, but he also, I really don't think he wants to lose OB one, which is why he brings all the inquisitive.

[00:10:28] And comes with the stormtroopers, like he shows up. So for me also, the reason I think one of the reasons I think it bothered me was because a lot of the fight from start to finish, there were moments that bothered me. So for example, Obi-Wan ignites his lightsaber out of instinct after spending so long resisting the temptation to do so. It felt like a bit of a missed moment. The fact that when he first sees Vader Vader ignites his lightsaber will be one thinks about it, then doesn't do it.

[00:10:54] And then he does it out of instinct. It just felt like a missed moment to me. .

[00:10:57] Josh: that's interesting.

[00:10:58] Chris: Like it, like, and again, it doesn't ruin it for me. Like I'm very much like a no overall I liked it. , but for me it was also sort of an easy fix in this notion of like, she, she blows things up. Okay. If, if he, she had accidentally partially ignited Vader, the notion of him being so enraged, that he turns on her, like Frankenstein's monster in like his fear and his pain painted his anger and loses Ben in the process.

[00:11:26] Thus enrage him further. Fuck I'm down for that. Like, like to me, it just, it felt like they were right on the verge of a thing that made more sense than the choice they made. I don't, there were times where I want to be able to fill in the gap and I'm like, sure, I didn't need you to spell this out for me.

[00:11:43] I can put it together on my own. This was one of those moments where I don't want to have to make excuses for why Vader, let OB one get away. You know what I mean? Um, especially because it was, it was built in, I don't know how important that that woman is moving forward. Um, but man, if he rages and just goes like rampaging after her and then loses them both like, oh, that's going to set up some serious, serious rage that he's going to take out on others.

[00:12:07] So it was just little moments like that. I think that that overall, uh, bugged me and then as for the, I was put the learner, now I am the master. I think they can still anybody who's complaining about that quote and it being validated, I think is wrong. There's still plenty of time for Vader to be shown as the learner in this series.

[00:12:26] Um, so I feel like I'm less worried about that, but that's how I felt about it. I don't, I don't know if that makes

[00:12:30] Murray: For, for

[00:12:31] Josh: no, that makes total sense.

[00:12:32] Murray: for me, like \ , there is a sense.

[00:12:33] of like dramatic irony right. Where we know that no matter what Obi-Wan and layer are going to be okay.

[00:12:39] Chris: Right, right.

[00:12:40] Murray: Vader is not gonna die. Like, but we're still on edge, which is crazy like that the whole scene in the back of the truck we'll get to that.

[00:12:45] But like

[00:12:46] Chris: Oh, my gosh, I clenched so hard. So I'm with you?

[00:12:49] Murray: Yeah. Um,

[00:12:50] but like, you know, what, if, if they want to like play around with all the gray area that's in between, like now and Alec Guinness, like, like 10 Vader cutoff, like OB one leg, and then we don't know, like, you know, like,

[00:13:04] Josh: you mentioned, so you mentioned something really interesting that, that, um, so when he, when Vader, , pulls him into the fire and he was in there for, for good, I dunno,

[00:13:15] Chris: Yeah, he was in there for a

[00:13:17] Murray: going to feel like an eternity, regardless of how it's loud, short, it

[00:13:20] Chris: was, he was, uh, he was flamed kissed.

[00:13:22] Murray: Yeah.

[00:13:23] Josh: no. Yeah. So, so, and then we see him for a second. We see his arm, like, I think he's, he's, he's pretty injured. And then it occurred to me that, you know, when we see Alec Guinness star wars, he's completely, covered in his robes. Like who's to say that, he wasn't horribly injured.

[00:13:39] And that was the first moment where I got kind of scared in a way that I wasn't before, because you know, like you said, Murray, like, we all know he survives this. Like he's not going to die. But it had never occurred to me until that moment that, well, sure. He doesn't die. but he could get maimed.

[00:13:58] He could get like really

[00:14:00] Chris: Yeah.

[00:14:02] Murray: Hands and limbs and stuff,

[00:14:03] Josh: Yeah.

[00:14:04] Murray: what Luke's hand turns into like a regular flesh hand, you know what I'm saying? So it's like anything could happen. And So, that is a bit nerve wracking. yeah,

[00:14:12] Josh: I dunno, I guess I hadn't really thought about it that much. , but yeah, like the idea that Vader would want to make Obi-Wan suffer the way he suffered His goal is not to find him to kill him, , when I was rewatching it, the camera lingers on Vader, through the fire, and even, , there's a shot from behind Vader where he's very still ahead and he's just sort of staring at the fire.

[00:14:36] A part of me wonders if he doesn't really know exactly what he wants to do with Obi-Wan or now that he finally has him in front of him, maybe he's not feeling the way that he thought he would feel. Because obviously, like, it was very clear to me or seemed very clear to me when the fire reignites and, um, the loader droid is dragging Obi-Wan away.

[00:14:59] You know, it seemed like that was the kind of thing. Like, you know, Vader could walk through that fire. He could probably, he could probably extinguish that fire through the fire. And then another part of, he was like, you know, maybe he's even afraid of fire

[00:15:11] Murray: That's what I

[00:15:12] was thinking,

[00:15:12] Josh: Well, so, but

[00:15:13] Murray: for where he lives

[00:15:14] Josh: Exactly exactly he lives. Yes, exactly. Yes. Yes. So, but I think, because of how long the camera lingers on him, quiet, just kind of standing there, I have a feeling there's something going on in there that, that, uh, we're going to learn about, , because otherwise,

[00:15:30] Chris: I think, no, I think you're, I think you're a hundred percent. Right. And if they do that in episode four, Like disregard the, the complaints that I have a hundred percent, because like I said, in my mind, this is very much a movie. And so when it's all out, I'd be watching in succession on, well, why did he let them go?

[00:15:47] And I'm soon to find out. So if there's a, like, if there's in my mind, a solid reason for it. Great. If there isn't, it'll just be something that bugs me about it. I don't think it invalidates the story or

[00:15:57] Murray: it's tricky because it's tricky because you could see both things happening because star wars has played a long game before with stuff, especially Mandalorian and stuff, but then they've also have a history of being like, all right, well, we clearly need them to meet again. So we have, how are we going to get him out of here?

[00:16:13] Um, but it is

[00:16:15] Chris: Go. Sorry, go ahead.

[00:16:17] Murray: no, I, it just, I don't like, yeah, I don't know if that's lazy writing or if there's a method to it because he got to also like, flames want to stop them because he could also just pull Obi-Wan through the flames. Like without going through, you don't have to extinguish them. Like for the force, we'll go through the flames.

[00:16:37] It's not like, that's like, um,

[00:16:39] Josh: Chris, uh, you know, you use the phrase lazy writing, which you have to admit, like, I have a bit of a visceral reaction to, I don't quite, I don't, I mean, I don't quite like that phrase, but I don't really have, a better one to replace it.

[00:16:52] So

[00:16:52] Murray: or maybe lazy storytelling or something like.

[00:16:55] Chris: I wouldn't

[00:16:55] even, I wouldn't even say lazy. I would say that in my mind that it's one of those things. I think when you, as a writer, when you write yourself into a corner, and this is something that I mentioned about the good place, uh, at several junctures in, um, in, on the secret origins of main condition, when you write yourself into a corner, I think you need to be able to write yourself out of said corner.

[00:17:16] And I think that, um, you know, you were the one who got the story there. You're the one who got yourself there. Um, I don't think that there's not a way out. It's just, I, I, when you set up that situation for me, it's kind of like, I feel like the responsibility is on your shoulders. And sometimes I, I, I, I want to see a more elegant, I think, solution.

[00:17:37] So maybe it's not a lazy thing. It's that the writing felt kind of clunky to me. If

[00:17:43] Murray: the nose and cliche. Yeah.

[00:17:45] Chris: A little bit like,

[00:17:46] Josh: you know, it might not even necessarily be the writing. Like I could see, you know, in the script it says, it says something like, the fire reignites and, Vader and Obi-Wan are separated by a wall of fire or like a chasm of flame.

[00:18:01] You know, you imagine one thing in your head, uh, and then you see the realization of it. And it's like the wall of flame, you got looks pretty through a bowl. And you're

[00:18:11] Murray: Yeah.

[00:18:12] Josh: that's not exactly what I had in mind when I wrote that. So,

[00:18:16] Chris: That and you're right. That makes sense.

[00:18:18] Murray: Yeah. I mean, I've had things where I've written like a short script and then we go to film it and I'm just like, oh fuck. I was only thinking about like three specific shots. There's like So,

[00:18:26] much filler that I need in between like the storyboards I have in my mind.

[00:18:32] Chris: And I've done that with stage, for sure. There are certain images on my, in my mind as a playwright that I'm like, this is how I envision it. And it's like, Nope, that's a, yep. I can see how you would interpret it this way. Instead of that way.

[00:18:45] Josh: Murray I think you mentioned that, you can see the years on Obi-Wan space and not just the years, but like the, the stress and, um,

[00:18:53] Murray: of everything. Yeah.

[00:18:54] Josh: yeah. Um, I think this is the most human that we've ever seen.

[00:18:59] Obi-Wan

[00:19:00] Murray: Yes.

[00:19:01] Josh: you know, you really get the sense that he's terrified and he's, um, he's, desperate and, one of the things that really struck me, , when I watched this episode a second time was the degree to which he, he doesn't believe that anyone is capable of. Doing good anymore. The whole reason, the whole reason they were captured was because he shows up, to the meeting place. And almost immediately he decides, oh, well, he must've been lying.

[00:19:32] Nobody's coming.

[00:19:33] Murray: Yeah.

[00:19:34] Josh: had he waited a little longer than they wouldn't have gotten on the truck? They wouldn't have shot all those, stormtroopers of the, um, the Tala character, I believe is her name. She, um, she wouldn't have had to blow her cover by shooting those stormtroopers and it's all because he was so quick to, presume that Kumail Nanjiani had lied.

[00:20:00] then again, even later when, in sort of the, um,

[00:20:03] the bunker, the hideaway, he asks her like, why are you doing this? Like, you know, why are you risking your life? He can't even conceive why somebody would be helping them. Right. Like, like, really think through the experience of the show, we're going to see him.

[00:20:21] Rediscover his faith in, people or go through something, realize something, see something that, makes him rededicate, redevote himself, to the mission. And, gives him a degree of, peace and purpose, I guess, to borrow a phrase from the last Jedi.

[00:20:39] because you know, when we see him again in star wars, he's light years away from the man that we're

[00:20:44] Murray: and I mean, like I get it and they, they do have a hint towards it that how lost he is, because they, um, you know, like, uh, Joshua say that, like, racons not a bad word, especially when it's done. Right. And so it's like, I do, I don't think that they're rec conning medical Koreans. I just think that they are.

[00:21:05] Just not, they're getting away from any sort of emphasis on it. And that's why they're going back to like almost the mystical stuff. But he describes the, the light side of the force as just, um, like as if you turn on a light when you're scared of the dark and it like helps, like you're not as scared anymore, but he's clearly struggling with that.

[00:21:26] And like, I, I get it with all that he's gone through because like, I mean, again, this is what I'm famous for, right The Bible and depression talk. So for me, when I'm in, in those, when I tend to get very on the works, cause flea was in this, I get very nihilistic when I get like depressed, I believe in nothing of asking, but like no, where I just get. To be like nothing. Like what does it matter? Nothing matters. Like, it's just, I'm very Anton HSA, gore, like, you know, you followed all these principles and it just got you to the other side of my shotgun. So like, what good is it? Like that's, that's where I go. And it's like a constant struggle to Not do it.

[00:22:04] And it's something we touched on in the empire strikes back episode in which the way that Yoda describes the force. There's a very thin line between like nihilism and. You're a part of everything, you know, it's like, no, you're a part of the trees and the dirt, cause we're all made of this crude matter.

[00:22:25] But then it's also like, well, no, we're just, these people are rocks who gives a fuck. They're like, you know, their grains of sand, like, and so that, that verb, that razor thin line that, um, OB wants on now between like, is, is the crude matter? Like why everything's important. or is it just like, there's no good in anybody and everybody that I ever trusted is dead.

[00:22:47] And the other people like over through the Senate and, and the empire, Um, came. And so,

[00:22:56] Josh: you know, that's interesting. You're making me think, he probably feels abandoned, like the force abandoned him. He probably feels

[00:23:02] Murray: for sure.

[00:23:03] Josh: He really feels like, you know, a man who, is not just on the run and in hiding, but also who has lost his faith.

[00:23:10] Murray: Yeah. A

[00:23:11] Chris: Well, how could he not, right. Like, we're talking about the forest being the thing that makes you feel safe and, and makes you feel better when it's, when it's dark, that you've turned the light back on. Um, and instead this really, this really robbed him. Right. In a way because Anna Kim was supposed to be the chosen one, all the signs were there.

[00:23:30] If his faith was really that strong, I don't think it's that much of a leap to come to the realization of like the force misleading you to the point of ruin, where you've lost your family, your adopted family, and you've lost your brother. Right. So, and then not only that, but like on a cosmic scale, you've lost two.

[00:23:49] So like how easy is it? I think to feel betrayed by your faith and go fuck it. Why, why would I believe in Jesus? Why would I believe in a God who would let this happen? You know?

[00:24:00] Murray: A hundred percent yet?

[00:24:01] Josh: I don't think that Obi-Wan has ever had his faith challenged before.

[00:24:07] Murray: No,

[00:24:07] not that I've seen.

[00:24:09] Josh: yeah. And, the way that he talks about, like, even in this episode, he talks about, he was taken from his family when he was young and. he found a new family in the Jedi. He's never known anything. He's never known this kind of, desperation, loneliness and hardship.

[00:24:27] And the other thing that really struck me, , which you just mentioned, Murray, the way he describes the force, when Leah, she asks him what the force feels like, and he says, you know, the feeling, , when , you turn the light on, in a dark room or something like that, that, you know, reframes, , the light side and the dark side, good and evil, not as a spectrum, but that light and goodness is something you bring is something you do, right. and, you know, similarly to one of the reasons why I really, respond personally to, where we find Luke in The Last Jedi and, you know, one of the lessons, that I think we're supposed to get from that movie in that story of Luke is that, goodness is not something inherent.

[00:25:16] It's not something that you just are, it's something that you, you do and you have to work at, and you constantly have to rededicate yourself. Like it's a choice that you have to make over and over again. And it's, it's, it's not, it's not easy. It's not a choice that you make once and then you're done.

[00:25:33] Okay. You're good. It's something that you, um,

[00:25:36] Murray: it's a practice.

[00:25:38] Josh: yes, it's a practice and it's constantly challenged and it's not always easy to make. That choice every time. And I don't think that Obi-Wan has ever had to do that in this way before.

[00:25:49] Chris: Well, and you know, props to this, this, uh, this you and McGregor fellow, he might be going somewhere. He might be.

[00:25:55] Josh: He's, he's fucking phenomenal in

[00:25:57] Murray: yeah.

[00:25:58] Chris: And the moment, the moment when he describes the force to me, it felt as though he was doing it reluctantly, because it's to talk about, it must be incredibly painful if that's not how you feel anymore.

[00:26:09] Murray: especially if you don't believe it. Yeah. A

[00:26:11] Chris: So if you're, if you're feeling, if you have this acute sense of loss, this was a thing that you, you had and have no longer, um, man, that's, that's gotta be a really difficult thing to talk about.

[00:26:23] And so that moment, I think, I mean, he's got a lot of immune, McGregor's got a lot of those moments in this show of, of, like you said, this is the most human we've seen him. I'd have to go back and rewatch, um, clone wars, the, the series to see if he has those moments of doubt. But I don't remember him having really doubt.

[00:26:40] I remember Yoda and akin and, uh, soca, all having doubt, uh, and some of the clones too, but not so much. It will be one. like you both said, I think that's a great point, and this is the first time we're seeing him. That moment where he has to, where he feels the need to describe it.

[00:26:53] I think he wholeheartedly means that that was how he felt and to have that taken away is, and have it replaced by darkness has got to be such an insanely painful thing. So, so props to this, this, I think it's pronounced you in McGregor fellow I think really he could really make a go of this acting

[00:27:12] Murray: And it's it really like is amplifying. How scared he is when he sees Vader

[00:27:19] Chris: Oh yeah, for sure.

[00:27:20] Murray: So when

[00:27:21] Chris: He looks so human, right.

[00:27:22] Murray: yup. And when he's talking about, he's telling her like, no, it's, you're just not afraid. Like, you know, you, you're almost like it makes you not scared. And then we see that he's very much scared these very far from the, oh, hello there or whatever, you know, like a hello there

[00:27:38] where he

[00:27:38] Chris: What he says, he says to grievous no, a hundred percent you're right. And it contrasts so nicely with, because again, I think from, from the way that we see Vader armor up from the way that we see him, uh, the, the way the camera lingers on, especially from below, as he's looking through the fire and watching that universal monster feel to him contrasts.

[00:28:00] And I think, again, I think we'll see some, some of Anacon and not just a Vader, but that

[00:28:05] Murray: Yeah. Cause why

[00:28:05] would you.

[00:28:07] Chris: of it contrasts so nicely to, to really emphasize Obie one's humanity in this series. So I'm right there with both of you,

[00:28:15] Murray: Yeah. There's no reason to cast Hayden Christianson if he's just going to be in the Vader suit with James Earl Jones voice the whole time. But like the, the interesting thing too about, uh, Obi-Wan is, um, uh, the character and the show too, but like is, as we're saying, like, we've, we've never seen him that I know I haven't seen the cartoons, but we've never really seen him fail even when he dies, he's succeeding. right.

[00:28:39] And so like all of this. Is everything that he's never felt before. He's feeling all at once. And for like 10 years, you know, like, I, I, when Josh, when you were talking about like how doing good is something that you, you just do when you have to keep doing, and of course we're going to fail, but, you know, uh, speaking to, to the playwright, Chris, like Samuel Beckett has that great quote, waste to fail again, fail better. Right. And so like, and that's what it comes down to with like doing good and trying your best is like, you can't throw the baby out with the bath water. Like it just, when you, when you fail, just all Right.

[00:29:12] well, you're going to fail again, but you'll be better at it. And everything. And OB wants, never had that.

[00:29:17] He's never he's he had doubt saying like, I'm not ready. And then the whole Jedi council was like, bullshit. You're ready. Like, who cares? Like you're, you're, you're like, you know, he's never even had like time to sit in

[00:29:28] Chris: Well, he didn't even, he didn't even have that doubt because what happens is it's, it's quite gone who says to the Jedi council, you know, uh, it's Yoda who says to , you

[00:29:36] Murray: Well, when he says I am ready,

[00:29:38] Josh: Yes. He says,

[00:29:39] Chris: as I'm writing Astro, I'm ready for the

[00:29:40] Murray: Yeah.

[00:29:42] Josh: Oh, you know, which was interesting, Chris, because you brought this up in the last episode because they do show that moment in the pre-qual recap at the beginning of the first part

[00:29:49] Chris: Yeah, they do.

[00:29:51] Josh: And, you know, and you mentioned, you know, maybe he wasn't ready for the trials and I feel like this is his trial.

[00:29:58] Chris: This is true. Now that's a great point. I hadn't really considered that, but you're absolutely right. This is, this is his trial, right? Because his responsibility is, is not just Luke, but his responsibility was layer two. It's just that they were delegated, right. Like Les was supposed to go with with bail.

[00:30:13] And so he was going to be responsible for Luke, but, but technically

[00:30:16] both children were his responsibility.

[00:30:18] Murray: Obi-Wan actually is strengthening, uh, specifically strengthening The Last Jedi for me. So Josh, you'll love to hear that, but like, you know,

[00:30:27] cause it every, every like, um, you know, with, um, layer like Mary Poppins, like out in space, like the fact that she's four set.

[00:30:36] Like if, if you just get the idea that she's for sensitive, it's still plays on it strengthens that moment. Cause you're like, oh fuck. Remember when she was a kid, she had like all this like good intuition. So like, I

[00:30:48] Chris: and also, I, you know, for all those people who complain about layup being space, Mary Poppins, it's like, Luke's done a lot of wacky stuff too, when you were fine with it in

[00:30:57] Murray: no,

[00:30:57] Chris: like you, you need to, you need to calm your horses

[00:30:59] Murray: no real, real quick tangent. I literally think the only thing wrong with that scene that didn't sell it is, it was hyper-realistic in the fact that like spaces a vacuum. So like nothing's moving. So it just looked like bad CGI, like motion graphics. Like if they would have given some sort of atmosphere that like rip rippled her like clothing, like it would not be like realistic.

[00:31:23] What, like it would have sold that moment more. I think

[00:31:27] Josh: You said something that just made me think of this how Leah is a force sensitive child. , the Indira Varma character. I think her name is Tala. The,

[00:31:34] Chris: that sounds right.

[00:31:36] Josh: Yeah,

[00:31:36] Chris: That sounds right. Yeah.

[00:31:37] Josh: um, when they're in the safe house and she's telling Obi-Wan a lot of people have come through here.

[00:31:43] And she's explaining to Leia about how the Empire is not only hunting Jedi. they're hunting everyone who's for sensitive and, and even children. And, they just disappear and nobody sees them again.

[00:31:55] I have to wonder if that has something to do with Grohe goo whatever. He's a part of in the Mandalorian, jumping shows for a second. Uh, but, uh, but, but, you know, yeah. You know, like when we're, uh, when we find grow GU. at the beginning of the Mandalorian, it seems like he's a part of some kind of Imperial science program.

[00:32:15] I get the impression that they're trying to figure out how to replicate, either middle chlorines or force sensitivity so that they can clone it,

[00:32:24] Murray: Almost like, yeah, it makes super like super, uh, soldiers out of it. What, the interesting thing not to, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to cut you off, but

[00:32:32] Josh: No, go ahead.

[00:32:33] Murray: definitely the light and dark side are two sides of the same coin, right? Because Obi-Wan is like, no, they took me away when I was, when I was a kid and Yeah.

[00:32:44] he went to the Jedi temple and he like started in stuff like that.

[00:32:46] But if the dark side stealing kids for whatever, from their family, like, well, I mean the, Yeah.

[00:32:52] exactly. The intention is different, but from the kid's point of view, it's not really that, that different, unless of course the other kids are getting like experimented on like in like stranger things, fashion, but

[00:33:04] Chris: Well, it also depends on who's who, why who's grabbing them. Right. Because that's just data is we don't know what's Imperial sanctioned. What isn't like, I assume Vader doesn't know everything. He certainly doesn't know what the emperor is hiding from him. So, you know, who knows what's going on? So there's an element too, of like, uh, yeah.

[00:33:21] How much dark web stuff are we looking at here?

[00:33:23] Josh: so let's talk about, what's the name of the mining planet? It's a Maputo or something like that. I'm a Puzo.

[00:33:31] Is that the name of the planet? Something. Oh, well, anyway, something that I really liked about, this sequence we're Obi-Wan and layout. Are traveling alone? And then they end up, they end up hitchhiking.

[00:33:43] and it will be one is describing what the planet used to be like,

[00:33:48] uh, before the empire showed up. And I think even, um, Riva, when she's describing the planet, she was like, it's a standard strip operation, that combined with, what we see of Jedha in Rogue One really, contributes to something that I've really appreciated about.

[00:34:04] The Disney era. you know, you really get a sense of material reality, the material, stakes for what life is like under the empire for like the average citizen, which is something that we don't really get, in the movies beyond like larger than life, kind of,

[00:34:21] gestures that over the top evil that, you know, we can't really relate to things like, watching a planet blown up, by a giant green laser from space. seeing these subjugated planets and seeing the living conditions I really appreciate how were seeing why life under the Empire is so terrible and that, brings us to Freck that the, uh, the friendly truck driver who gives them a lift.

[00:34:49] Murray: Yeah.

[00:34:50] it's, it's very interesting that, um, that they show also the generation gap in which layer is like, isn't the empire good. And having been pre empire, um, Obi-Wan like knows what it is, but he also knows. That there's people still in the system trying to win, like, but he knows what it is. Like basically, you know, the, well, they didn't have world war II, but it's basically like, no, these are, these are Nazis, but you still have some good soldiers trying to, you know, operation Valkyrie or whatever.

[00:35:25] Chris: Yeah, no, it's uh, no, I mean, it's,

[00:35:27] Murray: to everyone and frack, like, that's not, he, he is all for it. He's like, oh no, I like law and order. I like, uh,

[00:35:34] Josh: Yeah. He said, he said, he said nothing wrong with a little order.

[00:35:37] Chris: Well, let's you said, right? Like you don't get the impression he's. He is. He's very much the kind of person who. When you're looking at, in, in my opinion, when you're looking at things like white privilege, you know, there's a difference between white privilege and white supremacy, right. And just because you have privilege, doesn't necessarily make you a white supremacist, but there are a lot of people who don't identify and wouldn't be identified as white supremacists who say, look, I don't, I don't, that's not okay.

[00:36:03] That kind of violence. Isn't okay. I'm just saying that like, things need to calm down a little bit around here. Like, I feel a little bit threatened by this. I feel a little, right? Like he's perfectly friendly the whole time, but he also makes it clear that like, Hey, I found these people that I thought you'd want to check them out.

[00:36:18] Like he also, you know, he also narked on them and, and all because, you know, and this is something that I, I saw a lot here, again in the Midwest, living in St. Louis during, uh, Trump's presidency. There were a lot of people who said, you know what? I don't understand what the big deal is because I haven't seen any, you know, people are talking about the economy and what's happened to him, but like I got a rate.

[00:36:42] And it's that kind of like tunnel vision and that kind of personal experience that some people have and they go, I don't understand why people are bad. Mouthing him. I got a raise and I got to keep my job for the duration of his presidency. So I don't know what people are complaining about and that's sort of where we see him, right?

[00:36:58] Because all he says is a little bit of order and he's, and he's perfectly friendly the whole time. And this obviously works for him. Strip mining. The planet totally works for him because it's good business. He's doing okay. The stormtroopers are all really nice to him. They all know him by name. Right. He gives them rides and like he's, so it w this all works for him.

[00:37:18] The empire works for him. So we really get the, um, it's interesting because we really get to see privilege, uh, leveraged in this episode, by the same token. It's it's, I'm sure there are a lot of people from a lower standpoint that are going well. The empire hates aliens. That's true. I'm willing to start at that partisan.

[00:37:35] Josh: well, so, but that was actually something that I think was very powerful because, I don't think, if it were a human, it would really hit home in the same way.

[00:37:44] Chris: Sure.

[00:37:45] Josh: I think the fact that he is alien and the empire is, very xenophobic, the fact that he has it good.

[00:37:52] or the fact that he's personally not, on the receiving end of the worst of the empires, xenophobia means what he's willing to, to overlook. turn a blind eye to it's like, he said, nothing wrong with a little order, contained in the term, a little order is a lot of, a lot of stuff like the genocide of an entire, religious affiliation.

[00:38:16] Right. And, um,

[00:38:18] Murray: How, how much does the common person know about that? Do you

[00:38:23] Josh: well, well, He knows that the Jedi are being hunted, right?

[00:38:27] Murray: true, but it's like, this is where, you know, w to Chris's point, um, in that where things got muddy in our reality, in which you have the people like, oh, it's not that bad. Why is everyone complaining? Like, you know, like I got a raise. Yeah, This whole planet used to be thriving, but it's stripped. But like, no, it's, they're not as bad as everyone's like, you know, they're seeing it just from their point of view. So he doesn't know. Yeah. It's not like that. Um, what was that? The British, uh, was like, are we the bad? He's like, you know, he's not thinking that he's thinking that like, he's helped.

[00:39:02] No, I'm helping, like, these are our soldiers. These are, you know, um, and I'm helping them and I support them. And like, so he, from his point of view, he is not doing anything wrong. And if.

[00:39:14] Chris: Sure.

[00:39:14] Murray: If it is a jet, I then he's like, No, I did something like he would go home and you would be like, Hey, I found a Jedi, you know, I like helped

[00:39:24] Josh: that's exactly what I'm talking about. He may not know , the specific circumstances of what happened to the Jedi and why. , but he's also not asking any questions he doesn't want to know. Right. So he obviously is aware that, um, the Jedi are to be hunted, right.

[00:39:40] He knows that they exist and that they are, criminals and the empire is, hunting them down.

[00:39:45] he assumes

[00:39:46] Murray: terrorists, so

[00:39:47] Josh: Exactly. And he's not going to ask any questions. He will accept that at face value. Right.

[00:39:53] Chris: Well, and I think you're, you're a hundred percent right about that. And I think Josh, what's interesting too, because I'm just sending her thinking that, like, we also don't know how old frack is. Right. So it's one of those things where it's been 10 years, uh, since, since the Republic fell in, the empire was forged.

[00:40:08] Um, and so it's very easy for me to think back to our own experience with September. Uh, and you know, we were high school. We were living on long island, so we got to see the smoke and then we smelled it the next day. And, and, you know, we, we, so Murray, we had somebody, uh, who was one of our very good friends at the time who decided to join the army and I was doing it.

[00:40:31] He was doing it in the wake of nine 11, you know, uh, and he had, and this is, this is gruesome. So I'm gonna say it. And, um, you know, it's, it's, he had decided he was going to get a tattoo of a Griffin. And for every person he killed, he was going to color in a scale.

[00:40:47] Murray: Oh,

[00:40:47] Chris: Okay. Now these are, these are, again, not as an excuse or anything, but as an explanation, there is context, you know, being, being teenagers and seeing, experiencing our, what felt like our first act of war.

[00:41:02] It was easy to say for me personally, and I'm not gonna speak for anybody else. It was easy to say, go get them. And that is horrific. It's horrific.

[00:41:12] Murray: Oh yeah. Well, horrific from 20 something years later And having grown and

[00:41:17] Chris: Right, exactly. And from,

[00:41:18] Murray: the way of the world.

[00:41:19] Chris: but at the moment, that was what I grew up with. And for me it's like, well, how easy would it be for a frack to have been on one of those planets and gone, they were terrorists. And now that I'm a little bit older, I can see that the empire put an end to this terrible war.

[00:41:35] So yeah, we're the good guys. Right? So I, I digress just a little bit, but I think it's worth sharing that. It's like, for me, it's very difficult to not. And I mentioned this in the last episode, um, when we talked about the young Ling's in the temple, it's hard for me to not draw parallels with where we are and that may or may not have been intended.

[00:41:53] Uh, and I, I don't need to necessarily dig into that. I can only talk

[00:41:56] Josh: I mean, listen, I mean, listen, I think it was absolutely intended. I don't think that it was a mistake that the design of his speeder was very reminiscent of like a pickup truck. Right.

[00:42:06] Chris: I don't, I don't think so either. I don't think so either.

[00:42:09] Murray: With like the black flag at the back of

[00:42:11] Josh: Yeah. You know, which like, you know, by the way, like not for nothing, like, I mean, again, I'm revealing my, um, some of my stripes here. but that reveal of the Imperial, banner on the back of the truck. It's like, if your car broke down and somebody stopped and they had like a Trump bumper sticker on their

[00:42:26] Murray: or like a Punisher flag.

[00:42:28] Josh: Oh yeah. Right.

[00:42:29] Murray: Yeah,

[00:42:29] Like with, with blue lines through it. Yeah.

[00:42:32] Chris: the, Trump Punisher that we've seen, at least I've seen.

[00:42:35] Murray: Yup.

[00:42:36] Josh: I mean like this was specifically not an Imperial vehicle, right?

[00:42:41] Murray: It was crew, uh, cruelly, homemade. flag,

[00:42:44] Chris: Yeah.

[00:42:45] Josh: Yeah. That's exactly. So, so this was very specifically Kim, he's a citizen, right? He's, he's just an average, uh, you know, citizen mole of which.

[00:42:56] Chris: Yeah. Oh, I'm really sad that I didn't realize it until you said it just now. I don't know how I didn't pick up on that when I was saying, Ooh, I

[00:43:04] Murray: a mole or a Shrew? Yeah. Yup.

[00:43:07] Josh: Voice by Zach Braff, by the way, which

[00:43:09] Murray: Which I thought it was, Seth Rogan. I like I 100%.

[00:43:12] Josh: that a lot of people thought it was Seth

[00:43:14] Chris: one more instance, right. Of them taking a sort of celebrity cameo and it works it doesn't, it's not like, oh yeah, sure. Zach Braff, like, no, no, no. It totally works in the world. It's just, they fit. It was well done.

[00:43:25] Murray: Yeah. It's not ed Sheeran playing guitar and gave him.

[00:43:30] Josh: Yeah, I mean, like they went out of their way, like he's, he's not a member of the empire. you know, He's not like a janitor on the death star, right. Like he's, he's like, he's a guy with

[00:43:41] Murray: He's the guy that would probably take like an illegal firearm to a protest across state lines. Like that's like, kinda

[00:43:48] Josh: Oh, gosh.

[00:43:49] Murray: Yeah. I'm just like, I know that's like spot like a little on the nose, but like I'm saying, like that's the type of vibe that I get from him. Like, no, I'm going to be like, Um, um, helping, you know, like Ralph wiggle.

[00:44:03] Josh: So I think that it is, they are showing in this episode. And again, I really appreciate, , what this show, how it's depicting, what life is like , for ordinary citizens and the galaxy under the Empire. It's like, you can choose, like you don't like, you don't have to choose to go along with all this stuff.

[00:44:22] Murray: Yeah,

[00:44:22] Josh: uh, though it is, it is easier to overlook it.

[00:44:26] Murray: Yeah. Cause when we joined the first, like the original star wars, it's not, it's not really set or implied, but you almost think, at least I did. Cause I was young that like the world, their world, their galaxy consisted of empire and rebels and nothing in between like either you're like, and so the fact that now,

[00:44:46] especially

[00:44:47] Josh: like a rebel planetRE and an empire planet. So, so it's like, so there's no such thing as a non-combatant right. Uh,

[00:44:52] Murray: yeah. Yup.

[00:44:54] Josh: oh yeah, I totally get what you're saying. And I'm not saying that this is wrong because I think that the mainline movies are operating in a slightly different register .The movies rely on, the aesthetics and the iconography of an evil empire. Right? So, so we know, we know that the empire are the bad guys because, um, they have soldiers in scary armor and, know, Vader wears all black you can see that they're the bad guys and they do overtly over the top evil things.

[00:45:26] Like, you know, they blow up planets and they, they, they, they shoot our heroes. They, they shoot at our heroes. So we know that they're the bad guys. but they don't really get into the nitty gritty of like why the empire is really evil.

[00:45:38] Murray: That was something I was thinking today when I was watching him for a second time, I was like, at the beginning of the force awakens, like Finn is like, I need to get out of the stormtroopers. They're horrible. They're scary. It's like, well, it doesn't ever seem that bad. Like, you know, we get the one now, obviously it's bad, but you know, like it's so played down.

[00:45:56] It's probably more torque because of technology and stuff like that in the original one. But it's like, they just seem kind of like, I don't know, they bumped their heads and shit like that. Like they, you know, like, but, um, But for him to be so like, shook, like I need to not be a Stormtrooper and where I can't do it.

[00:46:11] Like this episode kind of showed me like, oh no, if like, I know he's not, because it's way, way, way too early. But like, if Finn was like a trooper in that village and you were just watching this guy, like break people's necks, just for like fun, you'd just be like, fuck, like what? All right, are we the Betty's, you know, uh, that would, it would register.

[00:46:31] So it hit me more this time then. Um, cause I never, I never assigned like any sort of emotion to the stormtroopers at all, but that's what, like Finn kind of like opened up like, oh no, they like, there's the factors and stuff like that. But it's like, no, if, if this is, if you sign on to be like, I'm going to be in the army.

[00:46:52] Um, and then all of a sudden you are accompanying inquisitors and they're inquisitors and they're just like killing people and torturing. Townspeople to try to lore one person out. You're just like, you'd have to be like, Okay.

[00:47:08] I, uh, oops.

[00:47:11] Chris: it depends. Right, because it, because it's also easy to spend. It's easy to spin it as well. They deserved it because they were hiding him. Right. Because that's, that's part of the propaganda machine. So, um, so I, I did, I appreciated that we got a little bit more time with the stormtroopers, uh, as individuals outside of like close the last door, I suppose the bus doors over the blast doors, glass, doors, you know, like that they're individuals.

[00:47:35] And Josh, you mentioned this in the last episode, I think, um, with regards to, you know, you get to see this, this clone trooper who's homeless and he's homeless vet and he's asking for money and then you get to see the new stormtroopers walking by and hear them interact as individuals. I liked that we got more of that in this.

[00:47:50] Murray: and then even on the, the, the truck I've at first, I was kinda like, well, if you're looking for Jedi's and then there's a stranger on this truck, like once, you know, but it's like, no, they are interrogating him. That's why it's like the one slip up that has healing jumps on it. Like

[00:48:09] Chris: Oh, I clenched. So.

[00:48:12] Murray: And like what a way to, what a way to take such a cliche, like trope and turn it into like, such a fucking moment. Like, besides like clenching, but you're just like, and then he has that like unspoken thing of like, I miss your mom like a lot. And you're just like her, like, you're strong. You're like Intuit, like, you know what I'm saying?

[00:48:31] Like, it's just like,

[00:48:32] Chris: No, it was, it was, it was a really nice way for them to recover in the script while still giving us a nice moment outside of it, too. Um, and also it goes back to what we were talking about again, in the last episode where it's like, oh, one is not good at subterfuge. Like at all, like he has this whole story and like three sentences into the exchange.

[00:48:51] He goes layer and it's like layer, you called her Leah. And he's like, Nope, fuck.

[00:48:56] Murray: I could definitely see like if we were going to like, all right?

[00:49:00] we're going to go in there and we're going to say that, you know, your name is Bob and my name is Joe. And then we would get in there and be like, fuck, was I Joe? Or was I

[00:49:07] Josh: yeah, exactly.

[00:49:08] Chris: No a

[00:49:09] Murray: they didn't have time to rehearse it. Yeah.

[00:49:11] Chris: how long has it been that he's really only spoken to this Jawa Tika, like.

[00:49:16] Murray: Yeah. Yeah. True. Yeah.

[00:49:18] Josh: Oh, you know, What's funny too, is you just made me think of, you know, they're in the pickup truck or the pickup speed or whatever. And the stormtroopers are like, yeah, I know they're looking for a Jedi and here's like this one random guy it must make it so hard for the empire and the Inquisitor's that like the, clothing style of the galaxy just happens to be like the Jedi uniform, because everyone just seems to be wearing these like roads, you know?

[00:49:42] Chris: I love these moments. Like when he gets off the speeder and the probe droid is approaching, I like that he pulls the hood up over his face because I understand why he does it, but I'm like, no, no, no, keep doing that. It makes you look more like a Jedi. Like it just, it just makes me laugh. But as he's trying to cover up his identity to me just looks like more of a Jedi kills.

[00:50:03] Murray: cause he, he was always seemingly the one in control, always. Like we, we very rarely see him. I mean, I guess a little bit in, um, revenge of the Sith, he gets like knocked out and stuff like that. Right. But like, um, which is more of just a replot device than

[00:50:21] anything else, But he's always the

[00:50:22] one in control.

[00:50:24] Josh: but even when he's knocked out, it's like, you never get a sense that he's he's really hurt.

[00:50:29] Murray: Yeah. Yup. And he's like passed out. Then he wakes up, like he's dangling

[00:50:33] Josh: it's a good joke. And the first thing he does, the first thing he does, he's like mildly annoyed and like he cracks a joke.

[00:50:38] Murray: Yeah. Yep. And so this is totally on new territory for them. And then it's just like, I don't know. So I was telling, um, friend of the podcast, Jon, that, um, You know, as like I'm not pinning them against each other at all, because they're both incredible, but like, Mandalorian is great and it's edgy. See it's emotional and everything.

[00:50:59] But like, there's something about this show that is resonating with me so much more than Mandalorian. And it's just, I, I think that I like get Obi-Wan I get that like struggle and that doubt and the, the, like the, of course being a sucker for a depressed hero. But even more than that, that he's just like, so like weathered and beaten down.

[00:51:18] And it's just like, cause that's how I've been feeling. Like every time we turn on the news or you talk to anybody, that's not like a close friend, you're going to hear some sort of shit that you don't want to hear. And everything's just like the worst. And so you just feel like so beaten down and then, so he's there, he's like crying out, like, come on.

[00:51:34] Like, where are you helping me? Like you, like, you brought me this far. Like what, where are you? Like? Um, and for 10 years now I've been told. Like that, like 10 years ago, I was told that you were trying to get in touch with me through like a force ghost, and I still have yet to make contact with you. So like, you know, um, cause that's at the end of revenge of the Sith, that's when

[00:51:58] Yoda tells them.

[00:51:59] Right. And so he's just like so completely lost and it's so great because I'm like a human, the human struggle of heroes is what makes them great. Like, you know, like we could blame George Lucas or whatever, but like, um, Obi-Wan has always been a very flat character. Right. He's he's, he's just as flat as like a bad guy is, but he's just good.

[00:52:25] Right? He there's no. Anything to him. He's just always like a chipper and cheerful and he's always in control. And so I, I always liked Obi-Wan just because he was a Jedi, but now like with this, I like Obi ones. Like my dude, like I'm kinda like, no, I'm always a Luke Skywalker person, but like this, I don't know.

[00:52:43] This is getting me like in the fields. Like Obi-Wan might be like

[00:52:46] Chris: Well, I think green, green goblin says it in the original Spider-Man movie with Toby McGuire. When he says people love to see hero fail, fall die. Like, that's what we're getting to, we're getting to see. Or with OB one, like I, one of my favorite parts of, of like role-playing and playing like Dungeons and dragons is like seeing the fall from grace.

[00:53:08] Um, you know, I like seeing a character fall from grace and that's what we've seen. And, um, and we continue to see OB one fall, but also struggle against that fall. We see him after he's, after he is sort of hit rock bottom, like he is now struggling to fight his way back to giving a damn, which is

[00:53:28] it's, it's tough to watch,

[00:53:30] but it's also encouraging to see.

[00:53:32] Murray: Paraphrasing, um, David Mamet what he's talking about, the hero's journey is he saying he uses religious imagery.

[00:53:39] So I was like right on board, but he's like, you know, when like people think that Moses, his hero's journey is leading the people out of. Egypt, but he goes, no, his hero's journey is he's up on the mountain with God. Like as face-to-face, as you can be safe and stuff. And then he's got to leave that to go back down to the people where they're like making a golden calf.

[00:54:00] And they're just like, um, um, just like turning away. And then he talks about like, um, Jesus in the garden, like his, his hero's journey is leaving the safety of the garden and having to face what's coming. And so like, that's where this show is really getting me is it's like, this is much more of Obi-Wan like hero's journey than we've ever seen before.

[00:54:25] Because even though he's like depressed out of his mind, he's like, he's, he's almost like even blocking out some of the stuff that's struggling, um, with like, because he doesn't ever have to, he doesn't have to deal with that. And he just goes to his. Tries to talk, you know, and then he goes to work and then just talks to a Java and repeats like he, yeah, of course.

[00:54:47] It's the worst thing for a depressed person. Like you said, last episode, but he's not like wrestling with this stuff. And now he's got a girl asking questions and,

[00:54:56] Josh: to the point in this episode, when he's in the safe house and he's learning for the first time that there are a bunch of other Jedi out there, and there is like this, like, I don't know thriving is the right word, but there is a, this underground that, they call it, the path I think, she says, and even one of his old, comrades, Quinlan, Voss, who, who I, I know, I think is in the clone wars cartoon show.

[00:55:21] Is that correct Chris or?

[00:55:23] Chris: Yeah.

[00:55:23] Josh: Yeah, so he had no idea that all of this was going on. So the degree to which he has completely closed himself off from, from everything that's going on, like he he's. really, I think shutting everything out. and obviously some of that is, is out of necessity.

[00:55:39] He has a job it's to watch over Luke and protect him and he's supposed to stay, uh, to stay on Tatooine. But I also think he's closing himself off more , than it's necessary, to do that. And it reminds me of something you said earlier Murray about how, when he's meditating, like you can see he's, he's, he's fidgeting and he's very agitated and you know, he's calling for and not getting an answer.

[00:56:03] And you said, he's getting in his own way. I have to wonder if when we eventually do hear from Qui-Gon, which I'm presuming we will in the next

[00:56:11] Murray: Yeah,

[00:56:11] Josh: of this show, that,

[00:56:13] Murray: how else w

[00:56:14] Josh: Why else would we be, why else would we be seeing this?

[00:56:18] Murray: And also how would, um, Obi-Wan know you, if you strike me down, I'll become more powerful

[00:56:24] Josh: Exactly, exactly. So, so, so we know that he does eventually get in touch with and, um, he receives this training that Yoda told him to get from Qui-Gon. But, I have to wonder if, part of the reason why he's not hearing from Qui-Gon is, because he is so closed off, he is so much in his own way.

[00:56:44] And again, I don't think he is ever had to deal with something like

[00:56:48] this before. So I don't think he's equipped, to pull himself out of the depression or the, the rut.

[00:56:56] Murray: And, if we are to trust what the Jedi say, even though they're always telling people to search their feelings and their emotions, but they're saying like, emotions are bad. Like, um, feeling feelings are bad, all this stuff. And so if Obi-Wan is, maybe he's not closer to the dark side at this point, but he's certainly further from the light side, because he's also just in like a cave feeling like a ton of emotions that he's always blocked out his whole life.

[00:57:24] He's like, you know, sad, alone, depressed stuff. You know, probably angry too. And like, I could imagine him getting angry if Yoda is like, oh, I talked to your master and he says like, he wants to talk to you. And you're like, motherfucker, you're talking to this guy. What I was you're like apprentice again, you're not, it's 10 years.

[00:57:43] You're not talking to them. So it's like, he's going to be dealing with all these like, emotions that aren't, if they're not bringing them closer to, to the dark side is certainly, he's not nearly as close to the light side. He's not feeling that fearless ness, you know what I'm saying? That the lights had supposed to give.

[00:58:00] And so, um, Yeah.

[00:58:02] it's really a struggle for him and that's why I'm just like, man, I love this

[00:58:05] Chris: Well, it's a nice contrast to that. I mean, I think from a, from a show standpoint that that OB one is mostly all alone and cut off from the forest and Vader is at the height of his powers and has no shortage of lackeys between the stormtroopers and the inquisitors and whatever is going on between him and Reva.

[00:58:23] Um, you know, there is no lack of resources for Vader. So I really liked seeing the juxtaposition of the, of the two of them, one with everything and one with basically no.

[00:58:35] Murray: and you see that again, back with the fight scene is like OB scared. He's way overpowered. There's one point he's like almost holding his lightsaber, like backwards. I think he got himself twisted up and then he's got to like fix his hands. And I don't know if that was intentional, if that was just something that happened in the choreography, but it's like, now you're coming.

[00:58:54] You, you haven't fired that. It's been buried for 10 years. You haven't fired it up and you're truly, you, you don't trust your instincts to die, like to deflect and Dodge, like you used to like, so you're using a blaster you're, you're, you're running and you're hiding. And then when you're fighting this, this person that you once beat at once taught, he's like, W like Molly whopping you with one hand, like, it's just like, and he's getting rocked and it's just, and he's like, he's sweating and he's scared.

[00:59:26] And you're just like, this is such a good, yeah. Like just juxtaposition from what you would think with the light side and the dark side. And it's, um, with Riva, I think that's her name, right? Riva. Um, it's interesting because she's so devoted and. Uh, time and time again with Vader, but she is so devoted to him, but like, he doesn't care about her in the slightest because like, he was clearly close to the inquisitor, which I'm still short is alive, but like, but then she's like deal, pay for the inquisitor and, and various like, like basically I don't give a shit about him.

[01:00:02] Like now you go do what he was supposed to do. Like, you know, like everybody's expendable to him if like, and it's just like chess pieces, You know, to him. Um, and he just, he doesn't care how who's got to sacrifice. He's not close to anybody. He has no compassion or love or like, you know, anything like that.

[01:00:21] So it was just, everybody's just all pawn.

[01:00:24] Josh: You know, one of the things that I feel like the show is on its way to doing for me. , and I was thinking about this when I think early on in the episode, I think that Obi-Wan had some visions of Anika and in his robes, kind of in the distance. Am I

[01:00:38] right? That, that's what that was.

[01:00:40] Murray: Yeah.

[01:00:40] it was the first time he kind of gets like rocked, which almost seems like a panic attack, um,

[01:00:45] Vader's not there.

[01:00:46] Chris: Oh,

[01:00:46] totally.

[01:00:47] Josh: Con no, yeah, kind of a little bit, especially with the camera work, it's sort of

[01:00:51] Murray: yeah. Yep.

[01:00:52] Josh: it starts to go off

[01:00:53] a little

[01:00:54] Chris: My first, my first thought was that he, the tunnel had been opened and he was exposed to the, like the, uh, the remnant emotions of so many people who would pass through here that he was overwhelmed by it. Um, and I was like, oh, okay. That feels like a really heavy reaction to, oh Nope. It's Vader.

[01:01:11] Josh: That's

[01:01:11] Murray: Yeah.

[01:01:12] Josh: But one of the things I feel like the show is on its way to doing for me. And this is something that I mentioned, Chris on the secret origins episode about Vader that we did a few weeks ago. one of my issues with Vader is that the way, he ended up depicted in the movies, he sort of really a composite character you never really get to identify him with one human face, right.

[01:01:36] Chris: Yeah, no, no, no, you absolutely. And, uh, exquisitely, uh, had some discourse on that. Yeah,

[01:01:42] Josh: thanks. I appreciate that.

[01:01:43] But,

[01:01:43] Chris: I mean, it

[01:01:44] was great. So.

[01:01:44] Murray: episode.

[01:01:45] Josh: but, uh, one of the things that I think this show I think is starting to do and what I suspect we're going to see, comes to pass. I feel like the show is going to make me, , see Hayden Christiansen under the suit more rather than.

[01:02:02] Always having that distinction in my head between Vader in the suit and, , Hayden Christianson's and Skywalker, I feel like this is bridging the gap for me in a way, showing me something that that I didn't, know , that I needed to see, I frankly didn't think was really, , possible that there was a Vader story that I could see that would, , make the character work in the way I think he was intended, , to work and it really does blow my mind.

[01:02:32] That. they weren't sure whether or not, to bring, Vader, to put him in this show, because I mean, now seeing it this just seems like a story that, that needed to be told, right.

[01:02:48] Murray: Maybe there's room that it could prove me wrong and disappoint me a little bit, but it's not like Winky, like you're not seeing him walking around tattooing, like learning. That's like Sam people scare, uh, easily and you know, there's No. like Winky, like everything else is so like Winky And not with the exception of, uh, the Mandalorian.

[01:03:07] Cause that show is just so good. But like so much of stuff has just like, like, especially a Boba Fett was just like references. it's like we get it, we get it. It's the same unit. Like, but this is like not really doing that. It's just like, Nope, this is follow this story. This is,

[01:03:21] Josh: No. And it's really about, it's really about the characters as well. It's

[01:03:24] Murray: Yeah.

[01:03:25] Josh: it doesn't need the winking references, because what we're seeing this, this moment in these characters lives, meeting again after, the events of episode three is like, it just seems so a part of the fabric of what these characters and the story of this whole saga really are about To have like references all over the place and, winking, nods and stuff would just be like, gilding the Lily it's like, you don't

[01:03:50] need it.

[01:03:51] Murray: Well, that's what, that's what, like the fantastic beasts movies are now. Like, it's just like, everything's a wink to like Harry Potter. It's like, we get it. Like, that's why we're here. Like, you're not, what are you doing? Like, it's not like a surprise, but one interesting character thing that, uh, I want to bring up for Obi-Wan that's gotta be like killing him.

[01:04:12] Is. So you think that you killed your brother? Cause he turned to the dark side or you're someone that's as close as a brother and then you learn he's alive. So you're like, oh my God, he's not dead. But then when you encounter them, the only thing you could be thinking is, fuck, I wish I killed him. Like, he's just killing everybody.

[01:04:32] He's breaking people's necks just to get

[01:04:34] like

[01:04:35] Josh: See, see that. Yeah. See, that was something else also, we were talking about how terrified he looked and obviously he was, he was very frightened. Uh, but something else that I think he was also feeling was a like mixture of like horror at what he was seeing his brother do.

[01:04:51] Murray: yeah. Yup. And it's just like, and so it's gotta be that, like, I never want to kill him. It's been haunting me, but now I'm wondering if I should have, and then like the fact that like so much of Vader's life now seems to be spite because he. Egos. I became, I am what you made me. Right? So It's, of course there's no, nothing, no self-reflection on himself or Palpatine as I am.

[01:05:16] What you may be thinking that like, that OB wants talking about the physical manifestation, like, you know, like, oh, you're wearing black and have robot legs. Like, no, like he's talking about like, what have you become? Like, who are you like? And, and Vader even says you should've killed me when you have the chance.

[01:05:33] So that is just saying to like, oh no, I'm a rabid dog. And I'm aware of that fact. And I'm going to like do stuff to make you wish that you killed me. Like, like, fuck, like that's, that's brutal.

[01:05:47] Josh: it's so brutal. it's so brutal. And I think, um, that's why it's, you know, you said earlier, Murray, I think that's why it's resonating with you because, you know, and in another way, I think the Mandalorian is supposed to be a little more fun. I don't

[01:06:02] Murray: a space Western.

[01:06:03] Josh: Yeah, exactly, exactly. this show doesn't have a light, touch,

[01:06:07] Murray: No, and it's, and it shouldn't like, there's a funny story again, with John when he was reading, um, I think it was the fifth Harry Potter book and they're forming Dumbledore's army and people are fighting and like people are dying and then they just at, towards the end, when, before they go to the battle, they introduce like, Haggard's brother and he's this big giant thing.

[01:06:28] And John said that he just started screaming when he was reading the book because it's, it's building up all this tension and there shouldn't be any more jokes left. And then like, here's a goofy, like a character and it just like completely killed the vibe. And this show is thankfully not doing that.

[01:06:46] It's letting the serious moments be, be good. And any light-hearted type thing, like, oh, here's a cool alien. But like, there might be some light like tension and stuff, but it's still not like funny. This is serious stuff. Yeah. So,

[01:07:03] Josh: do we have any closing thoughts or predictions for, , what's to come?

[01:07:07] Murray: well, I mean, I think that, um, my, my thing, I kind of said it was that, um, quiet. Like ha like has to show which I'm sure. Like, it would be very impressive to me as, um, uh, a writer slash want to be writer at that. If they just let it be like, no, he just can't get in touch with him. Like he just, he can't like, he fails at this too, but it would be too much of a let down.

[01:07:31] They wouldn't do it. But like, I, my revelation was, I was thinking of, well, there was two things I was thinking of how he learns about like, being more powerful. Like if you strike me down, I'll become more powerful than you could ever imagine. Like he would only be able to learn that from, from quiet gone, because apparently the, the idea of force goes, it makes it sound like the first person to figure that out.

[01:07:55] You know? Like, um, because it hits like Ewan McGregor so hard as if he's never even heard the concept before, because by the time, you know, Return the, the Jedi happens, looks just like being like, oh, I'm going to see my dad and Yoda and everybody, like, that's just what they do, you know? Like they just die and come back as force goes.

[01:08:17] But, and the other thing, um, so I think quite gone, we'll, we'll be there, but I think the way he reaches quite gone is he read the note from his friend that said, um,

[01:08:30] what you're wearing clothes, like basically kind of like, you'll see the path or something like that,

[01:08:35] Chris: It was only when your eyes are closed. Can you truly see

[01:08:38] Murray: exactly.

[01:08:39] So that's, I think his, his like nod to, he's going to learn to like calm his mind and that's, that's really, what's going to happen. You'll stop being in his own way and just really quick. And then I'll shut up one quick question that, that secret hallway, did it have multiple exits because how did, um, Riva and,

[01:09:00] Chris: Leah come to? Yeah, I think it

[01:09:03] Murray: Or, or though the, um, the woman from game of Thrones, the sand snake, um, they, they didn't cross paths when she, when Riva was entering the hallway and she was leaving the hallway to go rescue Obi-Wan.

[01:09:15] So there had to be, uh, uh, other

[01:09:16] Chris: Your head. Yeah. There had to be multiple ways to move through there.

[01:09:20] Josh: That's the kind of stuff that as long as it feels right. Um, it doesn't really bother me.

[01:09:25] Murray: Yeah. I just overlooked it till I was like, I don't care. Like, but it did strike me, but nothing to prove anything

[01:09:31] Josh: , no, but I get what you're saying. Yeah. , what about you, Chris? Any closing thoughts?

[01:09:35] Chris: Yeah. Uh, I'm pissed off about this racist bullshit that Moses Angerman was going through.

[01:09:41] Murray: preach it.

[01:09:42] Josh: it's

[01:09:42] Chris: you know, it's just, it's just, it's we keep saying things like there's no place for that in star wars, but unfortunately there is, there is a place for that in star wars because

[01:09:52] Murray: the fandom.

[01:09:52] Chris: it, you know? Um, and, uh, it's, it's one of those things where it just, it just keeps happening.

[01:09:59] Um, I don't know exactly what kind of response I'm necessarily looking for. I know the star wars, Twitter account said, quote, your private welcome Moses Ingram to the star wars, family, and excited for your story to unfold. If anyone, it tends to make her feel in any way on welcome. We have only one thing to say we resist and to quote, which sounds nice, but also this keeps happening.

[01:10:17] So like, I don't know what kind of response I'm looking for, but, but it just, it just pisses me off that this notion of, you know, we can be in outer space. We can have aliens, there can be a magic forest, but God forbid we bout a Wolf culture and have black people in any sort of role. Um, if you want to criticize her acting, honestly, I'm not, I haven't seen a lot to indicate that I, I like her as an actor so far.

[01:10:43] So that's the kind of professional criticism you want to level fine. If it doesn't jive with you, her style, that's fine. But stop, just stop being a shithead, stop being a racist shit head. And that's, that's what I have to offer.

[01:10:57] Murray: the thing is if you talk to any of these racist shitheads, still not, they'll not, they'll deny that they're racist and they'll, but you'll find them saying things like you, like how I'm classifying them. Um, meaning all racists are assholes, but so, but they'll say things like, um, oh no, I'm not racist.

[01:11:14] It's just like, I'm tired of this world culture. And like people getting the role just because, or should go to the best person. And you just want to be like, No.

[01:11:22] but don't you see that the fact that you saw like a black woman in a TV show and your first instinct was, she's not the best person for the job.

[01:11:30] Like that's the, where the problem lies. Like she PR she very much probably like was the person for like the Right, person for the job. Like, you

[01:11:40] Chris: right. And even if she wasn't, we've seen bad casting before

[01:11:44] Murray: yeah. With white people

[01:11:45] Chris: you know?

[01:11:46] Murray: with white men. Yeah, of

[01:11:48] Chris: Yeah.

[01:11:48] Josh: you know, one of the things as well. Ewan McGregor recorded a video message that I think,

[01:11:53] Chris: Oh, yeah, I heard about that, but I didn't see it yet.

[01:11:55] Josh: Yeah. Uh, he very forcefully in no uncertain terms said that, , if you engage in this kind of behavior, like he doesn't consider you, a star wars fan and, it's disgusting and abhorrent and all that stuff. and, , the star wars, Twitter account and Instagram account posted it. , so, I mean, yeah, it's really sad. , I don't know what more, Disney and Lucasfilm could

[01:12:18] Chris: No mini.

[01:12:19] Josh: I do think, they have internalized some kind of a lesson from what happened with Kelly, Marie Tran and John Boyega because I was heartened somewhat, , to see , how quickly the official accounts stepped in and

[01:12:34] Chris: they did. They jumped on that faster,

[01:12:35] Murray: And it's,

[01:12:36] and

[01:12:37] Josh: you know, so that's something,

[01:12:38] Murray: there's something, weird too, because like, did Billy Dee Williams or, uh, Donald Glover, did they receive any fallout? Like, what is

[01:12:46] Josh: well, so this is the thing. So, so I mean, Donald Glover, I think because he was a known quantity already, like there's other sort of a, um, you know, fame and success, I think shields you, uh, uh, you know, a little, I

[01:13:01] Chris: then Lando is canonically black and was never a leader too.

[01:13:06] So.

[01:13:07] Josh: Yeah. I mean, like there was never a mean there wasn't social media and the, the, um, 1980. So, so I mean, so, so,

[01:13:14] Murray: have been saying this thing about M yeah.

[01:13:16] Josh: I mean, they could have the other thing too, is that, 1980 is only three years out from star wars. I don't think it was, the sacred, thing in, culture and even, like nerd culture and, , fandom, certainly star wars, fandom, looked very different than,

[01:13:33] Murray: Yeah. It wasn't cool. We were like,

[01:13:35] Chris: That's

[01:13:36] Josh: yeah, and also, yeah, and also, you know, I think social media has done something where you feel like you can say things without consequence.

[01:13:45] Chris: Yeah. And call a freedom of speech.

[01:13:48] Josh: And call it freedom of speech and this idea that because like you don't see the person that you're saying it to and because of the anonymity, you don't, really comprehend that, your words may have consequences or whatever, and, you know, and this isn't to excuse it at all, you know,

[01:14:06] Murray: If they explaining not

[01:14:07] Josh: yeah, yeah, just kind of an explanation.

[01:14:10] And then, of course the last five or six years, the social consequences , of expressing racism, have, perversely, not only lessened, , but in some circles , you're rewarded for it.

[01:14:22] Murray: And invited to speak at like conventions and stuff,

[01:14:24] Josh: Yeah. So,

[01:14:25] Murray: and then the thing that drives you crazy, and, um, I know I'm in. you know, like-minds here, but it's like, if you took the same actress doing the same exact performance, but you painted her blue, no one would give a shit. You know what I'm saying? Like, or where you gave her like that, like that skin, skin, skin,

[01:14:45] Chris: Yeah. As long as she's an alien fine. But if she's going to be like a black human, then it's not okay

[01:14:50] Josh: Well also something else though. you brought up the examples of, Donald Glover and Billy Dee Williams. I think another thing that, , we can't separate out is that it's not just that she's black, it's also that she's a woman.

[01:15:00] Murray: Yeah.

[01:15:01] Chris: for sure.

[01:15:01] Josh: and, I've been seeing a lot on my social feeds about, criticism of the character of Riva.

[01:15:07] That's not overtly racist or sexist, but that I can't help, but think, you know, look, the traits that she is, , displaying in the show, the impulsiveness, the arrogance, the not listening to anyone, you know, thinking, she knows, better than her leader that's anagen Skywalker.

[01:15:28] That's also, uh, traits of the Sith. So I can't help, but feel like if Riva was a straight white guy. The character wouldn't be receiving anywhere near the same criticism. It just really feels the reasons that I'm reading, why, people, either object to the character or even the portrayal of the character, and this is just my opinion, but I don't think you can separate it from, the fact that she's a black woman, because I mean, like I said, that's essentially exactly the behavior of mannequin Skywalker and arguably Aniket Skywalker is even worse.

[01:16:04] Murray: Yeah, he kills kids, but no, he's, he's cool. Um, but the thing is that like, To kind of say like a piggyback off of that. Is that what star, uh, what some star wars fans don't seem to get also is like, if you don't like a character, maybe it's because the character is supposed to be unlikable. Like she's not supposed to be a fucking good person.

[01:16:29] Like if she

[01:16:30] Josh: Yeah, but see, but see, but that's the thing. there are ways that, you know, villains are lionized, for their evilness and, female

[01:16:39] characters are yes,

[01:16:41] Murray: White, uh, Scarface, you know, all like, uh,

[01:16:44] Josh: But exactly you were to have a, a woman, especially a woman. Of color, play a character that did and said all the exact same things as a Scarface or a Walter White, I think you would be hearing the exact , same arguments about why they, they just don't like the character.

[01:17:02] Right? I think it's because they have a hard time when it's not a face that they identify with. I think they see the character, more for what they are, and they're not able to relate or, you know,

[01:17:14] Murray: To like, yeah. And cause also like, Vader it's, it's hard because Vader is his cool and you, you want to play as him in video games and just, you know, and you want to collect. Pez dispensers or whatever. Like, but he's not like a good guy, but like you were saying, he kind of falls into that thing where people like him.

[01:17:36] And I think that there is a struggle. That's why people, they fucking love, um, the Joaquin, Phoenix, joker. They like idolize him then like Travis pickle and, and all these people and like Jake Lamata, it's like, no, you guys are missing the point. You're not supposed to like them. It's okay. Like you're not supposed to like Joe Peshy in Goodfellas.

[01:17:56] Like, yeah, he's funny. And he's semi likable, but you're not supposed to like him. The only difference is you go like, oh man, I don't, he's kind of crazy. I dunno. I don't really like him. You never go. Not only fuck Joe Pesci, but fuck all Italians, you know, like you don't ever break it down that much. If you don't like the character, you just like, you don't, maybe you don't like the movie or, or whatever, but like you don't ever take it out of the context of the movie or the show like they do in star wars

[01:18:24] Chris: Well, I think this is where we start getting into that toxic sort of ownership. I see it in sports. Spans of a sports team that, you know, sometimes a team wins a championship and the, the fans burned down their city because they riot. And then sometimes that same team loses a championship and they burned down their city cause they riot.

[01:18:42] Like it's that ridiculous? That, that, that it's a double-edged sword of, it's nice to feel like we belong. It's nice to be part of a fandom. It's nice to feel like I get to share in the success of this thing that I love, but there's a dark side to it too. And you have to be able to acknowledge that, uh, that there's a dark side to it. And if you don't, we end up with what we're seeing. So. So I, you know, there's just, there's, there's a lot, there's a lot of this to dig up and I think some of it's worth discussing and some of it, I think isn't worth discussing because some of these assholes don't deserve the, the airtime.

[01:19:16] Right. Um, but I, I, but I appreciate what you both are saying. Cause again, like, I think it's important to, to try and dissect it because there, cause we say things like there's no place for racism and star wars except there is. So what we need to do is we need to shut down those safe spaces for racism

[01:19:32] by

[01:19:33] Murray: That's a very good way to put it Yeah. Like make it like, not safe, like to be a racist asshole. Like, I don't know.

[01:19:41] Josh: Yeah.

[01:19:42] Murray: way too comfortable now.

[01:19:43] Josh: Yeah. I mean, make racism bad again,

[01:19:46] Murray: yeah. And here we go

[01:19:48] Chris: Yeah. That's that's yeah. That's my insight.

[01:19:51] Murray: yeah. Make racism bad again.

[01:19:52] That's a, can we make a fucking, like a trash compactor? Like merge that's like trash compactor.

[01:19:59] Make waste res make racism bad again.

[01:20:02] Chris: Pub racism where it put, where it belongs in the trash

[01:20:04] Josh: in the trash compactor,

[01:20:05] yeah. Well, I am, I feel like the next three weeks are going to be very interesting, and, satisfying

[01:20:20] Murray: You think that there's

[01:20:21] Chris: enjoying what I'm seeing.

[01:20:23] Murray: Well, I, I wonder if it's going to end, like if maybe episode, uh, part five, she'll be reunited and then there'll be like a part six. Uh, Ben Newmont. That sound like an asshole.

[01:20:36] Josh: well, I think it's a foregone conclusion that will Obi-Wan and Vader are going to meet and fight again. Right.

[01:20:43] Murray: W well, that's, that's tricky because no one could win or lose that fight unless it's.

[01:20:49] Josh: well, so, well,

[01:20:50] Murray: And they would have to walk away technically if you're, if I'm going to be that asshole with Vader being the learner and

[01:20:59] Josh: Well, yeah, no, no. So, so, but that's exactly why I think that , they have to face each other again, uh, because I think that Obi-Wan through , some insights, some experience where he learned something, he, he has to school Vader.

[01:21:12] Murray: yeah. And he'll learn that from Qui-Gon and be able to school Vader, and then the next time they meet, I was what the learner, ah, love it,

[01:21:24] Josh: Yeah. So, I mean, that's, why, , I find it very confusing. , somebody who thinks that that line in,, a new hope is a problem because I have no doubt that they are aware of that line. And that was one of the starting point, if not the starting

[01:21:38] Murray: Yeah.

[01:21:39] Josh: for writing this. So, so I think, we are going to see some encounter where, that line will make perfect sense.

[01:21:48] Chris: Yeah.

[01:21:49] Murray: that's the thing in with the, the, as the star wars, star wars fan and shitting constantly on star wars fan, but that's where the struggle really is. They, they hate every star wars fan, except for us. Um, only sets deal in absolutes. But anyway, like I was saying every single star wars fan, that's not us.

[01:22:06] Josh: Maybe, maybe some CIS deal in absolutes, not all

[01:22:10] Murray: but like they, um, they're so

[01:22:14] the,

[01:22:15] Chris: think we're going to need some show notes to explain that one.

[01:22:17] Murray: uh, the, um, No, but like, they, they like hate watch star wars. That's their thing. They go like, I love star wars. I'm so excited for it, but they're excited to hate watch it because they leave no time for a slow burn. They need leave no time for a reveal. They we've noticed like, they'll be like, oh, the granite quizzer got dead.

[01:22:35] They broke cannon. Gaffin Kennedy's a fucking bitch. Oh, they fought like, oh, they, well, they just ruined Canon because of that one. Like they don't allow it to like play out fully before. They're just like, ER, I'm a racist idiot.

[01:22:48] Sowers fans. If you're listening to this, please keep listening. I just, um, I have my issues.

[01:22:54] Chris: know, it's just, it's, it's hard. It's really hard to be a creator. And it's easy to decide that you could be. Until you try to be a creator, right? It's one of the

[01:23:02] Murray: Yeah.

[01:23:02] Chris: saw during the pandemic, which is why I respect what Josh was saying about, you know, the reaction to the phrase that I'm not going to repeat about writing, because it's one of those things where during the pandemic we saw it, you know?

[01:23:13] Yes. We had first responders who saved us teachers, people who are working in the grocery store, like, yes, all super important. And artists got loved for a minute, for a minute, but there's still this notion of artists get paid too much. That's a thing I could do, blah, blah, blah. Um, and until we really start acknowledging that this is what gets us through the tough times is art, because this is a part of what makes us human.

[01:23:37] We continue to think it's easy to be a creator. I could have written that. Okay, well then go and do it. But I don't know what to tell you. It's not, it's not nearly as easy as you, as you think it is, especially to work within the confines of something that's already been created when you're following in somebody else's footsteps, you know, it's not so easy to create as you think.

[01:23:58] Murray: no,

[01:23:59] not at all. And if, yeah, we should end it on that note because it was so well said.

[01:24:03] Josh: thank you, Chris and Murray, if you liked what you heard, please visit us@trashcanpod.com trashcan pod on Instagram and trashcan pod. One on Twitter, for reasons that I'm not going to get into right now and, , please rate and review us,

[01:24:18] and we will see you next week for part four of Obi-Wan Kenobi.

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Sometimes I make things.

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